Author Topic: No Sublime Chord Handbook?  (Read 20834 times)

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MalcolmSprye

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No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« on: August 10, 2011, 12:20:10 PM »
So I noticed there's no Sublime Chord handbook.  There is a Bard handbook, true, but it is missing some things.  There is the guide to choosing Sorcerer spells, but SC has different choices.  I've read a fair amount, but my CO-fu is weak.

Things I'm interested in hearing people discuss:
-Good PrC's to advance SC casting: I know a couple, but my knowledge is limited.
-Level 4, 5, and 6 spells :  You're choosing between 3 spell lists; bard, sorc/wizard, and the handful of sorc only spells
-Uses for bardic music:  Is metamagic song useful?  If so, is it for persist, or for less costly metamagics?  Martial Adept dip with song of the white raven for action economy?
-If you're coming off a words of creation bard, what spells can benefit from the free extend (i.e. Conjuration(creation) spells with duration).  What Good aligned spells are there to benefit from the +1 CL (that's +5 CL including the SC music boost)? 
-Builds, and their strengths/weaknesses.

It really seems that these things are important, since these are the things that differentiate a SC from a normal sorcerer.
If anyone thinks of other things that should be discussed, toss them in too.

coollink

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 01:13:23 PM »
There are a few ways to go with a Sublime Chord. Personally, coming from a words of creation Bard I would go Malconvoker to advance SC casting. If you take the first level before SC you don't even lose spell casting levels.

Your summon monster spells would automatically be extended from words of creation, and your summon monsters would benefit from your bardic music. Summoned monsters can also use spell-like abilities to broaden your casting ability.

If you can use dragon magazine material see if you can take a feat called chaos music which is basically practiced spellcaster for bardic music. There is also a vest from DMG II that boosts bardic music by a few levels. I've always wanted to play a hellbred bard/SC/Malconvoker summoning evil monsters to fight evil to redeem himself.

For a build Bard 7/Malconvoker3/SC 2/Malconvoker 2from there you have a few options. You can take more malconvoker or more sublime chord. Depending on your starting level and how far your campaign goes you can wait on malconvoker to pick up more bard. Just make sure to take malconvoker 1 before 10th level. If your DM doesn't force alignment restrictions you can pick up mindbender instead of a level of bard. That way you have telepathy to communicate with your summoned monsters.

If malconvoker isn't your thing you can check out war weaver to be a super support character. Also with SC don't forget you get to pick up 5th and 6th level bard spells significantly earlier than a regular bard would. As for sorcerer spells to pick up I would recommend arcane fusion and its greater counterpart.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 01:27:21 PM »
There are a few ways to go with a Sublime Chord. Personally, coming from a words of creation Bard I would go Malconvoker to advance SC casting. If you take the first level before SC you don't even lose spell casting levels.

Your summon monster spells would automatically be extended from words of creation, and your summon monsters would benefit from your bardic music. Summoned monsters can also use spell-like abilities to broaden your casting ability.


WoC extends Conjuration(Creation) spells, not Conjuration(summoning).

Otherwise, that's a nice entry of PrC's that work with SC, since the caster level loss is mostly negated by SC's special caster progression.

Where's war weaver from?

coollink

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 01:48:54 PM »

WoC extends Conjuration(Creation) spells, not Conjuration(summoning).

Otherwise, that's a nice entry of PrC's that work with SC, since the caster level loss is mostly negated by SC's special caster progression.

Where's war weaver from?
Your right, for some reason I thought it was all conjuration. War Weaver is from Hero's of Battle page 112. the handbook is Herehttp://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 01:57:18 PM »
Does anyone ever take more than 2 levels of Sublime Chord? It seems to me that its one of those classes that people pick up a couple of and then switch to another prestige class.

I know thats what I'm planning on doing, planning to take a couple of levels in a Bardic gish build and then go Abjurant Champion.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 02:10:55 PM »
Does anyone ever take more than 2 levels of Sublime Chord? It seems to me that its one of those classes that people pick up a couple of and then switch to another prestige class.

I know thats what I'm planning on doing, planning to take a couple of levels in a Bardic gish build and then go Abjurant Champion.

Yah... my assessment of Sublime Chord is that it is at the same time one of the best and worst designed PrC's in the game.  It's nice that they made a high requirement PrC that gives full casting to bards, if you want to go that route.  And they came up with 2 cool class features: the odd caster progression, and the Song of Arcane Power.  And then the designers got lazy.  They give you a Situational CC song(situational, since you have to maintain it, which is like CC'ing yourself as well) at level 6, and crappy fireball as your level 20 capstone... and that's it!  They couldn't be bothered to even come up with moderate class features to fill the huge blank spaces.
So, it's great that it's a strong PrC.  It's terrible that there's pretty much no reason to ever take more than 2 levels of it.

kremti

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 04:51:13 PM »
Any PrC that's good for Sorcerer should be pretty good for SC.  Almost all the good *gish* PrCs work too.

I think Virtuoso is another good/obvious PrC to move SC casting...

One that I didn't think of before, and someone (I forgot) pointed out to me is that Arcane Archer is a good 2 level dip *before* you go into SC.

Also, ever popular Spellthief+Master Spellthief+SC for massive CL...

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ninjarabbit

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 06:53:55 PM »
Another thing to point out is that some spells appear at an earlier level on the bard spell list than the wizard/sorcerer spell list. For example greater dispel magic is a 5th level bard spell instead of a 6 level wizard spell and Otto's Irresistable dance is a 6th level bard spell instead of a 8th level wizard spell.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 06:58:50 PM »
@Kremti Sources on those PrC's

@ninjarabbit Exactly part of what I think would go into a handbook:  which bard spells give you the same spell at lower levels(and are worthwhile)?

kremti

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 07:16:35 PM »
Virtuoso is CAdv...
Arcane Archer is DMG...
Spellthief is CAdv *base* class, and Master Spellthief is a feat from CScoundrel...

