Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?

[ImperatorK]

How is this not just a Rule 0 fallacy?  Just b/c you can change something, in this case the pervasive canon, how does that not imply that it has a defect?  Indeed, the fact that such a change is needed or perceived to be needed, would seem to indicate the presence of just such a defect.

What "Rule 0 Fallacy", man? I'm not changing anything. If I'm not including canon NPCs in my game I'm not changing anything. Especially if there are completely plausible reasons for that. If your players are storming Elminsters house on 1st level then you might be right.
How often do you walk into a celebrity? Politician? Some other famous/important dude? Often enough to whine "Celebrities are everywhere! They're outshining us, gray, hardworking people!"? It's the same with NPCs. You don't stumble on epic wizards walking down the street, but you might stumble on one if you intrude into his tower, but then it's your fault, not the settings.

Adventurers aren't extinct, they are many things in the Realms, but what they aren't is world changers. They protect caravans from CR 12-15 bandits(believe it or not, I've seen caravan guards with Brilliant Energy wearpons using 7th level spells), they explore dungeons and get amusingly killed, they chase down, or ARE pirates.

They do not change the world.

EDIT: To clarify, I've seen said guards in actual Realms novels.

Not FRs fault that you play bland, uninteresting adventures.
To be honest, I didn't play that much FR games. But I've SEEN many FR games and let me tell you, some of them reach even epic levels. The PCs weren't just some mooks. No. They earned their place among the powerful. They where friends with Elminster, Alustriel, helped Drizz't one time, rescued him the other. They where the first line in the war with Zentharim, etc.
Maybe that where just exceptionally devoted fans of FR who ignored the "imperfections" of the setting. Who knows. But from what I've seen, there where NO problems.
You can say "FR isn't in my taste, too epic." or "Meh, I don't like too much per-established lore. I like to create my worlds myself.". That's perfectly fine. But presenting that as the settings flaw in an argument against it?

Oh, and what Arturick said.

[weenog]

Celebrities rare.   Obviously someone hasn't lived in the Napa Valley for any significant length of time.

In most settings that aren't FR, the rich and famous don't live on your block so you have to pass their house every time you go out to buy a pack of smokes, and take an active interest in micromanaging and keeping anyone else from climbing the ladder.

[veekie]

What prevents Orcus from showing up at 1st level and stomping your party flat?

You are not in his area of interest and its a long commute from the Abyss.

Maybe after you blow up a few cults of Orcus. If theres a prophecy alerting that you are a threat, then for the prophecy to be true you would HAVE to be a threat, meaning the very future that predicts those who would be his downfall would arrange for such threats to grow to power. Other sources of information are wide, a Lord of the Nine rules an infinite sized planar layer, owns hundreds of others, and influences even more. They have an infinite sized area to extend near infinite power, and indeed, they are stretched thin.

Maybe we should put out a metric. CR per square mile of control. CR per square mile of influence. The Realms has the former as a large number indeed. If your adventure premise falls inside the area of influence, you might encounter their agents, which is fine. If your premise threatens to intersect their area of control, then they can and WILL turn up. In fact, a lot of them explicitly possess means to monitor their entire area accurately, so not knowing would imply special causation.

No, but Planescape STANDS without the Powers That Be. If you, at one fell swoop, annihilated the Lady, and all the alignment faction leaders, things remain stable, the balance of power remains. The forces of Hell and the Abyss remain matched, with one side using superior organizaton and strategy, while the other boasting numbers and tactics. You can change things, whatever the level, because the conflict extends all the way down to the least lemure. But you change things at the lemure level if you fight lemures, eventually drawing attention from the higher powers and becoming a pivot as each side notices your growing role in the conflict.

Compare this, the Simbul's nation survives against Thay because of Her alone. She literally flies out of her castle with a custom spell that allows simultaneous wands and staves to be activated, and personally vaporises enemy forces. remove her, and the balance of power is nonexistent. The leaders do not reflect the led, nor any economy or strategic arrangements.

Same goes for the evil factions, remove their leader, watch the house of cards crumble. Manshoon, Szass, the list goes on. There are exceptions of course. The areas depend on who develops them.

It's a world full of retired PCs, because this is exactly what PCs at the end of level 1-30 campaigns used to do, pick out the kingdom they want with all their awesome stuff and settle in. It's a post-game setting, the story is over.

[borsniel]

agreed with veekie, im playing in a FR game right now and its getting annoying. were just being bossed around by a bunch of epic level npcs, and as soon as i build a 15th lv PC that can sand p to them the dm made me change him. its the main reason i prefer ebberon, no uber high npcs running around screwing you over.

