[3.5]Problem Answered

[hollowzen]

So here is the current situation after the first session:

I set up a campaign starting at level 8 for 2 of my friends and 2 people they know.  Overall its pretty basic, nothing to extreme aside from a pantheon change, a few fixed regional themes, and a a modified taint rule.
I allowed a flaw and a trait, as well as an extra feat all together to allow for everyone to take a pure soul feat, or another. everyone took a pure soul feat.  (separated into 2 feats, Pure Mind for depravity and Pure Body for corruption to keep taint relevant).
So far its pretty well balanced in terms of the party with a few exceptions, or rather, certain issues i cant deal with without targeting that one person, or cant without making it obvious.

The party consist of all level 9's now: A Kobald rogue that can deal large amounts of sneak attack damage. A human dragonfire adept going for metabreath feats. A Star elf (or something from FR) cleric/radiant servant of pelor focusing on undead turning. And "another one of those elves" psion/warblade/ swordsage.  Those last 2 have weapons of legacy. The cleric is similar to the holy symbol in the book and isnt really that bad. The other is a adamentine sword that just does random stuff that together with his build turns into a difficult situation to deal with.  I can deal with the rogue easily enough, since he is not to much of a skill monkey and oozes just wreck him. The cleric I can usually sway his spells to large amount of restoration/ utility spells since 2 of the people HATE taint, add in turn resistance if need be,and just not include undead. Dragonfire adept is pretty alright since constant invisibility/flying cheese is pretty easy to mess around with and until the higher levels the breath is pretty straight forward. That and she is a nice player who likes flavor over optimization. The Psion/Initiator guy is the hard one to beat for the reason below.

Right now, the Psion/Initiator has an AC of 29.
 I managed to find where a lot of his AC is coming from, but until I look over his actually sheet I can only guess exactly how much.  He getting around 7 from Inertial armor, the bonus from swordsage, dex and a few magical item.     He has several feats and stances to grant him singular dodge bonuses, which I am going to see if he is including in that total.

I figure I can lower his Ac by telling him he never cast the armor or designated a target for his doge abilities, but that would generally last 1 round, and unlikely to happen again for the duration of the game. The problem here is that I cant legitimately hit him with anything at their CR baring specific creatures, spells, and situations (crit, prone, ect) or monsters who are to powerful. Due to his large amount of dipping he also has above average saves, especially to sort of mind affecting magic.  While I could DM cheat, he would likely catch on quickly if i pick monsters that can hit him easily, or always use magic to get him. I plan on forbidding ToB and psionics after he dies, or general dips in classes. The reason being is he is a player who optimizes and believes if it can be done RAW the DM  HAS TO allow it. Until then im kinda stuck.He also hardcore role plays which makes this especially hard, and has the contradicting thought of: (paraphrasing)  "Your a dick DM if you build an encounter to deal with a specific person or the character strengths. Oh, but you need to include undead since our cleric is a niche undead blowing-up build" And will likely quit thus ending the game until 2 new people van be found. Since he is someone elses ride/ they will likely quit if he does.

One idea i had is psudonatural creatures with their 1/day true strike, but that can only last so long, likely an adventure or 2 before he also catches on.
Giving everything levels of a class with a good BaB is just a bit more w ork than I want to put in. Even advancing HD just to get it to hit is somethign i think is unnecessary him unless i need a better monster for the adventure im making for the whole group, not just him.  

The other idea I had is to start throwing in a good amount of dispel magic effects to deal with his inertial armor and items. But that still leaves him at 18-22 ac.

The only other this is the cleric is thinking of clever uses of spells, or taking their wording to heart. For example. I would say protection from evil would only apply to the mind control effects of evil creatures, or spells that have the evil discripter on them just to limit the power of the spell. Or trying to find a large number of objects using the detect objects spell on an item your looking at. So the spell either focuses on that one item your looking at, or a ton of similar objects. For example.  I had a trapped summoning gem that was being widely distributed in a large city,they had one.  His idea was to detect objects to find them all. Or since he detected thousands of mundane gems similar to it ( an item that would be all across this town for campaign specific reasons), to go around and detect magic and find them all. Which i ruled was unfeasible.  
Eventually i have to think of ways to abuse miracle since this guy is smart enough to not do anything obviously against the deity's wishes.

 So if anyone has any ideas on how to deal with these, any would be greatly appreciated.


Btw, i know i should have checked the guys build, but we had little time and the first adventure was a test to find out these things since we had a limited amount of time that day.

[oslecamo]

You may want to take a look at this guide.

