Author Topic: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell  (Read 4789 times)

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Tr011

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Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« on: August 14, 2011, 11:10:28 PM »
I quite don't get what exactly it does.
First, you have to sneak attack anyone. Now you can subtract 1d6 sneak attack damage to steal a spell.
First problem: Do (if yes: how) I know if the target has the ability to cast spells or not? Should I just subtract 1d6 sneak damage vs. anyone who could possibly be a cleric?
Now I can choose what spell to steal.
Second problem: How the heck should I know what spells or even spell levels my enemy has? I only see solutions via Knowledge (local), Sense Motive (CR/2=highest spell slot) or targeting a previously cast spell.
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At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level
Third problem: Assuming I'm Spellthief 1/Wizard 10, I can steal 5th level spells but can only hold one 1st lvl spell or two lvl-0-spells?
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Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower
Fourth problem: Assuming I managed to steal a useful spell I could cast on my own, could I cast it now even if I'm not Spellthief 4?

Would be nice if you can help me with these rule questions. Also, I didn't found anything useful in the Complete Adventurer Errata or the 3.5 FAQ.

Mudkipz

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Re: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 11:37:20 PM »
1- Sorry, but you will sometimes have to guess. I would generally not give up your sneak attack unless you have observed the enemy previously casting spells.

2- Can't help you there, but spontaneous casters are your best friend if you know what spells they have.

3- I'm not sure, but I believe Master Spellthief should help you here.

4- Yes

Bozwevial

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Re: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 11:47:43 PM »
Arcane Sight will let you concentrate as a standard action to find out whether a creature has spells/SLAs available and how powerful its best one(s) are.

Sorator

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Re: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 01:10:15 AM »
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First problem: Do (if yes: how) I know if the target has the ability to cast spells or not? Should I just subtract 1d6 sneak damage vs. anyone who could possibly be a cleric?
You do not know, unless you use something like detect magic (debatable), arcane sight, or some other effect. You may be able to guess at their class, however (if they're wearing robes it may be worth a shot), or wait till they use a spell.

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Second problem: How the heck should I know what spells or even spell levels my enemy has? I only see solutions via Knowledge (local), Sense Motive (CR/2=highest spell slot) or targeting a previously cast spell.
Quote from: Steal Spell desc
A spellthief can choose which spell to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell that isn't available, the stolen spell (or spell slot) is determined randomly from among those that the target has available.
So, you can hazard a guess if there's a particular spell you really want to steal or really don't want cast against you, or you can target a spell the fellow has already cast. Trying to guess won't hurt, because if you're wrong you'll still steal something random, and if you don't specify you'll also steal something random. You may be able to talk your DM into letting you specify a spell level, or descriptor, or something that could still be handy (if you're level 8, then you may want to specify stealing a 4th or 5th level spell, since that's probably the highest spell level your enemy can cast) - but of course that is up to your DM. At worst, you can always get something random, which may or may not be helpful. (Also remember that you can use things like Knowledge (local), Gather Information, and divination spells if you have prep time before the battle with the BBEG.)

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Third problem: Assuming I'm Spellthief 1/Wizard 10, I can steal 5th level spells but can only hold one 1st lvl spell or two lvl-0-spells?
That's debatable... I think RAW you're correct - Master Spellthief lets you steal higher level spells but not store them for later use the way a full-classed Spellthief can. It's still a handy side effect, at the least. You may also be able to talk your DM into letting your levels stack for the purpose of storing spells as well as stealing them - it's entirely possible that was an oversight by those who wrote that feat (it's not covered in CAd or CSc errata, but not every oversight is caught in time for errata...).

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Fourth problem: Assuming I managed to steal a useful spell I could cast on my own, could I cast it now even if I'm not Spellthief 4?
There's a few issues here.
1. When a spelltheif steals a spell, he can cast that spell as if it were cast by the fellow he stole it from; that's explained in the bulk of the steal spell ability description. Assuming you can hold the spell at all (see your third problem), then you can also cast it. The bit you quoted doesn't have anything to do with being able to cast the spell you stole.

2. The ability you quoted allows you to use the spell you stole to power one of your spellthief class spells. This isn't a separate facet of the steal spell ability (it's not mentioned on the class's summary chart), it's just that spellthieves don't gain the ability to cast their own spells until level 4 (look at their spell progression). Since you only have 1 level of Spellthief, and since Master Spellthief stacks caster levels but not spell progression, you can't cast any Spellthief spells, and so you can't use the spells you steal to power extra castings of Spellthief spells (you don't know any Spellthief spells to cast). If you can talk your DM into letting Master Spellthief also stack spells per day and spells known, then you could indeed cast Spellthief spells with the energy from your stolen spells, yes.

3. You didn't mention it, but just to be clear, you cannot use the stolen spell energy to cast a Wizard spell either; the Steal Spell description specifically limits it to casting Spellthief spells and not spells from other classes, and nothing from Master Spellthief counteracts that. Again, you may be able to convince your DM otherwise, but RAW it doesn't work that way.

Tr011

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Re: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 02:35:01 AM »
Thanks for your fast answers^^
I think I'll discuss then my DM to random only of a given spell level when I fail to say a specific spell and I'll discuss the maximum to hold. I hope that's OK with him, also I'll get Arcane Sight so I can check my enemies for casters (or even my familiar could check them xD)

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Re: Spellthief questions about Steal Spell
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 05:33:22 AM »
I think it's reasonable to let you specify spell level, but I'm not your DM, so... *shrug*

Worst come to worst, go through and pick a handful of wizard spells, cleric spells, and druid spells that you really don't like (a few for each spell level, I suppose), and just default to that list if you haven't seen them cast something/would rather steal a random spell than what you've seen them cast.

You might be able to make a case for stealing a cure/inflict spell of a given spell level from a cleric, or a summon nature's ally spell from a druid, since they can spontaneously switch spells out for those, but that's pretty shaky ground... it's another way of specifying spell level, though. Unless you can talk him into letting you hold the spells you steal, all you're really doing is denying the enemy caster the chance to cast that spell since you can't use it yourself; might try it in that case.