[ImperatorK]

Compare this, the Simbul's nation survives against Thay because of Her alone. She literally flies out of her castle with a custom spell that allows simultaneous wands and staves to be activated, and personally vaporises enemy forces. remove her, and the balance of power is nonexistent. The leaders do not reflect the led, nor any economy or strategic arrangements.

And what are the PCs doing? Here's a chance to shine. you where whining that you don't have one and you have and you've got ridden of that annoying Witch-Queen. It's a Win-Win situation.

Same goes for the evil factions, remove their leader, watch the house of cards crumble. Manshoon, Szass, the list goes on. There are exceptions of course. The areas depend on who develops them.

Um... But that happened. Manshoon got offed by his underling, Fzoul. It was a minor hickup in FRs history known as Clone Wars (or something like that).

agreed with veekie, im playing in a FR game right now and its getting annoying. were just being bossed around by a bunch of epic level npcs, and as soon as i build a 15th lv PC that can sand p to them the dm made me change him. its the main reason i prefer ebberon, no uber high npcs running around screwing you over.

and here I see a fine example of something I like to call "douche DM". Note that this has nothing to do with the setting. With such a DM you would be bossed by some generic epic wizards. Or The Lords of Dust, if you would play in Ebberon. Different setting, different names, but all the same.
Again. Nowhere do I see a rule that your players HAVE to interact with famous/more powerful NPCs in the setting. They're optional, like everything else, in any setting.

its the main reason i prefer ebberon, no uber high npcs running around screwing you over.

So in your games the dragons, Lords of Dust, Rajahs, etc. don't exist? So you're playing a homebrewed look-alike Ebberon. Gotcha.

[veekie]

^^
Thats exactly the point. You have to START by offing at least some of the NPCs holding the status quo...which is where you are no longer playing in the Realms as published, and in a homebrew Realms. You have thus, overcome the flaw.

Unless of course your PCs decided to join the Thayans to raid the Witch Queen and get vaporized by her custom spells.

Dragons, Lords of Dust, Rakshasa Rajahs act on a different level to the Ten Nations. The Dragons are on a remote continent and prefer to stay there. The other two are sleeping and the Quori are an entire plane away(though they're working on it!). The status quo is as it is in the present day because of the balance of power between the nations, not infinitely potent individuals.

Much like the Blood War example, PCs CAN make a difference because the conflict is between interests and at many levels. You can interfere with supply, engage in skirmishes with combatable foes, etc. An actual nation as a foe grants that much more depth and manageability to a conflict, as you are at once fighting something you can handle(taking on armies one squad at a time, or breaking chains of command), yet immensely larger than your PCs. And when you make it to the boss enemy, what do you have? The teen leveled Vol and Jaela? Kaius or the Lord of Blades? You can kill those with armies if you want, if you can get them in the open. They are defeatable, if strong, you just have to work through their command structure and support first.

[Sinfire Titan]

Because the PCs are the heroes and powerful NPCs aren't rescuing their asses all the time?

What you just described is a DMPC. And the PCs wouldn't be heroes, they would be meat shields at best in that case.


If any of those NPCs were as powerful as they should have been when the ELH was written, there would be no gods in FR. Eliminster and other Epic Spellcasters would have supplanted them outright. Even the overdeity is a cakewalk to a properly played Epic Spellcaster.

There would be no encounters in FR, because the Epic NPCs would have taken care of all of them to make things safer for their own species or specific allies. And the ones that wouldn't protect people would end up becoming enemies of the Epic NPCs who would protect their own kindred, and that NPC would die horribly.



The Realms should not be in the state the books depict it in. Also:

Well, let's see how they introduced the setting.  Surely the introductory module from the Forgotten Realms box set is something they spent time on, trying to give players a good first impression of the setting, as well as establishing the general tone of it for DMs.

If the PCs run low on resources, you can have Elminster pass by with his dog. He is waving a stick at it, shouting 'Heel!' trying to get it to walk next to him. However, the stick is a wand of healing, so he'll heal the party in the process. Then he goes away.

While not that bad, the sample module in the FRCS itself (listed as being appropriate for an EL 1 or EL 2 party) expects the party to fight no less than 9 1st-3rd level Wizards and has multiple CR4 encounters over the course of a single day. And it tells the DM to have an EL 6 NPC Wizard stop the big bad of the module.

This setting is not PC friendly.

[ImperatorK]

which is where you are no longer playing in the Realms as published, and in a homebrew Realms. You have thus, overcome the flaw.

Um... Realms as published? You mean post-Spellplague or pre? 1375 or 1372? Or maybe the Crown Wars?

