Dynamic Initiative & TP (ATB Gauge)

[bkdubs123]

The thought just occurred to me as to how one might go about creating a "dynamic initiative" system without needing to roll tons of dice over and over again. The concept revolves around Turn Points, or TP, which actions would consume. A swift/immediate action is worth 2 TP, a move action is worth 2 TP, and a standard action is worth 4 TP. This would mean that a full turn is worth 8 TP.

So, at the start of battle, characters roll initiative normally. But then, on their turns, if they spend too many TP on their actions they take a penalty to their rolled initiative possibly impacting the turn order, or if they are more frugal with their TP they might actually get an initiative "refund," possibly causing them to act earlier in the next round.

Now, the tricky parts lie in just how many TP do players have available, and just where the fulcrum of this bonus/penalty to initiative lies. Different classes could have different TP accumulation rates and/or different TP boundaries. Characters could gain bonus TP and/or temporary TP.

For some examples, let's assume that the baseline tipping point for all characters is 6 TP, so that for every unspent point below 6 a character gets a refund to their initiative and for every point spent over 6 they take a penalty to initiative (to a normal maximum of 8 TP spendable per turn). Okay, and let's say that Fighter McStabs rolls a 14 initiative, Wizard Gandalfbeard rolls a 20 initiative, and the Bulette rolls a 17. Wizard goes first and he casts a summon spell costing him all 8 of his TP. This gives him a -2 penalty to initiative bringing that down to 18. Then the Bulette goes and it charges the Fighter costing 8 TP, also taking a -2 penalty to initiative going to 15. Okay, now the Fighter just stands and swings as a standard action spending only 4 TP and grabbing a net +2 bonus to his initiative for the round, moving to 16. At the top of the order, it's still the Wizard who finishes his summon spell and does something else, but now after the Wizard, the Fighter gets to go again, before the Bulette.

[Prime32]

So basically, delayed actions and a new swift/move action which increases your init by +2?

The most interesting effect of an ATB gauge, not present here, is that some characters get to take their turn more often than others. It could be simulated by something like...

Add your BAB to initiative checks (monk levels have +3/2 BAB for this purpose). After taking your turn, you may act again in the same round at an initiative -20 lower, as long as this is not lower than 0. Sufficiently high rolls may allow you to do this multiple times per round (eg. a roll of 45 would let you act at positions 45, 25 and 5).

(with TP added in somehow)

Maybe add in some carrier effects which modify initiative (e.g. it drops when you are struck by a sneak attack, and increases when you defeat an enemy).

[bkdubs123]

Yeah, the beauty of it is, for the price of a thin added layer of complexity, massive swaths of design space can be added to the game, potentially mundane boosting design space (because it just makes fluff sense for spells to consume more TP, right? Right?). Under the "default values" a warrior could full-attack and move for 8 TP, sure it'd set him back -2 to his initiative, but still, it's something he could never do before. Pretty cool... As long as rules were in place to prevent spellcasters from going standard action + standard action again! Because for that much spellslinging, a -2 initiative docking isn't a big enough deal.

Like Quick Hit, (Tidus FFX), which I could never figure out how to properly implement before, could be as simple as, "As a standard action, make a melee attack. If the attack hits, gain 2 TP."

There could also be rules for what happens when you take initiative penalties when you're already the last to act in the round (perhaps you start burning your next turn's TP, perhaps even beyond that you become Fatigued (holy crap actual stamina and physical exertion rules?! WTF?!?!11)).

[PhaedrusXY]

I remember seeing a discussion on a system very similar to this on the gaming den.

[bkdubs123]

I'd be curious as to what directions they went with it, and/or what their ultimate conclusions were about the potential merits and pitfalls of such a system. Any chance you've got a link?

[PhaedrusXY]

I'd be curious as to what directions they went with it, and/or what their ultimate conclusions were about the potential merits and pitfalls of such a system. Any chance you've got a link?

No, sorry. I didn't save a link. If I have time later, I'll look for it. Pretty busy ATM...

Edit: I don't think this is exactly the same thread, but it outlines a lot of initiative systems, some of which tie actions into initiative (which is basically what you're doing here): http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=164072

I'm sure you can find more threads on similar topics via google and/or their on-site search function.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=iso-8859-1&oe=iso-8859-1&q=initiative+system&btnG=Google+Search&domains=tgdmb.com&sitesearch=tgdmb.com

[Prime32]

Like Quick Hit, (Tidus FFX), which I could never figure out how to properly implement before, could be as simple as, "As a standard action, make a melee attack. If the attack hits, gain 2 TP."

These kinds of mechanics tend to lead to the "bag of rats" problem though. One way to solve it would be that "bonus" actions provoke AoOs from everyone but their source (in this case, the creature you struck with the attack), and/or other creatures get better defences against your attacks or are even immune to them (just forcing you to target one enemy doesn't work if you have area effects or Cleave).

[PhaedrusXY]

Like Quick Hit, (Tidus FFX), which I could never figure out how to properly implement before, could be as simple as, "As a standard action, make a melee attack. If the attack hits, gain 2 TP."

These kinds of mechanics tend to lead to the "bag of rats" problem though. One way to solve it would be that "bonus" actions provoke AoOs from everyone but their source (in this case, the creature you struck with the attack), and/or other creatures have a miss chance against their effects.

I do remember that one thing they suggested was making things that add points to your "action point pool" be very rare and/or non-existent. Otherwise, you'd wind up with 3.0 Haste redux.

[bkdubs123]

Like Quick Hit, (Tidus FFX), which I could never figure out how to properly implement before, could be as simple as, "As a standard action, make a melee attack. If the attack hits, gain 2 TP."

These kinds of mechanics tend to lead to the "bag of rats" problem though. One way to solve it would be that "bonus" actions provoke AoOs from everyone but their source (in this case, the creature you struck with the attack), and/or other creatures have a miss chance against their effects.

I do remember that one thing they suggested was making things that add points to your "action point pool" be very rare and/or non-existent. Otherwise, you'd wind up with 3.0 Haste redux.

Which is a consequence of attempting to balance everything up to Tier 1. The action economy becomes very, very strict. At the high Tier 4 low Tier 3 point of balance characters can play around with extra actions and dynamic initiative without turning anything into rocket tag.