Author Topic: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?  (Read 7887 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 12:40:37 AM »
Oh. Guess I should explain the Detect Magic trick huh. Even Lycan skipped explaining it.

Snowcast + Flash Frost + Detect Magic = Laser vision.
Flash Frost makes the spell deal 2 points of Cold damage per spell level to everything targeted by the spell. Detect Magic notably does not have a Target: Self entry, and it's Area is a 60ft cone projected from your eyes thus Flash Frost's damage hits everyone walking into said cone of effect.

The usage of a poorly written Divination and flavoristic concept of Fell Drain is in my signature and my titled below my avatar and Ly's version has it running around with a super bullrush of doom. Adding Born of Three Thunders & Thunderbolt is a great way to gain Free Action multiple save vs suck crowd control.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 12:56:27 AM »
Couldn't you use both Fell Drain AND Explosive Spell? That'd hurt like the dickens.
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StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 01:10:10 AM »
They're weapon-like spells.  Cleric + Rogue + Cleric/Rogue prestige class = profit?

SorO_Lost

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 02:24:39 AM »
Couldn't you use both Fell Drain AND Explosive Spell? That'd hurt like the dickens.
The sky is the limit.
... Well, spell sot and feat limitations are the real limit. But you get what I mean.

However there is two things to note.
First, Fell Drain and effects like it (like flash frost) only works once per subject. Derived from FAQ notations that Magic Missile cannot apply more than one negative level per subject regardless of how many missiles hit them. Since Explosive Spell is tied to Flash Frost's damage - that is Explosive Spell requires Born of Three Thunder's to add a Reflex save and both require Flash Frost to deal damage - you could only use their effects once per casting, so permanency is less useful than recasting it daily if you are capable of doing so.

Secondly, Ocular Spell override's the normal Target & Effect to the guy you hit with the ray, since they become the target Flash Frost / Fell Drain would take affect on them and not give laser vision. One of the Dispels steals spell effects, the FAQ I'm pretty sure contains an example of a metamagic'ed out spell on a scroll so you could simply scribe it, and of course an Incantatrix can augment the metamagic's after Detect Magic has been cast from a hired spellcaster. So you can still transfer things just fine you just have to do it a bit differently.

They're weapon-like spells.  Cleric + Rogue + Cleric/Rogue prestige class = profit?
Which is were things can get silly. Technically speaking those damage effects I've been using are per die of damage dealt by the spell. It's damage is only applied to the first shot of multi-attack spells, and since SA can't be multiplied I don't think Energy Admixture would double it so it won't become a jaw dropper. But a Wand of CL 18 Hunter's Eye for +6d6 Sneak Attack which is +63 damage on average and really cheap to use.

Vampiric Touch is one of those spells I just love to use with a JPM, I'm quite sure a damage happy nuke bomber would find it useful too.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Tr011

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 02:51:10 AM »
They're weapon-like spells.  Cleric + Rogue + Cleric/Rogue prestige class = profit?
You don't need any PC. Just one level of Rogue and the rest has to be cleric (no PC to advance will work). Then you can get full SA like a single-class rogue would get via the Dragon Magazine Feat that adds Cleric and Rogue levels for SA and Turning. So level 20 (rogue 1/cleric 19) would have 10d6 sneak attack and a CL of 19 (full caster level if you add practised caster). With Repeating, automatically maximizing and Twinning this can get interesting since multiple casts resolve in multiple SAs.

sir_argenon

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 11:16:16 PM »
They're weapon-like spells.  Cleric + Rogue + Cleric/Rogue prestige class = profit?

what good rogue/cleric prc's are there? i dont know of any off hand that advances SA besides black flame zealot, and that is a 5/10 cl class... :puke:

Hitoshura

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 11:44:08 PM »
There is a relic, Bloodguantlets or something, that free auto-empowers your inflict...  Nevermind, I'll look it up and give you the actual info.

OK, Complete Divine, pg. 97 - Gauntlets of the Blood Lord.  If you worship Hextor, they grant a +4 luck bonus on all melee touch attacks, and all melee touch spells are free maximized (not empowered).  They cost 33,600 + True Believer feat or a 6th level spell slot to use.

Those could be particularly nasty on a Dread necromancer using stacking touch attacks.

A Duskblade would love this more, all Channeled spells maximized? It's Certainly worth a feat. Also, a Bloodstorm Blade with Thunderous Throw could get many cheeses out of this.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 11:45:55 PM »
They're weapon-like spells.  Cleric + Rogue + Cleric/Rogue prestige class = profit?

what good rogue/cleric prc's are there? i dont know of any off hand that advances SA besides black flame zealot, and that is a 5/10 cl class... :puke:
Shadowbane Inquisitor/Stalker? If you can use 3rd party by D&D game designers, there is also the Divine Trickster.
[spoiler]
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...thanks
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jeffrie

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 12:35:21 AM »
Again while i was typing there were replies, so if this seems out of context i apologize.