[Littha]

I can only assume that he is a Psion 7/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1 or has some very specific feats because otherwise he wouldn't be able to spend 7pp on a power. Also bear in mind that Inertial armor doesn't stack with normal armor (though it will with the Swordsage bonus).

Another thing to consider is that if he optimised his character for AC then you can hopefully just ignore him and attack the rest of the party, at which point all his effort is going to waste. (plus with a base attack of 4 or 5 at level 9 he wont be hitting much in melee).

You can also try touch attacks (as long as they arent from incorporeal undead because of inertial armor) which can usually mess a character like this up.

I would seriously avoid banning psionics or ToB just because of this, they are some of the better balanced books in the whole of 3.5 and while you can produce strong characters with them you could do the same or much worse with a wizard cleric or druid.

On the other hand there is the cleric, finding inventive uses for spells and unique solutions to problems is a major part of why you are doing tabletop and not just playing a computer game.

Protection from evil: does block all mind control effects, not sure why but that is what it does.

I assume the second spell is locate objects not detect objects because i cant find a reference to that spell anywhere...

Locate objects:
Has a radius of 400ft +40ft per level so anything outside that wont be found
Is blocked completely by a thin sheet of lead. It might be reasonable to use the list of blocking substances from detect magic in this case.
Only finds the nearest item that matches the description.
Cant search for a specific item unless you have seen it first hand at some point.

[Shiki]

Out of the box I'd say to step up your challenges, but try not to use "DM counters" and the characters' weaknesses all the freaking time. Check out oslecamo's guide. And, for the love of whatever you cherish most, try not to ban books out of the blue for minor things like these (talking mostly about the Psi-ToB guy here). Bans needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. You may want to check out this thread for those.

[hollowzen]

I can only assume that he is a Psion 7/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1 or has some very specific feats because otherwise he wouldn't be able to spend 7pp on a power. Also bear in mind that Inertial armor doesn't stack with normal armor (though it will with the Swordsage bonus).

He has the practiced manifest feat from Complete Psionics. granting him a high enough manifester level to being the bonus up to 7. Hes Psion 3/Warblade 4/swordsage 2 and he is not using any armor.

Another thing to consider is that if he optimised his character for AC then you can hopefully just ignore him and attack the rest of the party, at which point all his effort is going to waste. (plus with a base attack of 4 or 5 at level 9 he wont be hitting much in melee).

You can also try touch attacks (as long as they arent from incorporeal undead because of inertial armor) which can usually mess a character like this up.

Ah, didnt think of that. Still, unless im forgetting something that only ignores his armor, not the sword sage bonus, dex, and doge bonus, deflection. leaving his bonus at a high 22. manageable but still a a bit annoying.

I would seriously avoid banning psionics or ToB just because of this, they are some of the better balanced books in the whole of 3.5 and while you can produce strong characters with them you could do the same or much worse with a wizard cleric or druid.

Mostly the reason behind it is most of the melee builds use dips and feats. The rogue in the party opted out of using ToB to avoid being over optimized. Otherwise he would be hitting for far more. Psionics is just a pain. If they wanted to go full psionics or one of those 1/2 psionic 1/2 something else builds for a prestigious class i wouldn't have much of a problem. It is a little harsh, but it just eliminates another variable from the equations that otherwise would have had to be monitored with players who optimize vs role-play. Its just so i have less books to monitor.

On the other hand there is the cleric, finding inventive uses for spells and unique solutions to problems is a major part of why you are doing tabletop and not just playing a computer game.

Protection from evil: does block all mind control effects, not sure why but that is what it does.

It is, but there is a difference between inventive uses and flat out pushing the limits of what is written or trying to fight the DM and not what the DM throws at you. The Pro: Evil spell i gave it to them since nothing otherwise indicated it just worked for evil.  The detect objects was a bit more broad and thus prompted the "you detect thousands of this gem" . Simply because going down the path of locating all the objects would have been a fools errand anyway.  They throw a wrench in that since they are looking at is Like its a video game. They want it both ways. When the cleric couldn't blow up some skeletons he got easily and visually frustrated. Simply since he "knows" he can blow up all undead at this level without large amounts of turn resistance.

I assume the second spell is locate objects not detect objects because i cant find a reference to that spell anywhere...

Locate objects:
Has a radius of 400ft +40ft per level so anything outside that wont be found
Is blocked completely by a thin sheet of lead. It might be reasonable to use the list of blocking substances from detect magic in this case.
Only finds the nearest item that matches the description.
Cant search for a specific item unless you have seen it first hand at some point.

yes, my mistake on the name.

