Author Topic: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?  (Read 6890 times)

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Waazraath

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witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« on: August 18, 2011, 08:30:44 PM »
Checking out the witch slayer from Tome of Magic, I sighed, again, reading the sad smite spirit sharer ability, which gives the ability to smite once per witch slayer level a binder or possessed creature... until I read the 'adaption' section, that allows the substitution of smite spirit sharer with smite evil. That would mean that a class with only 5 levels would give 5 smites extra, much better then a other classes advancing smite. A paladin 5 / witch slayer 5 / fist of raziel 10 would end up with 13 smites... limited as smiting is, using this prestige class should make it a lot more powerful.

Ithamar

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 09:04:50 PM »
If you want great smiting ability, check out Ordained Champion from Comp. Champ.  It has just about the best smiting ability available.
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Waazraath

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 09:07:03 PM »
Doesn't it use a turn attempts for every smite?

CantripN

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 09:09:17 PM »
Doesn't it use a turn attempts for every smite?

You mean that class feature you can get well over a dozen of, a day, with barely any resources?

Get Awesome Smite (CC) for synergy.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:14:31 PM by CantripN »
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Gnomeo

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 09:15:08 PM »
A Binder using the Andras vestige can smite once every 5 rounds all day long.  It works on any Good or Evil creature.
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CantripN

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 09:16:27 PM »
A Binder using the Andras vestige can smite once every 5 rounds all day long.  It works on any Good or Evil creature.

Which works with Awesome Smite, too, regardless of whether your Smite actually does anything.
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X-Codes

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 09:46:43 PM »
There's also Gray Guard, which I rather prefer to Fist of Raziel.  Changes Paladin smites to affect anything, Good, Evil, and otherwise.  Paladin 5/Witch Slayer 5/Gray Guard 10 would be a good Paladin build.  Of course, if you have an EBL worth anything, then Andras is the way to go.

Maat_Mons

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 09:51:25 PM »
Reading this thread makes me ponder making a smite-focused character in E6.  Awesome smite requires base attack bonus +6, so to get it in E6 you'd need to enter ordained champion with paladin.  You could spend the extra feats on extra turning, until you can basically smite on every attack.  Sound any good? 

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 09:55:26 PM »
Reading this thread makes me ponder making a smite-focused character in E6.  Awesome smite requires base attack bonus +6, so to get it in E6 you'd need to enter ordained champion with paladin.  You could spend the extra feats on extra turning, until you can basically smite on every attack.  Sound any good? 
That smite eats your swift actions, so it's kinda 'meh.'  I guess that since you're a Paladin/Ordained Champ you could do without them...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 10:09:56 PM »
There's also Gray Guard, which I rather prefer to Fist of Raziel.  Changes Paladin smites to affect anything, Good, Evil, and otherwise.  Paladin 5/Witch Slayer 5/Gray Guard 10 would be a good Paladin build.  Of course, if you have an EBL worth anything, then Andras is the way to go.
Binder/Paladin/Grey Guard?
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The Thing in the Night

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 01:53:51 AM »
Add in Killoren from RotW...it has its own smite 1/hour with damage keying off of Hit Dice. Just in case.

Midnight_v

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 02:22:46 AM »
Add in Killoren from RotW...it has its own smite 1/hour with damage keying off of Hit Dice. Just in case.
Interesting thats pretty cool too.

Quote
if you have an EBL worth anything, then Andras is the way to go.
Ebl?

A kiloreen Binder/Paladin/Grey guard, W/awesome smite and well power attack.

How would this actually play? Smite,Smite,Smite... SMITE!
... bitches.  

Edit: Effective binder level. Gotcha.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 02:38:05 AM by Midnight_v »
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Ivory Knight

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 06:04:01 AM »
The basically unlimited Smite granted by Andras also can be used out of combat:
Get a Shield of Mercy(MiC) -> use 1 Smite to heal by touch, wait half a minute, repeat until party is fully healed

A Killoren might also get a lot out of this cheap Item, combine with Ring of Sustenance(or some other cheap way to get by with less sleep) and change your hourly smite into healing.

Waazraath

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 07:35:25 AM »
Doesn't it use a turn attempts for every smite?

