Author Topic: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force  (Read 3565 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RealMarkP

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« on: July 13, 2011, 04:29:03 PM »
I'm thinking of a tactic for my BBEG. In the case she is wounded, she will raise a wall of force between herself and the party. Prior to that (or in the same round via Quicken Spell) she manifests a Spectral Hand on the other side of the wall and use it to cast touch-based spells through it. As read, spells cannot be cast through the wall in either direction. But since the spectral Hand is on the other side of the wall, it should be able to invoke spells. The Wall of Force description does not say that spells stop if the caster is on the other side. Is this possible and, if you were in my place (as the DM), would you allow such a mechanic?

SneeR

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Sneering
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 05:09:58 AM »
You'd only get one casting through it: the hand returns and hovers next to you after a spell is cast from it. After that, it would be unable to pass through the wall. Presumably, the hand teleports by your side.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Drammor

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 06:26:22 AM »
This is an awesome tactic. I would approve wholeheartedly. But... is there a way to keep spectral hand from popping back to your side of the wall? Or perhaps a spell that can be used in lieu of spectral hand?

The_Laughing_Man

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 04:37:49 PM »
Couldn't the spectral hand (incorporeal) just go around the wall through whatever solid material is there?

The wall of force 0 ft thick so with careful maneuvering the hand should be in sight of the caster the whole time when going around the wall.

SneeR

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Sneering
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 11:25:53 PM »
Yes, if you can see through solid materials, you can get line of effect, and maneuver the hand through it.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Drammor

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 02:47:05 AM »
How do you see through solid materials?

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 03:30:21 AM »
Yes, if you can see through solid materials, you can get line of effect, and maneuver the hand through it.

Negative. Seeing throw it means you have LoS, not LoE. LoE is blocked if a physical object is in the way and covering the spaces you want to cast through.

Quote from: Line of Effect
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Laughing_Man

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 08:20:10 AM »
Yes, if you can see through solid materials, you can get line of effect, and maneuver the hand through it.

By maneuvering I was thinking this:
The hand "grabs" a hold of the wall of force. At that point the thumb is on the casters side and the other fingers are on the other side of the wall. The rest of the hand is within the solid material.

You can also do a "scientific" experiment.

1. Fill a kitchen sink with water.
2. Hold with your hand a chopping board perpendicular to the water so that it also touches the surface of water.
3. Maneuver your other hand from the other side of the board to the other through the water so that at least part of your palm stays always on top of the surface.
4. ???
5. Profit!! (with a wet hand)

 :D

RealMarkP

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 06:05:37 PM »
I'm thinking that the distance the hand hovers away from you is roughly a foot. If you press yourself against the wall, the hand will hover a foot away from you, on the other side of the wall. The spell itself emanates from the hand and not from you, making the wall a perfect shield.


The_Laughing_Man

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 09:03:15 AM »
The spell does not really say that the hand is one foot away from you. That would be a house rule.

The spell description does say that the hand moves as you desire. So going around the wall through solid material is not really an issue. Unless the material antimagical, riverine or made out of force.

Kasz

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 68
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2011, 06:09:57 AM »
This is really pedantic but what are the dimensions of this wall? Everyone says to go around... but guessing a 20ft high by 60ft wide wall and assuming you're ten feet away from the wall the hand has to travel about 30-40 ft to get to the edge then 5 ft into the wall, 5 ft to get to the other side then 5 ft out the wall, then it has LoE and LoS, but needs to travel further to perform touch attacks.

Going around the wall = minimum 45-55ft move

Going UNDER the wall. 5ft move down into the floor, 15ft move forward providing same conditions and 5ft move up out of the floor granting LoS and LoE.

Going under the wall = minimum 25ft move.

Redeemer of Ogar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • My wife's art page:
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 01:41:12 PM »
Why do so many people think that the wall doesn't block LoE?

Quote
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.

You clearly have line of sight, and can thus use gaze attacks, but Wall of Force is very solid and definitely blocks line of effect.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 01:44:57 PM »
Why do so many people think that the wall doesn't block LoE?