The main problem with the 2 players is they are heavy optimizers, like to go by the books and think that if it works RAW it should work regardless  of the DM.  Thus any sort of creativity is viewed as the DM screwing with them. Luckily this is just a test for a campaign setting im building for a different group of people.


Added Quote
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Out of the box I'd say to step up your challenges, but try not to use "DM counters" and the characters' weaknesses all the freaking time. Check out oslecamo's guide. And, for the love of whatever you cherish most, try not to ban books out of the blue for minor things like these (talking mostly about the Psi-ToB guy here). Bans needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. You may want to check out this thread for those.

Those are both extremely helpful. The other reason is this person actually said to me  "Know how I get a good AC and good will saves on anything? Add 3 levels of Psion".   So i can surmise that unless he plays an armored class this would be the case most of the time.  So its possible it might be psionics and not ToB, since I can handle the stance and Maneuver feats/dips on a base by base case since its a bit more limited in scope than psionics.

[Littha]

If they like to go off strict RAW the swordsage only gets his bonus while wearing light armor, not while unarmored.

[hollowzen]

Ah, I will have to check that out as well. its possible hes counting inertial armor as armor.
This is actually my first time with people who optimize this badly, last group i didnt need to check all the time since they where more about the flavor.

[Littha]

A word of warning, around her trying to imply that optimisation is bad or that it conflicts with flavour will have people coming out of the woodwork to point you to the stormwind fallacy.

[hollowzen]

and?
Im not quite implying that specifically. What I meant by my last post is I could let someone optimize in my past game and not worry about anything particularly game breaking even if they did make their character good. These 2 people look at the game more from a number perspective and I actually must check what they do since they will optimized to break or shake the foundation of the game.

[PhaedrusXY]

Dude... I hate to be an ass... but you're having trouble as a DM because a guy has a 29 AC at level 9? People who actually know how to optimize often ignore AC because it is considered a useless defense... And 29 isn't even that high for that level... Be very glad this guy isn't playing a spellcaster, and really wrecking your game.

I swear I have to wonder if you're not trolling us...

Assuming you're not... who cares if the guy has a high AC? How does that in any way wreck your game? Seriously. Even if your NPCs can't hit him in melee combat... So what? They can still hit everyone else. So they're still a threat. It's not like he insta-kills them as soon as they appear, is it?

But even still, there are plenty of ways to ignore and/or hamper his "uber" AC: Have you tried tripping him? That gives a +4 to hit him, and if he stands up he draw an Attack of Opportunity. He also gets a -4 to his own attack rolls. Or how about using invisible/hidden opponents (denies Dex to AC and dodge bonuses, and they get a +2 to hit him)? Or touch attacks (including rays)? Or anything that just ignores AC and/or doesn't allow a save? At this level, you could be throwing spellcasters who hit them Evard's Black Tentacles + Acid Fog and then spam them with Fireballs, or something equally horrible.

And... even completely "out of the box", unoptimized, core monsters right out of the Monster Manual 1 that are appropriate CRs for them should hit an AC 29 easily... Seriously... for example: a were-dire boar hill giant has an attack mod of +21 with its non-magical, non-MW greatclub. Give it appropriate NPC wealth to use, and it would probably mop the floor with your guy.

A stock fire giant has an attack mod of +20, and it's only CR 10...

Grapple him. You only have to hit his touch AC to start the grapple, and some monsters can have insanely high grapple mods. He also can't use his weapons while grappled. Use something immune to crits, so that the rogue can't tear it up while it is grappling (he can sneak attack it). Maybe a buffed up tendriculous? It also has swallow whole (with paralyzing digestive juices) and regeneration as a bonus.

Or how about a Frost Worm? It could hopefully catch some of them with the Trill, but this guy would likely pass his save. Then it could attack him as a credible threat. It's CR 12 with a +21 attack mod. Give it the snatch feat for some grappling fun.

[hollowzen]

Well an ass you are. Oh so you found something that can hit him with a high attack bonus?  Your creativity abounds.
So happen to be a bit less familiar with the rules of optimization and had 1 session so far .. I was looking for a more interesting way to deal with  than something with a high bonus to attacks so it might actually miss some of the other party members, or possibly something I missed that could happen later on based on the information given.

Well the edits you added are actually a bit more interesting tactics than simply a big hitter.

[PhaedrusXY]

You've got several other suggestions besides using something with a "high" attack bonus. Look them over, take what you can use, and leave the rest. I apologize if I offended.