I seriously appreciate the brainstorming, and advise towards other paths, but remember the thread about optimizing inflict/harm? (lol) no really (heh)

I don't understand a lot of what was read (and am dazed by your fluency), but the OP implies Cleric, and Orbx is an arcane spell. Now i mentioned Custom Domain but i only know so many other ways to get arcane spells and i am tempted to pick improved invisibility as the 4th slot.

Also, iirc, the scorching ray example targets 4 for 88 each
Also, it is true Scorching Ray will require four touch attacks. Call it a downside if you want, but remember the spell delivers a Stun effect. So on the up side you can hit four separate targets not only dealing 88 each, but you can potential Stunning all four of them rather than just one guy.
So where that may be a good 2nd spell slot, it's not hitting one target for 400+ several times a day.

Just one level of Rogue and the rest has to be cleric (no PC to advance will work). Then you can get full SA like a single-class rogue would get via the Dragon Magazine Feat that adds Cleric and Rogue levels for SA and Turning. So level 20 (rogue 1/cleric 19) would have 10d6 sneak attack and a CL of 19 (full caster level if you add practiced caster). With Repeating, automatically maximizing and Twinning this can get interesting since multiple casts resolve in multiple SAs.
Do you know the name of that feat? Can you then explain how the Repeating, Twinning gets multiple Sneak Attacks?

This sounds like where i was going. I always love a chance to go Rogue1, anyway.

Lawful Neutral Human
CC2/ Rogue1/ CC1(3)/ Ordained Champ1/ Church Inq1/ CC2(5)/ Justiciar of Taiia1/ CC11(16)
Domain choices??? Knowledge, Destruction, Magic,**(customize domain to include True Strike and Greater Invis)

Fault Feat: Spell Focus (necro) IS THERE A WAY to make this happen without this fault?

1 Empower Spell
1 Maximize Spell
3 Sacred Outlaw Dragon #357 Prerequisite: SA +2d6, turn undead.
5 Domain Spontaneity (Destruction) Prerequisite: Ability to turn or rebuke undead.
6 Smiting Spell Prerequisite: Bab +1, caster level 1.
6 (OCh) Power Attack Prerequisite: Str 13.
   Benefit: Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.
6 (OCh) Leap Attack Prerequisites: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.
If you use a two-handed weapon, triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
9 Customize Domain Dragon #325 Prerequisite: Domain, cast 3rd-level divine spells.
   Magic: Any kind of spell, but you must select a spell one level lower than normal.
12 Black Lore of Moil Prerequisites: Spell Focus (necro), caster level 7.
15 Mastery of Day and Night Prereq: Knowledge (planes) 2, Spellcraft 6, Maximize Spell.
18 Domain Spontaneity (magic)

Looks to me like:
Spontaneous Spells to Destruction Domain
Spontaneous Spells to (custom) Magic Domain
Spontaneous Spells to War Domain
9d6 Sneak Attack

Improved Invis, Bulls Strength, Divine Power, True Strike. Leap, Power Attack, Sneak Attack

Battle axe +5, Str +10, True Strike +20 Moral +5 Flank +2 = +42

Battle axe +5, Str +10, (PA*2 +40, Leap*3) +120, (Harm +150, BLoM +2d6, Empower*1.5) +230, +9d6  === 385/500 points of damage without going nova, and able to do so half a dozen times a day. And kick ass with the feats even without Harm or Empower if needed.

Now i suppose y'all are going to rip this to shreds, but how about a pat on the back and some constructive criticism?

Thanks  :)
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 02:53:25 AM »
So where that may be a good 2nd spell slot, it's not hitting one target for 400+ several times a day.
At +7 damage per die it's bonus damage is dealing more than Maximize AND the spell does. It's 8d6+56 per ray, four rays per shot, plus another 4 for overkill, and w/e from Sneak Attack say it's Hunter's Eye for +6d6. It's 414 to a single target. So it is :p

Do you know the name of that feat? Can you then explain how the Repeating, Twinning gets multiple Sneak Attacks?
Twin Spell & Repeat Spell are metamagic feats printed somewhere (complete arcane?).
Twin is +4 and you basically double cast. IE Twinned Fireball shoots two fireballs, probably each one dealing 10d6 since your CL should be at cap by that point. Repeated is a bit like Twin, but the spell copy goes off next round aimed at the same target/area and it's only +3 to the cost. My previous line of Scorching Ray optimization it's running at -3 to costs per Metamagic allowing you to Twin Repeat Admixture Scorching Ray off a 7th level slot shooting eight 8d6+56 rays the first round and a second set of eight rays on the next - or around 1,600 damage with two saves vs Stun per round and you can still go for +50% or +8,000 more using Empower. It's been a fun thought exercise for me even if you won't use it.