What you just described is a DMPC. And the PCs wouldn't be heroes, they would be meat shields at best in that case.

DM is using NPCs as DMPCs. How is this not the DM being the problem again?

If any of those NPCs were as powerful as they should have been when the ELH was written, there would be no gods in FR. Eliminster and other Epic Spellcasters would have supplanted them outright. Even the overdeity is a cakewalk to a properly played Epic Spellcaster.

There would be no encounters in FR, because the Epic NPCs would have taken care of all of them to make things safer for their own species or specific allies. And the ones that wouldn't protect people would end up becoming enemies of the Epic NPCs who would protect their own kindred, and that NPC would die horribly.

This can be said about any default D&D setting. Remember, FR epic NPCs aren't the only ones stated up in ELH.

While not that bad, the sample module in the FRCS itself (listed as being appropriate for an EL 1 or EL 2 party) expects the party to fight no less than 9 1st-3rd level Wizards and has multiple CR4 encounters over the course of a single day. Never mind the ECL 6 Red Wizard NPC, who is the Big Bad of the module. The only saving grace about that NPC is she banned Conjuration, but she is still a Transmuter specialist (with Evocation being banned, and Evocation spells prepared, and is missing one more school because of Red Wizard levels).

That is just silly. I blame whatever the writers where smoking at the time. Elminster helping 1st level PCs in a pinch is something taken from the Dongeons and Dragons cartoon or an 10 year old DM that is DMing his first game.

[Unbeliever]

Maybe, maybe not.  But, FR adds an extra layer to all these things.

Furthermore, is Orcus or Asmodeus the single most easily identifiable thing about D&D?  Is he on the cover of practically every book from a given product line?  No, he isn't.  The DMPCs of Forgotten Realms are.  I dare you to ask anyone to name as many places as they can in the Realms.  Then ask them to name as many powerful NPCs.  See how the lists stack up. 

But, listen, no one has offered a goddamned defense of this setting.  No one has said, "wow, it's really cool that Elminster is there!  I'm so thrilled, I just fucking love the Elminster, give me some more Elminster!"  At best, and I want to emphasize that, at BEST we've heard:  (1) you can work around it, or (2) this just exacerbates an underlying problem that other campaign worlds have. 

That, is not much of a sales pitch. 

P.S.:  I contend that the amount of FR lore, its most readily identified features, and the way it is structured makes the bolded part harder than it has to be, and would be in other settings.

[Sinfire Titan]

This can be said about any default D&D setting. Remember, FR epic NPCs aren't the only ones stated up in ELH.

Actually, this doesn't apply to Eberron. The three most powerful (non-Dragon) NPCs are 1) The Lolipope, but only while in the main cathedral, 2) An awakened tree that can't move on it's own, and has no item creation feats, and 3) A CR 16 Vampire Aristocrat 2/Fighter 11, and he's screwed because of a deity (said deity happens to be a 16th level character too).

Most of the NPCs in that setting can be killed too. None of them are making the world go round (unless the Dragonic Prophecy says otherwise, but that isn't exactly a writ of diplomatic immunity).

Elminster helping 1st level PCs in a pinch is something taken from the Dongeons and Dragons cartoon or an 10 year old DM that is DMing his first game.

Do we need to get Kevin_video in this thread? Because I will get him if needed. And he will prove you wrong on that.

[ImperatorK]

The DMPCs of Forgotten Realms are.  I dare you to ask anyone to name as many places as they can in the Realms.  Then ask them to name as many powerful NPCs.  See how the lists stack up.

That's the price of being popular, baby.

But, listen, no one has offered a goddamned defense of this setting.  No one has said, "wow, it's really cool that Elminster is there!  I'm so thrilled, I just fucking love the Elminster, give me some more Elminster!"  At best, and I want to emphasize that, at BEST we've heard:  (1) you can work around it, or (2) this just exacerbates an underlying problem that other campaign worlds have.

Yeah, because I didn't admit that I'm most probably a fanboi. Oh wait, I did! In my first post. Go figure.
In case that that's not enough for you:
I like FR. I like Elminster. I like Mystra, although I find her constant "rebooting" silly. I like The Seven Sisters ('cause they're hot babes). Etc.

Actually, this doesn't apply to Eberron. The three most powerful (non-Dragon) NPCs are 1) The Lolipope, but only while in the main cathedral, 2) An awakened tree that can't move on it's own, and has no item creation feats, and 3) A CR 16 Vampire Aristocrat 2/Fighter 11, and he's screwed because of a deity (said deity happens to be a 16th level character too).

Most of the NPCs in that setting can be killed too. None of them are making the world go round (unless the Dragonic Prophecy says otherwise, but that isn't exactly a writ of diplomatic immunity).