But seriously, this guy's AC is a non-issue. Monster attack bonuses scale much higher than player character ACs, unless they're highly optimized (and 29 at level 9 isn't). And even if their AC is highly optimized, it usually means that they've sunk so many resources into it that they're fairly useless in most other ways.

I can assure you that this guy isn't out to wreck your game. If he were, he'd be playing a spellcaster. Any melee character's optimization capacity is far behind any of the core full spellcasters (druids, clerics, wizards, or even sorcerers). All this guy can do is run around and stab things, for the most part. Tome of Battle gives melee characters a bit more versatility than that, but they still pale before what full casters can offer.

[hollowzen]

I have been looking them over, some of them I will actually use. I didnt want to use a big hitter since even if they are from the core book, he would either complain again (i brought up the idea after the session of putting them in because of that) or say they are too high a CR, so i was looking for other options.  I think the main problem is compare to how the other 3 work, its his general build I find troubling. His is the most optimized, even if its not completely optimized. Possibly stemming from wanting high defensive abilities to avoide taint easier with both saves and AC. I had yet to see how everyone compared to how the others work for the first session.
Generally with the links that have been posted i shouldn't have trouble tossing in something to deal with him. And yes i know that a spell-caster has more potential to break the whole game. But with the cleric I have a few in game ways to just cut off his divine power is cheese happens.

[Littha]

But with the cleric I have a few in game ways to just cut off his divine power is cheese happens.

Please don't do that...
Cutting off a clerics spells for pretty much any reason other than directly opposing his gods views is DM dickery of the highest level.

I understand what you are going through, you feel out of control because the players keep getting one up on you.
This happens to everyone (one of my first campaigns heavily featured valleys and chasms as a means of controlling the players... unfortunately they knew fly and spoiled them all and forced me to rewrite most of the campaign. It was a learning experience.) DM around the players rather than trying to come up with ways to make their powers stop doing what they should (my solution was covering all the chasms with anti magic fields. Which is an awful idea).

Having a good grasp on the rules helps, that locate object spell would be next to useless to search a city with, it has a duration of minutes/level and a radius of 400 feet. It would take weeks upon weeks to find the item they were searching for and that is only if it isn't inside a stone room or a lead box.

[LordBlades]

First of all, as others have said, 29 AC is nothing to write home about at level 9. A simple sword&board cleric/fighter(very suboptimal) can get there with minimum investment (12 dex, +2 full plate, +2 shield, +2 ring of protection +2 amulet of natural armor give you 29 AC for 24000 gold).

Secondly, you're bothered that you can't hit this guy, right? But what does he exactly do in combat? If he completely focused on defense then his offensive potential isn't great so just have monsters ignore him and focus on more dangerous party members.

Thrid, how exactly are you having trouble hitting him? Most level appropriate(CR 9-11) melee enemies should hit 29 AC pretty reliably. A few examples: Frost giant (CR 9, +19 to hit), Fire giant (CR 10, +20 to hit), Cloud Giant (CR11, +22 to hit), Young Adult black Dragon (CR9, +19 to hit), Barbed Devil (CR11, +18 to hit), Bebilith (CR 10, +19 to hit).

[veekie]

I think hes using mook monsters, never had a problem hitting either, and my players are rocking the same region of AC.
If you're using mooks, you need to use flanks, charging and other misc bonuses more, or have some of the mooks use things like Bless or Inspire Courage so they can make a difference at all.

[hollowzen]

But with the cleric I have a few in game ways to just cut off his divine power is cheese happens.

Please don't do that...
Cutting off a clerics spells for pretty much any reason other than directly opposing his gods views is DM dickery of the highest level.

I understand what you are going through, you feel out of control because the players keep getting one up on you.
This happens to everyone (one of my first campaigns heavily featured valleys and chasms as a means of controlling the players... unfortunately they knew fly and spoiled them all and forced me to rewrite most of the campaign. It was a learning experience.) DM around the players rather than trying to come up with ways to make their powers stop doing what they should (my solution was covering all the chasms with anti magic fields. Which is an awful idea).

Having a good grasp on the rules helps, that locate object spell would be next to useless to search a city with, it has a duration of minutes/level and a radius of 400 feet. It would take weeks upon weeks to find the item they were searching for and that is only if it isn't inside a stone room or a lead box.

I was thinking more along the lines of a well placed Quell, or use something like the Black Rain adventure. And I know about the locate object spell being impractical. I was just using it as an example before and got the name wrong, and when he tried using it in the fashion i described I ruled it infeasible right away, if for another reason entirely after looking at the actual spell.

