Author Topic: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?  (Read 35865 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2011, 11:08:56 PM »
Has anyone ever tried to take out the uber NPCs prior to hitting epic (and succeeded in doing so)? I'm pretty sure that most of them are so badly optimized that it could be relatively painless to take them all out with an optimized level 20 wizard build.
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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2011, 11:18:59 PM »
Has anyone ever tried to take out the uber NPCs prior to hitting epic (and succeeded in doing so)? I'm pretty sure that most of them are so badly optimized that it could be relatively painless to take them all out with an optimized level 20 wizard build.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2011, 11:59:19 PM »
Has anyone ever tried to take out the uber NPCs prior to hitting epic (and succeeded in doing so)? I'm pretty sure that most of them are so badly optimized that it could be relatively painless to take them all out with an optimized level 20 wizard build.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2011, 12:33:55 AM »
Has anyone ever tried to take out the uber NPCs prior to hitting epic (and succeeded in doing so)? I'm pretty sure that most of them are so badly optimized that it could be relatively painless to take them all out with an optimized level 20 wizard build.
I did in 2E.  By 3E I was just so irked by them that it didn't come up. 

But, I agree w/ your assessment, they aren't terribly well-optimized.  Though at 39th or so level, they have a pretty sizable edge.  Also, it's worth taking into account the fact that their stats were produced when some powerful effects -- e.g., Celerity -- did not exist.

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2011, 03:42:33 AM »
Quote from: FRCS
Bonus Spells (Sp): A Chosen gains one bonus spell of each spell level 1st through 9th per day, which can be used as a spell-like ability. Once these nine spells are selected, they can never be changed. Most Chosen select a variety of offensive, defensive, and utility spells with this ability.
Spell Immunity (Su): Chosen are immune to one spell of each spell level 1st through 9th, just as if the spell immunity spell were constantly in effect upon them. Once these nine spells are selected, they can never be changed.
Immunities (Ex): The Chosen are immune to aging, disease, disintegration, and poison. They have no need to sleep (although they must rest normally in order to be able to prepare spells).
Detect Magic (Su): Line of sight range.
Silver Fire (Su): All Chosen can use silver fire (see Chapter 2: Magic).
Abilities: All Chosen have a +10 enhancement bonus to Consti- tution.

There's no LA listed (as it was printed prior to LA existing), no CR adjustment, no template information, the abilities are poorly written, and no way listed to become one.

The template has never been reprinted as far as I am aware.


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Vaerenth

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2011, 04:41:54 AM »
Thank you Sinfire Titan, now I don't have to do any legwork.

I guess I never have read any of the standard book fluff for 3e (or 2nd for that matter) most of my knowledge comes from books, and a few select video games that I know aren't always accurate.

Everyone also seems to forget that Elminster really should be busy with other things rather than helping you out. I've never have ran a campaign in the Realms where Elminster just showed up to help out. It wouldn't have made sense. Even if he is a Mary Sue in universe doesn't mean he has to be a Mary Sue in MY Realms.
And you're playing the setting differently than the designers envisioned it.

Maybe not playing it the way Ed envisioned it, but any other person probably wouldn't play it that way. Not in their right minds, or unless you're just looking for something ridiculous.

Ninja'ed by TML. 

You can totally Rule 0 the Realms if you want.  Hell, if I were running it I would go all Hand of Vecna and just murder all the NPCs that annoy me.  But, at the point where you find yourself removing the NPCs from the game world -- and these NPCs are the most recognizable, pervasive, and well-known element of the setting -- then you are admitting that this is a fucking problem. 

I never removed them, they just don't show up in any of the games I DM. My brother had us starting out being teleported together by Elminster, then he gave us some rings so we could find some gems important to the story, then he left. Cause you know, he's busy. He's also had Dove Falconhand help us resurrect one of us, but we were low level and desperately needed it (or that player might have just quit right there)

Has anyone ever tried to take out the uber NPCs prior to hitting epic (and succeeded in doing so)? I'm pretty sure that most of them are so badly optimized that it could be relatively painless to take them all out with an optimized level 20 wizard build.

I believe there's a thread out there with the total objective being to kill him as quickly, efficiently, and see if you can keep him dead longer than 5 minutes. Some of the initial posts were people trying to convince him that his magic is "corrupt" and unsafe to use via bluff.  :D

So it seems, ultimately, that most people conclude that its the NPCs that ruin everything in FR. How strange.
4e tried to fix this problem by toning it all down by a lot and eliminating the wild card spells that were too powerful or dynamic. The issue is no one likes to go from Phenomenal Cosmic Power to itty bitty living space. Which is exactly what 4e tried to force on people.

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2011, 06:28:35 AM »
^^
Basically, for any given business in any part of the world, theres an NPC perfectly suited to deal with it. The PCs wind up being errand boys for them for the most part. Elminister is the known, big name one, but the setting, in general, is being moved and shaken by everyone but the PCs.