I'm not particularly familiar with Ebberon, so could you remind me, what is the average level that is played in this setting? 3? 5? I heard that a 6th level NPC is already a seasoned hero on Ebberon. They're still stomped on by the powerful, the scale is just lower.

Whatever. You call it a flaw, I call it a feature (that I like). Lets agree to disagree.

@ The guy who said "I like FR, but I hate how it works"
You're contradicting yourself. You hate the very basic principal of the setting - epicness and detailed lore. It's what the setting IS. you can either like it or hate it.

Do we need to get Kevin_video in this thread? Because I will get him if needed. And he will prove you wrong on that.

Why not. I'd very much like to hear some stories of a 10 year old DM.

[Shiki]

Freaking spell Eberron correctly. It is "Eberron" not "Ebberon" or w/e else. Pretty please, and thank you.

[ImperatorK]

Sorry. I always mix them up.

[veekie]

I'm not particularly familiar with Ebberon, so could you remind me, what is the average level that is played in this setting? 3? 5? I heard that a 6th level NPC is already a seasoned hero on Ebberon. They're still stomped on by the powerful, the scale is just lower.

A 6th level NPC is a Hero of the Last War. There is an entire Knight company that depends on casting Phantom Steed, so they are by no means uncommon(though IIRC said Knights are all basically officer grade).

You know, as anyone who earned a Purple Heart in WW2 is a Hero of the World War?

Eberron play ranges:
1-5: Pick one of the Five nations and play inside it, deal with lightning rail brigands, thugs or aggressive wildlife. Join the army for a skirmish. Join the expedition to Xendrik and get eaten by interesting wildlife. Get stampeded by dinosaur mounted halflings! The big names of the setting aren't significant to you, though you know of them.
6-10: You've distinguished yourself in some way, and are at least locally famous. Veterans of the Last War tend to start hereabouts. You're officer grade material. You can even go to Argonessen and avoid the dragons, they aren't that common even on the continent infested with them. You probably can expect to enter the Mournland's dangers and come out of it alive and with loot. You have a fighting chance against the Lord of Blades or awaken/reseal a Lord of Dust. You can start tangling with the extraplanar stuff like Quori, though you have to act carefully and against lone agents.
11-15: You are a minor legend in your own right and the Powers take notice of you. Handily enough by now you're a peer of them in direct power, if not in politics or social influence. You and a band of friends might feasibly take on the lolipope or pretty much any faction leader in the Five Nations, but Xendrik, Argonessen and the planes await. Its a long commute though, so pack your airships.
16-20: You're as powerful as just about any active entity in two out of three continents, so you can go pick fights with dragons in Argonessen, go poke the Lords of Dust or battle the Quori in their own realm. History if yours, if you have wisdom.

[ImperatorK]

A 6th level NPC is a Hero of the Last War. There is an entire Knight company that depends on casting Phantom Steed, so they are by no means uncommon(though IIRC said Knights are all basically officer grade).

I didn't say that they where.

Eberron play ranges:
1-5: Pick one of the Five nations and play inside it, deal with lightning rail brigands, thugs or aggressive wildlife. Join the army for a skirmish. Join the expedition to Xendrik and get eaten by interesting wildlife. Get stampeded by dinosaur mounted halflings! The big names of the setting aren't significant to you, though you know of them.
6-10: You've distinguished yourself in some way, and are at least locally famous. Veterans of the Last War tend to start hereabouts. You're officer grade material. You can even go to Argonessen and avoid the dragons, they aren't that common even on the continent infested with them. You probably can expect to enter the Mournland's dangers and come out of it alive and with loot. You have a fighting chance against the Lord of Blades or awaken/reseal a Lord of Dust. You can start tangling with the extraplanar stuff like Quori, though you have to act carefully and against lone agents.
11-15: You are a minor legend in your own right and the Powers take notice of you. Handily enough by now you're a peer of them in direct power, if not in politics or social influence. You and a band of friends might feasibly take on the lolipope or pretty much any faction leader in the Five Nations, but Xendrik, Argonessen and the planes await. Its a long commute though, so pack your airships.
16-20: You're as powerful as just about any active entity in two out of three continents, so you can go pick fights with dragons in Argonessen, go poke the Lords of Dust or battle the Quori in their own realm. History if yours, if you have wisdom.

Now change 1-5 description to be the description of 6-10 (1-5 are now peasants and regular townsfolk), 6-10 into 11-15 and 16-20 into 21+. You're now playing FR.
I can understand that some people don't like epic games and therefore don't like FR. But it's not a flaw. It's just different type of play, is all.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm not particularly familiar with Ebberon, so could you remind me, what is the average level that is played in this setting? 3? 5? I heard that a 6th level NPC is already a seasoned hero on Ebberon. They're still stomped on by the powerful, the scale is just lower.