I think hes using mook monsters, never had a problem hitting either, and my players are rocking the same region of AC.
If you're using mooks, you need to use flanks, charging and other misc bonuses more, or have some of the mooks use things like Bless or Inspire Courage so they can make a difference at all.

I think I must have since the session was at level 8(they are level 9 as of now) and I figured a group monsters was fitting around their level based on the guidelinesin the DMG but I can see now they are beyond the scope of that.

I guess the word optimized makes everyone think of the best possible builds with no grey area. Though i should have been more specific and said his character was the most optomized in the group (baring the cleric being amazing against undead).
But to anyone who bothers to point out the AC, using more powerful monsters, ect. Its been said and suggestion have been made. No need to comment with the same response other have already said. .

[veekie]

Well, mobs tend to miss, a lot. Its what makes it even practical to take them on with a party. Throw in some hostile terrain and its quite different. Throw in some 1-2 level 4 casters dropping spells and its another.

[RobbyPants]

But to anyone who bothers to point out the AC, using more powerful monsters, ect. Its been said and suggestion have been made. No need to comment with the same response other have already said. .

You don't actually have to go that powerful. You can stay completely level-appropriate. At level 9, 29 AC shouldn't be much of a big deal. It will limit you certainly, but you shouldn't be finding yourself with your hands tied. If you look through the Monster Manual for CR 9 threats, most of the solid beat sticks (Frost Giant and Dire Tiger (CR 8 actually)) should be able to hit on a natural 9 or 10. Even a lot of secondary beatsticks (like some demons and devils) will hit on a natural 12 to 15, and they get multiple attacks (so one will still likely hit) and they get spell-like abilities which should make things more interesting.

So, yeah, you can't just throw anything at him and expect it to hit a lot, but that's fine. That's the character's schtick: he's tough to hit. But getting creative, you can overcome or bypass his AC. Just be sure to mix up tactics so he doesn't feel like you're dicking with him. Also, it's fine to let him feel invulnerable once in a while. It's fun as a player to build a concept and watch it work. And like Litha said: if he becomes too tough to hit, smart opponents will simply avoid him and fight the softer targets, thus, negating his AC entirely.

Due to his large amount of dipping he also has above average saves, especially to sort of mind affecting magic.  While I could DM cheat, he would likely catch on quickly if i pick monsters that can hit him easily, or always use magic to get him. I plan on forbidding ToB and psionics after he dies, or general dips in classes. The reason being is he is a player who optimizes and believes if it can be done RAW the DM  HAS TO allow it. Until then im kinda stuck.He also hardcore role plays which makes this especially hard, and has the contradicting thought of: (paraphrasing)  "Your a dick DM if you build an encounter to deal with a specific person or the character strengths. Oh, but you need to include undead since our cleric is a niche undead blowing-up build" And will likely quit thus ending the game until 2 new people van be found. Since he is someone elses ride/ they will likely quit if he does.

One way to handle dipping in the future is to simply remove the +2 bonus you get for your "good" saves once you already have one. So, lets say someone starts out as Fighter 1 and gets +2 Fort. He then takes a level in Cleric getting +2 Fort and Will. With this variant, you say "you already have +2 Fort from Fighter, so you won't get the +2 bonus again, but you do get the +2 Will." So, basically, you simply subtract 2 from the good save column on each class to calculate saves. It reduces the effectiveness of dipping like crazy. Although I'd recommend using fractional saves too to avoid being overly punitive.

As for ToB and Psionics, I wouldn't ban them. At the levels you're playing at (8th and 9th), they shouldn't be much of a problem. Casters have a lot more tricks up their sleves, and it's only going to get worse. I can see ToB as coming off as overpowered at low levels, because a 1st level Warblade really is better than a Fighter or a Wizard at that level. He'll stay consistantly better than a Fighter his entire career, but the Wizard will pull out ahead. With a game starting at 8th level, I honestly don't see it as a problem.

The other idea I had is to start throwing in a good amount of dispel magic effects to deal with his inertial armor and items. But that still leaves him at 18-22 ac.

The occasional Dispel is a good counter to lots of buffs. I wouldn't over-use it, but it is a nice way to bring him down a notch once in a while or make him blow PP and a standard action to get it all back.


Good luck!

[Ikeren]

Another option if you're having trouble DMing is to get someone else in your group to DM, and then watch them carefully. Our group regularly cycles DM's and we all learn extensively from the things each of us choose to do (both mistakes and successes).