Quote
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.

You clearly have line of sight, and can thus use gaze attacks, but Wall of Force is very solid and definitely blocks line of effect.
I knew it blocked LoE. I just wasn't sure if you needed LoE for Spectral Hand. I guess it doesn't say you don't, though. The part about what happens if the hand goes out of Line of Sight made me think maybe you didn't need it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Redeemer of Ogar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • My wife's art page:
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 01:30:19 PM »
You clearly have line of sight, and can thus use gaze attacks, but Wall of Force is very solid and definitely blocks line of effect.
I knew it blocked LoE. I just wasn't sure if you needed LoE for Spectral Hand. I guess it doesn't say you don't, though. The part about what happens if the hand goes out of Line of Sight made me think maybe you didn't need it.

While I can accept that there is an argument for being able to control the Hand from the other side of the wall, I'm less willing to think that you can pump a fresh spell to it. Maybe if you're "holding a charge" that wouldn't trigger on touching the ceiling, you could cast and then move the hand through and over.

Is there any precedent spell? The only thing I can think of is Arcane Eye, which you can control without LoE, but I'm not aware of any spellcasting tricks that don't require LoE.

The_Laughing_Man

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 03:14:43 PM »
Incorporeal spectral hand do pass through solid material (including armor). Otherwise the charge would go off in the instant it touched the armor (negating the benefits of the incorporealism).

In case the armor has Ghost Touch on it then spectral hand does not pass through it. In which case one gains the armor bonus against incorporeal (touch) attacks.

Check out also Shocking grasp.

Other than that there are also these srd rules. Scroll down to Touch Spells in Combat. Normally if one touches anyone or anything the spell discharges. But if the hand is incorporeal then is one actually touching anything? Can one choose between touching and not touching?

About requiring LoE idk. Perhaps somebody can enlighten on that.

As a DM I would rule that spectral hand can go around wall of force but the distance travelled would likely be longer.

An interesting dilemma came to my mind. What if there are two gelatinous cubes in a 10 by 10 foot corridor. Can a spectral hand go through the first one and touch attack the second one in line with a spell? Or can one only toch attack the first one? LoS is there.

Redeemer of Ogar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • My wife's art page:
    • Email
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 01:07:09 PM »
Quote from: SRD Touch Attacks
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges...  Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge...  If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges

Quote from: SRD Spectral Hand
For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack.

So it is incorporeal ("having no physical body" though technically any detached hand has no physical body - tongue in cheek), which means it cannot actually touch anything except other incorporeal creatures, intentionally or otherwise. That definitely seems to mean it can go through the ceiling without triggering. Wall of Force "blocks ethereal" ... technically I think incorporeal is not blocked, but spells are explicitely blocked from passing through the wall, so that still forces the hand to go around.

The spell text explicitely allows you to deliver spells anyway, either via normal touch or via attack, so the fact that it cannot touch the target is not relevant. The hand has no listed speed, so there is no penalty to casting a spell on the hand then moving it around the wall.

Conclusion: OK, I'm convinced. As long as you can maintain line-of-sight on the hand as it goes carefully over the top of the wall of force, you can use it to cast past the wall.

The_Laughing_Man

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Spectral Hand & Wall of Force
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 05:31:36 PM »
... So it is incorporeal ("having no physical body" though technically any detached hand has no physical body - tongue in cheek), which means it cannot actually touch anything except other incorporeal creatures, intentionally or otherwise. ...

True. If other incorporeal creatures (or objects?) are touched then that would trigger the spell.

... The spell text explicitely allows you to deliver spells anyway, either via normajavascript:moreSmileys();l touch or via attack, so the fact that it cannot touch the target is not relevant. The hand has no listed speed, so there is no penalty to casting a spell on the hand then moving it around the wall. ...

Right! The hand has only range and no defined speed. So it zigzag within the range in anyway the caster wants. Silly me was thinking that the range would be the same as speed..