***

As for your build. You wanted to know how to Maximize Harm just to increase your charge damage?!

O.
M.
G.

I hope not.
[spoiler]Cleric 19 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Feats: Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Battle Jump, plus any 2, plus 2 more with flaws, even a 5th if Human.
Ability: Str 26 (16+4inherent+6enhance), Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8. Point Buy 26.
Spells: Divine Power (BAB = 20, +6 enhance to Str), uses Waithful Strike prior to charging (swift action).
Damage: +282 = 5 (enhancement) + 9 (str+thf) + 80 (pa+thf+leap) * 3 (battle+valor)
Attack: +5 Valorous Greatsword +33/+28/+23/+18 melee touch (6d6+282)
Total: 1,212 damage per round.

Sure adding another 150ish damage would be ok, but meh. Even a Monk Dip would be better since it can give Power Attack,  let you deal x4 damage rather than x3 and pave way for Snap Kick for five attacks per round rather than four.[/spoiler]

If you really want an Uber Charger with 9th level Divine Spells, even have us work in Ordained Champion, just ask for that. Buried somewhere we've got one heck of a Lich King build that does all that with near invincibility and a private army of intelligent undead.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 10:13:01 AM »
I feel as if telling the OP that his idea is stupid and he should play something else is probably less wise than helping him get his idea to work as well as it possibly can, especially since his idea involves doing passable damage. If you're doing a couple hundred damage on a hit, you're doing fine, even though you could theoretically double that via scorching ray or standard ubercharging.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

stranglebat

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 10:49:14 AM »
Eldritch Disciples ability to add Warlock essences to spells could make for some good Inflict/Harm spell combo's
Add Eldritch Chain to Mass Inflict X and I wonder what happens

CantripN

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 11:00:55 AM »
Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked) + Warlock comes to mind, too. Infinite Inflict spells!
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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 02:29:37 PM »
Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked) + Warlock comes to mind, too. Infinite Inflict spells!

+Mastery of Day and Night. Free Maximized Inflicts, all day.

jeffrie

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 04:47:32 PM »
@SorO_Lost , Actually, i don't know enough about 3.5 to have a goal. I'm just getting outside of core this very summer. I'll have to read your last post several times while looking up the info you mentioned just to be able to understand it. But thanks, it will be a fun mental exercise.
PS: love your sig.

Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked) + Warlock comes to mind, too. Infinite Inflict spells!

+Mastery of Day and Night. Free Maximized Inflicts, all day.
This sounds pretty cool. Can this be done with a Lawful Neutral Character? Max Spontaneous heal also = all day play and less cost for me?
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Littha

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 08:17:55 PM »
How we got past all the frostburn feats without a mention of winterhaunt of iborighu and its +2d6/3d6 damage and constant piercing cold I will never know.

CantripN

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 08:20:14 PM »
Because it's Evil? Or at least, mostly Evil?
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Littha

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 08:26:20 PM »
for inflict optimisation?

SorO_Lost

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2011, 01:19:34 AM »
@SorO_Lost , Actually, i don't know enough about 3.5 to have a goal.
The goal starts with the design of the character not help some specific attribute that looks great.

Basically things went as far as they could go with the Black Lore & Empower as far as Harm could go, sure SA and +X per die could really top things off but that is fundamentally it. When you revealed the reasons those that area of optimization you showed a fairly weak build, which of course an over the top guy like me could give the wrong impression but, the fact you researched my example means you were not deterred and now know enough about Charging to proficiently optimize that area you self. But you still don't know where you're going.

It looks like you want a Cleric with bit more melee over back row spellcasting. So...
Is there any over all concept you would like? Like maybe you think a Paladin would be cool but refuse to touch the base class because it sucks, or WoW's Lich King on crack sounds great, how about a dwarf in platemail that treats evil like a disease?
What kind of casting role are you really looking at? Burning spell slots to augment melee damage directly can be useful, burning spell slots layering enough enhancements your DM wonders if people using Detect Magic should save vs Blindness is another option.
Do you really want to focus on Charging as your aspect of melee? A good second option would be Maneuvers from Tome of Battle which are pretty cool. They will deal less damage than over kill charging but you can actually pick up both of those roles really, it just depends on if you want to learn the Maneuver system.

for inflict optimisation?
Sure, if by Inflict you mean the line of spells with the word Inflict in them and not screw the name I want high Negative Energy damage.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Can Inflict serious wounds/Harm be optimized?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2011, 04:01:58 AM »
+1 Sor_O

I do a lot of the optimization in my gaming group.  And, I don't mind doing it, but what is essential is that the person have a pretty well-defined character concept in mind.  Then, the optimization can begin as we pour through books to try and find interesting combos that sell that concept. 

"Cleric" is not a useful concept, even "melee cleric" is still pretty vague.