You mean that class feature you can get well over a dozen of, a day, with barely any resources?

Get Awesome Smite (CC) for synergy.

But both clerics and paladins can use 'em better then for smites, imho... cleric has DMM, paladin gains a lot from divine and devotion feats. And it cost a swift action as well, so, dunno, never been too impressed with the Ordained Champion related to smiting.

Binder with Andras is nice, but 1) donno if it stacks with other smite evil classes (since the ability isn't 'smite evil' but 'smite good or evil'), second, it's based on binder level (ebl = effective binder level), so a level 5 binder / 5 paladin has smites that do only 5 extra damage, instead of 10.... paladin 5 / witch slayer 5 / grey guard seems more sensible then binder, using binder I'd go binder all the way.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 11:23:34 AM »
I haven't seen what Awesome Smite does, but every way I looked at optimizing this, I was always disappointed with the results.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Waazraath

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 11:47:38 AM »
I haven't seen what Awesome Smite does, but every way I looked at optimizing this, I was always disappointed with the results.

Well, it's what you compare it too, I guess... it'll never be game breaking, but should be optimizalble up to a degree that it's decent compared with what other melee classes have to offer. I planned on adding some pally builds to the build compendium soon anyway, I'll try to include this as well.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 11:51:58 AM »
I haven't seen what Awesome Smite does, but every way I looked at optimizing this, I was always disappointed with the results.

Well, it's what you compare it too, I guess... it'll never be game breaking, but should be optimizalble up to a degree that it's decent compared with what other melee classes have to offer. I planned on adding some pally builds to the build compendium soon anyway, I'll try to include this as well.
It's just that it is limited either on uses per day, or once every 5 rnds (binder-based), or I guess by Turn Undead. So any way you look at it, you're not getting that many uses out of this, and it's only really for single-attacks, not full round attacks. I guess the best way to optimize it would be for a mounted charger, with all the multipliers thrown in, since this also gets multiplied. So a leap attacking shock trooper on the back of a horse, or something.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Waazraath

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 12:47:07 PM »
I haven't seen what Awesome Smite does, but every way I looked at optimizing this, I was always disappointed with the results.

Well, it's what you compare it too, I guess... it'll never be game breaking, but should be optimizalble up to a degree that it's decent compared with what other melee classes have to offer. I planned on adding some pally builds to the build compendium soon anyway, I'll try to include this as well.
It's just that it is limited either on uses per day, or once every 5 rnds (binder-based), or I guess by Turn Undead. So any way you look at it, you're not getting that many uses out of this, and it's only really for single-attacks, not full round attacks. I guess the best way to optimize it would be for a mounted charger, with all the multipliers thrown in, since this also gets multiplied. So a leap attacking shock trooper on the back of a horse, or something.

Well, the limited uses/day is a big problem for these builds, that's why I started this post in the first place: 5 attempts with 5 levels isn't too bad, it's actually much better then most other classes, even those specialized in smiting like Fist of Raziel. I've never seen wich slayer used in this way, and think it will be a decent upgrade for smiting builds.

The multiplying of smite damage is indeed the way to go as far as I'm concerned. Normally for paladins, I avoid shock trooper: too many feats, and they have acces to the spells find the gap and wraithstrike, which means they can attack with touch attacks and full power attacks anyway, without the AC loss. But witch slayer doesn't advance spellcasting, so it might be a way to go.

SorO_Lost

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2011, 04:47:24 AM »
Normally for paladins, I avoid shock trooper: too many feats, and they have acces to the spells find the gap and wraithstrike, which means they can attack with touch attacks and full power attacks anyway, without the AC loss.
:twitch

K, you complain 3 feats for the de facto minimum for uber charging is far too much then to support this you claim trading away Turning for  a 3/day hit boost is superior? I'm just going to assume you're new here and avoid the patronizing tone and insults.

