Author Topic: Double hit  (Read 2361 times)

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Midnight_v

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Double hit
« on: August 20, 2011, 06:12:26 PM »
Does anyone know if it can be used w/natural weapons? How about w/improved unarmed strike?
Thoughts? Should I be posting this in someones ask a simple question thread? I didn't notice one active is all.
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weenog

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2011, 06:23:41 PM »
The boards and their contents are being rearranged slightly.  The current Simple Question thread is now a sticky on the Min/Max It board.

Looking at Double Hit, it repeatedly makes reference to your offhand.  Natural weapons aren't offhand, the ones that aren't the primary weapon are secondary.  This feat seems to only want to work with two-weapon (or multiweapon) fighting.  You can make an offhand attack with an unarmed attack, so it should work with improved unarmed strike.
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JaronK

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2011, 06:35:58 PM »
Actually you can have offhand attacks with natural weapons, or at least with unarmed strikes (see the FAQ on Monks with TWF).  So, you'd have to have TWF and be using it for this to work.

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weenog

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2011, 06:48:18 PM »
Am I the only one that suspects there'd be a lot less confusion in mixed attack series and in feat functions if unarmed strike were its own category of attack type, instead of the weird fence-straddling it does between manufactured and natural weapon?
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Midnight_v

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 06:58:13 PM »
Am I the only one that suspects there'd be a lot less confusion in mixed attack series and in feat functions if unarmed strike were its own category of attack type, instead of the weird fence-straddling it does between manufactured and natural weapon?

Right, I'd like it if they gained a slam, but honestly the natural weapon progression being different is annoying too.

Quote
see the FAQ on Monks with TWF
Where's it located?
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Shiki

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2011, 07:02:25 PM »
Quote
see the FAQ on Monks with TWF
Where's it located?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a, ctrl+f two-weapon fighting and you should come across relevant texts.
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Echoes

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 07:14:01 PM »
Am I the only one that suspects there'd be a lot less confusion in mixed attack series and in feat functions if unarmed strike were its own category of attack type, instead of the weird fence-straddling it does between manufactured and natural weapon?

Well, it's only Monks who have the special "counts as both manufactured and natural" clause, and that's only for the purposes of spells or effects that enhance manufactured or natural weapons (letting them take INA, for example).

For everyone else, unarmed attacks are just a simple weapon. You can make off-hand attacks with them, even if your main-hand attacks are also unarmed strikes. Meanwhile, natural weapon users can gain iterative unarmed strikes (assuming they have IUS) while employing their natural weapons as secondary attacks. They can also do the TWF option, but the penalties are harsh without a whole pile of feats.
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weenog

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 07:19:19 PM »
Iterative attacks are a manufactured weapon thing, not a natural weapon thing.  Even for non-monks the attack form is on the line rather than on one or the other side of it.
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Re: Double hit
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011, 08:32:46 PM »
Iterative attacks are a manufactured weapon thing, not a natural weapon thing.  Even for non-monks the attack form is on the line rather than on one or the other side of it.

Huh? You can totally make iterative attacks with unarmed strikes. They aren't natural weapons - they're simple weapons.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2011, 09:49:54 PM »
The boards and their contents are being rearranged slightly.  The current Simple Question thread is now a sticky on the Min/Max It board.

Looking at Double Hit, it repeatedly makes reference to your offhand.  Natural weapons aren't offhand, the ones that aren't the primary weapon are secondary.  This feat seems to only want to work with two-weapon (or multiweapon) fighting.  You can make an offhand attack with an unarmed attack, so it should work with improved unarmed strike.
I'm thinking I have to agree with you but damn thats bad for the dudes with claws.
So....
shifters can't use double hit, with thier claws... miserable.
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weenog

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 05:37:01 AM »
Iterative attacks are a manufactured weapon thing, not a natural weapon thing.  Even for non-monks the attack form is on the line rather than on one or the other side of it.

Huh? You can totally make iterative attacks with unarmed strikes. They aren't natural weapons - they're simple weapons.

I think you've got "manufactured" and "martial" confused.  Plenty of weapons are both simple and manufactured.  Being a simple weapon is not necessarily different from being a manufactured weapon, plenty of weapons are both.  Being a natural weapon is different from being a manufactured weapon, only unarmed strikes combine abilities of both (whether or not you're a monk).  And yes, you can totally make iterative attacks with unarmed strikes.  That's one of the ways they act like a manufactured weapon.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:40:56 AM by weenog »
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Littha

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 11:53:59 AM »
The boards and their contents are being rearranged slightly.  The current Simple Question thread is now a sticky on the Min/Max It board.

Looking at Double Hit, it repeatedly makes reference to your offhand.  Natural weapons aren't offhand, the ones that aren't the primary weapon are secondary.  This feat seems to only want to work with two-weapon (or multiweapon) fighting.  You can make an offhand attack with an unarmed attack, so it should work with improved unarmed strike.
I'm thinking I have to agree with you but damn thats bad for the dudes with claws.
So....
shifters can't use double hit, with thier claws... miserable.

you do however get to use all your natural attacks with a full attack regardless of BAB. If you had a weapon that didn't occupy a hand a level 20 shifter with full BAB would do Weapon/Weapon/Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Claw on a full attack (penalties will be rather large on the claws though). Not sure if shifters can use a toothpick weapon but if they could they could pull off Weapon/Claw/Claw at level 1. Which is nice but again its a -4 penalty on the claw attacks i think...

Echoes

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Re: Double hit
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 02:56:27 AM »
The boards and their contents are being rearranged slightly.  The current Simple Question thread is now a sticky on the Min/Max It board.

Looking at Double Hit, it repeatedly makes reference to your offhand.  Natural weapons aren't offhand, the ones that aren't the primary weapon are secondary.  This feat seems to only want to work with two-weapon (or multiweapon) fighting.  You can make an offhand attack with an unarmed attack, so it should work with improved unarmed strike.
I'm thinking I have to agree with you but damn thats bad for the dudes with claws.
So....
shifters can't use double hit, with thier claws... miserable.

you do however get to use all your natural attacks with a full attack regardless of BAB. If you had a weapon that didn't occupy a hand a level 20 shifter with full BAB would do Weapon/Weapon/Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Claw on a full attack (penalties will be rather large on the claws though). Not sure if shifters can use a toothpick weapon but if they could they could pull off Weapon/Claw/Claw at level 1. Which is nice but again its a -4 penalty on the claw attacks i think...

Secondary natural attacks are at -5, or -2 with Multiattack. Improved Multiattack eliminates the penalty altogether.
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Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]