Exploring PAO for a sec

[Solo]

Alright, so let's say I'm a levle 20 spellcaster and I summon a monster using Summon Monster 7. Let's say I know PAO and decide I want to turn my summon into something fearsome. Can someone help me come up with monsters to summon and things to turn them into?

Let's start with core and work outwards.

[Caelic]

Why summon monster 7?  Seems like summon monster 1 would work just as well.

[Shiki]

Monsters types available? SMI only gets Magical Beasts, SMVII also gets Outsiders and Elementals. I'm just guessing here.

[Solo]

Also, HP and BAB.

[Shiki]

SMIX then?

edit: Gate, Implore, Summon Elemental Monolith... hmm.

[b100d_arrowz]

Summon a Roc and turn it into Magma

[Mixster]

Summon an Avoral and double PAO him into a Solar?

But you can do that with a pinch of salt as well.

Probably why PaO is one of the most overpowered spell out there.

[Aliek]

The HD limit on PaO is 15, IIRC, so no solars for you.

You could, at least in theory, use reserves of strength, but I'm pretty sure that, if one doesn't interpret it that way, most DMs will, which is that only the bonus caster levels gained by using it can exceed the cap. Still, that leaves us with a cap of 18.

After all that, I'd say a black ethergaunt with his 16 HD is worth considering, especially as his intelligence is awesomely high, which PAO also affects.

[awaken DM golem]

The PAO is basically a Spellcasting Service, ala the PHB, to the Summoned Monster.
And you wanna do it for free.
I doubt the Monster would mind too much, if there's something in it for him (it/her/whatever).

Summon + PAO = 2 rounds
v. Planar Bind/Ally = 10 minutes plus extra protection
So it could be worth it, certainly in a pinch.
Minor cost / benefit calculations are possible.

High Wis + Cha is retained. Int is the thing regular Poly doesn't have.
Anything else buried within the spell desciption ... like:
Did Carnivore include PAO on his super Polymorph comparo charts?


Wouldn't get any (su) from the new form, without MT or AS feats.
Mix in a PsyRef to get it and that's about 2 more rounds.
We're getting to out-of-combat use only.
I'd rather just Metamorph + MT feat on a Psion at this point.
 

[PhaedrusXY]

The HD limit on PaO is 15, IIRC, so no solars for you.

It's somewhat unclear, since you can turn something into an object (no hit dice, as in - or NULL) or turn an object into a creature.

[Shiki]

The HD limit on PaO is 15, IIRC, so no solars for you.

It's somewhat unclear, since you can turn something into an object (no hit dice, as in - or NULL) or turn an object into a creature.

PAO says it works as Polymorph as far as some limitations goes.

[Aliek]

As most of the games I play, PAO is banned, I'm not too versed in its strengths. Is it same to assume you don't get spellcasting from the polymorphed form? If you don't, is there any way to acquire it?

Now, an archivist turned permanently into a black ethergaunt would be quite awesome.

[Mixster]

The HD limit on PaO is 15, IIRC, so no solars for you.

It's somewhat unclear, since you can turn something into an object (no hit dice, as in - or NULL) or turn an object into a creature.

PAO says it works as Polymorph as far as some limitations goes.

But never specifies what those are, if this was actually true, the example of turning a manticore into a shrew would be impossible, because shrew has - HD.

PS. Spellcasting is Ex, so technically you could get it.

Also, turning yourself into a Chronotyryn is also a decent idea.

[Shiki]

The HD limit on PaO is 15, IIRC, so no solars for you.

It's somewhat unclear, since you can turn something into an object (no hit dice, as in - or NULL) or turn an object into a creature.

PAO says it works as Polymorph as far as some limitations goes.

But never specifies what those are, if this was actually true, the example of turning a manticore into a shrew would be impossible, because shrew has - HD.

No. Read again. It says "to a maximum of 15 HD," and make no mention of a minimum HD.

[PhaedrusXY]

PaO doesn't mention hit dice at all. It does say it works like polymorph except as noted (or however it is worded), but then goes on to say that you can turn an object into a creature and vice versa. Also, one of the examples is of turning a shrew into a manticore. I don't know if a shrew is statted out somewhere, but I'm sure it doesn't have more than one hit die, while a manticore certainly does. This would be against the rules of Polymorph, as not only is it capped at 15 HD, but it also can't turn the subject into something that has more hit dice than its original form.

The your caster level (or , whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

So it is violating the hit dice caps of Polymorph explicitly in the wording (an object has a non-value for hit dice, not 0), and also in the examples. So that's why I say it is up in the air whether the 15 HD maximum (and any of the other restrictions on hit dice) applies or not.

[Shiki]

Maybe I'm bad @English or whatnot, but I don't see anything about minimum HD in both of these spells.

[PhaedrusXY]

Maybe I'm bad @English or whatnot, but I don't see anything about minimum HD in both of these spells.

Who is talking about minimum hit dice? Anywhere?

Polymorph says the target can't turn into an assumed form with more hit dice than its original form. PaO gives an example of turning a shrew into a manticore, which should be illegal according to that.

It also explicitly (in the text of the spell) says you can turn an object (let's say a rock) into a creature (let's say a dragon). Rocks don't have hit dice at all. So how do you figure out if the dragon you're turning it into has more hit dice than the rock started with?

So obviously at least some of the rules on hit dice limits from Polymorph do not apply to PaO. Does that mean that the rest apply? Don't? Or what?

[Lycanthromancer]

Maybe I'm bad @English or whatnot, but I don't see anything about minimum HD in both of these spells.

That's because everyone is talking about maximum HD.

As in, according to Polymorph, the maximum number of HD of creature you could Polymorph into is your CL or your target's HD, whichever is lower.

You cannot turn a hat (HD --) into a thri-kreen (HD 2) because hats don't have HD (since -- here is effectively 0).

[Shiki]

Who cares about maximum here? You obviously do not want to reach that cap if you ever wanted to be 'morphed into a stone. The spells do not state you can't 'morph into things w/ less than 1 HD. I'm talking about a creature getting PAO'd here.

As far as PAO'ing objects goes, it is obvious that you can 'morph 'em into a creature as the spell suggest, so obviously it should work regardless of what Polymorph says on this matter since Polymorph covers wtf is going on w/ creatures, not objects.

I don't really see a problem here.

[Lycanthromancer]

Who cares about maximum here? You obviously do not want to reach that cap if you ever wanted to be 'morphed into a stone. The spells do not state you can't 'morph into things w/ less than 1 HD. I'm talking about a creature getting PAO'd here.

As far as PAO'ing objects goes, it is obvious that you can 'morph 'em into a creature as the spell suggest, so obviously it should work regardless of what Polymorph says on this matter since Polymorph covers wtf is going on w/ creatures, not objects.

I don't really see a problem here.

So...you have no clue what the difference is between maximum and minimum?