Buy a Large Claws of the Leopard (CAd, 38k), as a One Handed Weapon you can use it Two Handed at the expense of a -2 attack penalty.
PA for 20, and charge. Your 4th attack has a -35 penalty to hit from BAB, for a 50% chance to hit that average Touch AC of 10 or so you need a +35 bonus. The Trooper on the other hand still has a +3 bonus (bab-large) vs the highest AC rating of CR 20s (35) he only needs a +22 bonus for the same 50% chance. It means the Trooper deals more damage, either though hitting more often or PAing for significantly higher values. Mindful, this doesn't mandate trading Turning away for Mystic Fire Knight and it doesn't consume your already limited spell slots each and every time you charge. And if you meant Waithstrike via UMDing Wands, hey guess what so can the Trooper only he gets a near auto hit out of the deal. As for AC, it was worthless by level 5 or so and should have been replaced with Miss Chances long before we got to a level 20 example.
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Waazraath

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Re: witch slayer (ToM): ultimate smite evil enhancer?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2011, 09:23:49 AM »
Normally for paladins, I avoid shock trooper: too many feats, and they have acces to the spells find the gap and wraithstrike, which means they can attack with touch attacks and full power attacks anyway, without the AC loss.
:twitch

K, you complain 3 feats for the de facto minimum for uber charging is far too much then to support this you claim trading away Turning for  a 3/day hit boost is superior? I'm just going to assume you're new here and avoid the patronizing tone and insults.

Buy a Large Claws of the Leopard (CAd, 38k), as a One Handed Weapon you can use it Two Handed at the expense of a -2 attack penalty.
PA for 20, and charge. Your 4th attack has a -35 penalty to hit from BAB, for a 50% chance to hit that average Touch AC of 10 or so you need a +35 bonus. The Trooper on the other hand still has a +3 bonus (bab-large) vs the highest AC rating of CR 20s (35) he only needs a +22 bonus for the same 50% chance. It means the Trooper deals more damage, either though hitting more often or PAing for significantly higher values. Mindful, this doesn't mandate trading Turning away for Mystic Fire Knight and it doesn't consume your already limited spell slots each and every time you charge. And if you meant Waithstrike via UMDing Wands, hey guess what so can the Trooper only he gets a near auto hit out of the deal. As for AC, it was worthless by level 5 or so and should have been replaced with Miss Chances long before we got to a level 20 example.

 :twitch :twitch :twitch

Ok.... eh, please, do make some insults on a patronizing tone to me  :D I never experienced it, and I think it could be interesting. On the internet even! And no, I never posted here before.

To get back to the discussion: we're talking about smiting characters, paladins in this case. Let's see:
- shock trooper (heedless charge) allows powerattack for full, costs 3 feats, at the cost of AC
- the feat 'sword of the arcane order' (HoV) allows a paladin to use wizard spells; with that, you can use wraithstrike, make attacks as touch attacks, and power attack for full; at the cost of 1 feat and a spell/use
- the spell 'find the gap' (SpC) allows making one touch attack/round for 1 round/level. 1 touch attack, well... that's enough for charging, smiting paladin, since with full power attack and enough multipliers (easily x5), you're one shotting anyway; available at level 11, by that time most paladins will have battle blessing, and use find the gap as a swift action.

So at the most, the shock trooper route, for a charging smiting paladin, only has some advantages at level 6-10; during those levels, without shock trooper a paladin can only power attack for full a limited times/day. With the 3 feats paid for shock trooper though, a charging paladin could otherwise tripled its damage on every attack with the mounted combat feats. So, yes, really, I do complain about those 3 feats spent and don't think 'em worth it, especially for the feat starved paladin that has much better feats to choose from.

The example you give seems to assume pounce. Fine, if you're optimizing ubercharging, but this thread is about optimizing smiting. If you want to ubercharge with pounce, why smite in the first place, since that only works on one attack? A decently optimized smiting charge can one-shot almost every appropriate CR anyway, so as far as I'm concerned it's a decent alternative to pouncing, with the added advantage that after you're attack, even if it failed, you're nowhere near your enemy. Contrary to the pouncing shock trooper, who is standing with his pants down next to his enemy/enemies, grabbing his ankles and waiting for things to come.

Btw, AC being useless from 5th level onward is highly exagerated imho. Your comment on "'trading away turning for a 3/day hit boost is superior" I can't place, since I didn't mention anything like it.

If somehow I failed to make myself clear, look here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057.0 in the first post for some extensive examples of what I'm talking about.