3rd level is considered Heroic in Eberron. Anyone above 7th level is considered a living legend. And it's amazing how few of them there are compared to FR.

Whatever. You call it a flaw, I call it a feature (that I like). Lets agree to disagree.

It's a feature to have a 6th level NPC steal the glory from a 1st level party?

Why not. I'd very much like to hear some stories of a 10 year old DM.

Be prepared to cry.

Now change 1-5 description to be the description of 6-10 (1-5 are now peasants and regular townsfolk), 6-10 into 11-15 and 16-20 into 21+. You're now playing FR.

Except that even WotC believed that being above 6th level meant you were considered a master of your class. Being above 3rd level is a miracle of luck or a testament of strategy in DnD. FR fucked this up.

[veekie]

The difference:
FR high level NPCs seek to maintain the status quo. This means weaker PCs acting to change things are likely to include one of their status quo sectors in it. The NPC needs to be kept from reverting the status.
Planescape high level NPCs seek to achieve inscrutable goals by the standards of mortals. They might as well be the weather for all the sense they make. You can predict it but understanding it is going to make you loopy.
Eberron high level NPCs seek to alter the status quo. A large number of them, especially the most potent, are unable to act(by dint of being unconscious, sealed or otherwise unavailable), but the rest are pushing against each other, as their desired end states conflict.
Greyhawk high level NPCs are mostly adventurer types. Powerful wild cards in a potent deck.
Ravenloft high level NPCs are antagonists, you can't really defeat them straight(the setting being horror).
It makes a very stable setting without Plot events intentionally tipping the scales. Generally it involves killing Mystra. Again.

Power gap is another. The span between tiers of power are fairly sizable, especially with the uniques. Any of the archwizards can take on effectively infinite amounts of lesser tiers. Most other settings rarely have the gap so vast. Dark lords have armies and strongholds for a reason, because when push comes to shove, a large enough mob will stop even them. When push comes to shove against the big names the challengers....cannot make contact to start with.

Now consider with application of power. Any ONE of those archmagi can completely redefine life within their sphere of influence(and for areas under Mythals, they have) with idle time and investment. Mostly they just screw around, being mysterious, swatting assassins out of the sky(I've also read Elminister swatting assassins out of the sky through his window while having tea, yet somehow having the time to craft custom artifacts, but not doing anything ELSE with his crafting). They sit on their hands, until somebody tries to change something, then they unchange it and go back to screwing around.

[ImperatorK]

It's a feature to have a 6th level NPC steal the glory from a 1st level party?

Nice try. But no. It's a feature where high level NPCs are common. And again: how is this the settings fault? Because it provides the DM with many published 6th level (and higher) NPCs that he can use to do that?
An FR NPC and a custom created NPC differ from each other only in two things - the former has pre-made statblock and fluff and is probably more known. That is all.

FR fucked this up.

Or maybe took a different route, hm?

FR high level NPCs seek to maintain the status quo. This means weaker PCs acting to change things are likely to include one of their status quo sectors in it. The NPC needs to be kept from reverting the status.

Some quotes would be appreciated. If those are just your assumptions then sorry, but it's all in the eye of the beholder. You see it like that and say that it's a flaw. I could see it differently and say that it's why FR is so great. And I do. Different gaming preferences maybe?

[Prime32]

Except that even WotC believed that being above 6th level meant you were considered a master of your class. Being above 3rd level is a miracle of luck or a testament of strategy in DnD. FR fucked this up.

This isn't even a matter of opinion. An unoptimised lv6 character breaks Olympic records, and WotC actually pointed this out once in a web article.

[Sinfire Titan]

Except that even WotC believed that being above 6th level meant you were considered a master of your class. Being above 3rd level is a miracle of luck or a testament of strategy in DnD. FR fucked this up.

This isn't even a matter of opinion. An unoptimised lv6 character breaks Olympic records, and WotC actually pointed this out once in a web article.

So yeah, there's an entire campaign setting where nearly 20% of the population has the ability to outrun Lance Armstrong. Bike or otherwise. Never mind that an apparent 50% of the population are effectively walking shotguns, thanks to so many of them being spellcasters.


And that's another thing that bugs me: I see a lot of DMs saying FR is good for Low Magic campaigns (not No Magic, Low Magic). This is Grade A Bullshit. Even in the FRCS's sample module, you have no less than 11 spellcasters in a hamlet with a population of 20.