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awaken DM golem

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 04:52:36 PM »
Any way to use Nar Demonbinder as an early entry?

I'm thinking Cleric 1 / Ardent 2 / Mystic Psychic Theurge X with the early entry Psiotheurgist approach.
Ardent with Magic Mantle can qualify for Nar, but doesn't get 9s without versatile or similar.
Hence Sub Chord but the whole thing is running out of feat slots.
Bard 1 can be tagged in here. Needs lots of help to keep MAD from happening.

Of course the kosherness is trending away from r.a.i.
 :D



EDIT --- psychic not mystic. I'm bad  :banghead
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:34:18 PM by awaken DM golem »

gorfnad

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 06:16:53 PM »
Most of the builds I've seen only use 2 levels of Sublime Chord. Here is a list of some of the interesting if not mildly useful ones

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 8/ Pale Master 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Pale Master 8 (feats: Requiem and Arcane Disciple: Necromancer [ECS] Domain)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:58:52 PM by gorfnad »

ninjarabbit

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 07:48:04 PM »
@ninjarabbit Exactly part of what I think would go into a handbook:  which bard spells give you the same spell at lower levels(and are worthwhile)?

Dominate person, greater dispel magic, Otto's irresistable dance, mass suggestion, shadow walk, greater heroism, mass charm monster, legend lore, mass reflective disguise, greater scrying, greater shout

SorO_Lost

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 12:49:21 AM »
Most of the builds I've seen only use 2 levels of Sublime Chord. Here is a list of some of the interesting if not mildly useful ones

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 8/ Pale Master 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Pale Master 8 (feats: Requiem and Arcane Disciple: Necromancer [ECS] Domain)
The Bard/Crusader/AC/JPM one is pretty damn powerful.

Of course you don't really have to be Bard based at all.
W/E 7 / Ur-Priest 1 / Bard 1 /  Sublime Chord 1 / Mystic Theurge 9 grants double 9s.
Druid 9 (or 5 & Warshaper 4) / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochluchan Lyricist 9 (or lime 2 / Arcane Hierophant 8) is a Druid on crack.
Even the Monk can get in on this, his super concealment and FoB/Snap Kick/Lighting Fists/Circle Kick giving him an insane number of attacks can be greatly augmented with a little Inspiration and 9th level spells.



Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Caelic

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 12:54:37 AM »
Druid 9 (or 5 & Warshaper 4) / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochluchan Lyricist 9 (or lime 2 / Arcane Hierophant 8) is a Druid on crack.


Where's the Evasion coming from in this build?  For that matter, where are the 3rd level arcane spells necessary to enter Sublime Chord coming from?

Shiki

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 01:05:11 AM »
Druid 9 (or 5 & Warshaper 4) / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochluchan Lyricist 9 (or lime 2 / Arcane Hierophant 8) is a Druid on crack.


Where's the Evasion coming from in this build?  For that matter, where are the 3rd level arcane spells necessary to enter Sublime Chord coming from?

Ring of Evasion/Shape Soulmeld (impulse boots) and Southern Magician? I think.
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Widow

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 03:06:18 AM »
I have posted this on other sublime chord boards for the persistent sublime chord with clerical casting:


Level 4:
Divine Power
Inner Beauty (+4 Sacred bonus to Dex and Cha)
Thunderlance (Cha attack and damage)
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Cha to one save plus extras.  Reflex choice gives evasion)
Sirine's Grace (Cha to AC as deflection)

Level 6
Heal/Harm
Nixie's Grace (Large Enhancement bonus to Cha)

L7
Arcane Spellsurge (free quicked spells basically)
L9
Visage of the Deity Greater (Unlisted bonus to all ability scores)

SorO_Lost

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 04:04:51 AM »
Druid 9 (or 5 & Warshaper 4) / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochluchan Lyricist 9 (or lime 2 / Arcane Hierophant 8) is a Druid on crack.


Where's the Evasion coming from in this build?  For that matter, where are the 3rd level arcane spells necessary to enter Sublime Chord coming from?
Shape Soulmeld, Ring of Evasion, Legacy, I thin even a Touchstone can grant Evasion.
As for 3rd level, thought it was 2nd. Revision: Sublime Chord 1 / Minbender 1 / Any Caster Level +1 / Arcane Hierophant 7
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Caelic

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 03:29:10 PM »
Shape Soulmeld, Ring of Evasion, Legacy, I thin even a Touchstone can grant Evasion.



Yeah, those work, I suppose.  I have a huge aesthetic issue with builds that can lose half their abilities by removing a ring, personally, but YMMV.

SorO_Lost

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Re: No Sublime Chord Handbook?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 04:37:16 PM »
Shape Soulmeld, Ring of Evasion, Legacy, I thin even a Touchstone can grant Evasion.



Yeah, those work, I suppose.  I have a huge aesthetic issue with builds that can lose half their abilities by removing a ring, personally, but YMMV.
Legacy Grafts are your new friend. The revision doesn't go Hierophant until level 14 and a Legacy item can grant Evasion by the 13th level. As a graft it cannot be disarmed, sundered, or really anything short of someone slicing your limbs off - to which there is no rules and pretty much falls under a Finish Him type thing against totally helpless people - and death.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]