Its a common syndrome with many settings really. You can TELL its the writers' personal adventuring parties being written straight into the most prominent characters. Thats how they started, as a long running campaign, and it was cool...to the original players. It's got its perks, but they are in the wealth of locations and detail that've grown over the years.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2011, 06:45:12 AM »
I find the arguments against FR presented here sooooo ridiculously stupid that I even don't know if I should laugh or cry.
I mean, okay, maybe some of them are partially true, but seriously? You complain that canon NPCs are too intrusive? Does anyone force you or your DM to include them in your games? ??? I don't get it. Just because they're there doesn't mean you HAVE to use them. The setting is big enough, not to mention that there are plenty of excuses for Elminster to not coddle 1st level PCs. Like, I don't know, HE'S GOT MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO? :rollseyes He's got countless powerful enemies that he has to keep in check. Gods even. That's why all the potential lower level adventurers even have a job. Even all those "Mary Sues" in FR can't deal with EVERYTHING.
And if you or your DM is using FR NPCs in a way that is to intrusive then... he's just a freaking retard!
Maybe it's the FR fanboi in me speaking right now, but I can't help it, I'm just pissed off. If the argument would be "FR isn't my cup of tea. Too fairytale-ish for my taste" I wouldn't have an issue because it's kinda true, but whining about too much lore (which NPCs are part of) that you don't even have to use (or buy) is just silly. It's like saying "I don't like D&D because it has too many options and handbooks". :rollseyes

(No offense to anyone.)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 06:48:03 AM by ImperatorK »
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Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

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weenog

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2011, 06:51:40 AM »
It is the FR fanboi in you ignoring the obvious to defend the object of your affection.  FR where the uber NPCs and gods aren't constantly interfering with everything and de-protagonizing the PCs would be that homebrew setting loosely based on Forgotten Realms I mentioned.  It's not FR.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2011, 06:59:42 AM »
Nah. It is the anti-fanboi in you that's just overblowing something that doesn't have to be a problem. And it's not homebrew, it's playing the game like a normal person.
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2011, 07:13:45 AM »
Quote
Does anyone force you or your DM to include them in your games?
There is a significant number of DMs who DO include them, that just about any player has either had a DM/Player who insist on their inclusion or know someone who does(granted, we're a small hobby group so crosspollination is common).

Basically, the setting as written has the problem. Games without intrusive NPCs can be great, theres a lot of detail and material available, and its one of the most familiar settings to 3E players and new players thanks to NWN, the novels and sheer age.

Partly the issue is in focusing on personal power in NPCs. Empires rise and fall because of many more factors than the epic level archmage(though he could certainly make one fall). When working out 'why is this nation still here' the answer is always the powerful NPC holding it up, rather than any inherent stability or merit. Knock off one of these, or even remove them from the scene for a while, and their regions fold like houses of cards because....the other powerful NPCs smash into the gap.
Not against STRONG NPCs, but having them at "no you aren't going to touch them" levels, with every rare and exotic spell/ability makes these abilities less interesting by contagion.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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weenog

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2011, 07:16:00 AM »
FR isn't for people that play the game like normal people.  It's for people that want to sit back and listen to the DM retell the stories of the writers' own Mary Sue characters while having no significant input themselves, but of course the overdone old characters stomp all over any story the current PCs try to make.  You can drastically modify it to make it playable, of course, but then you're not really playing FR anymore.  You're playing a homebrew that looks like FR and is based on it.

Same as you would be if you were playing an Eberron game where the gods provably and tangibly exist, and make a regular habit of swooping in to save the PCs' asses when they get in over their heads, or fucking them over when the DM thinks they're getting out of line.
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Rejakor

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2011, 07:55:54 AM »
Your DM is just using the Realms as a crutch to keep you guys alive then. I don't think anyone would honestly think it'd be fun to be saved by a random NPC wizard every other major encounter.

Everyone also seems to forget that Elminster really should be busy with other things rather than helping you out. I've never have ran a campaign in the Realms where Elminster just showed up to help out. It wouldn't have made sense. Even if he is a Mary Sue in universe doesn't mean he has to be a Mary Sue in MY Realms.

I think its odd that so many of you have experience where the DM used the Wizards in the Realms to help you guys out of situations you got yourselves into.

Also, Elminster is immune to a set of spells because he's a Chosen of Mystra, there's a template and everything.


The DM is a smart guy and a optimizer.  He just likes the realms, probably cause he played the games and read the books as a kid (yes, he did).  He's not having a wizard come along and just help us out... we saved the wizard's kid.  He owes us.  He lives on the planet.  It's actually my social LG duelist/nobleman who is responsible for him solving problems for us, although, credit to the DM, he makes us work to get to the point where we CAN contact the wizard... but seriously, this is continents being decimated as the forerunner of a god coming back to destroy the world... why exactly are all the epic level wizards (there are literally, in canon, hundreds of 20+ wizards, and the opposition is Karsus (a 20+ wizard) and possibly the city of Shade (it's all very cloak and dagger)... I mean, maybe Elminster and all the wizards are fighting this, we just don't know, but... if they're fighting this.. then we aren't the heroes.  We're just some idiots.  Who are helping out slightly maybe.

Forgotten Realms is a worldsetting, where, without major changes (completely changing geopolitical structure so it makes sense without HUR DUR 20+ WIZARD DID IT HUR, removing all said wizards, druids, clerics, removing gods who just go HUR DUR all the time), you aren't a protagonist until you are elminster.  I prefer to play my games at levels lower than 20.  I prefer to play my games without stupid bullshit handwaving crap like spellfire and the chosen of mystra i.e. 'you win forever lololololololololol barring dm fiat' template.

So, in those respects, FR is suboptimal compared to something like Eberron, where there are still movers and shakers, they're just not.. infinitely powerful and using broken rulesets and implicitly going to upstage the players if the conflict is anything more than 'random goblin attacks'.  They're also a lot more interesting, at least from my point of view, in that they have complex motivations instead of 'hur I am evul' and 'hur I am gud'.  Not that the realms doesn't have great characters, it does, it just has a lot, a lot, of sues, stus, and carbon clones, so many that the good ones get lost in the mix.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2011, 10:24:23 AM »
The real problem with the NPCs is that the setting should have gone Tippyverse way back in 3.0. The fact that they haven't is why the setting should not have them.


Just repeating myself here.


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skydragonknight

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2011, 10:50:38 AM »
I mean, maybe Elminster and all the wizards are fighting this, we just don't know, but... if they're fighting this.. then we aren't the heroes.  We're just some idiots.  Who are helping out slightly maybe.

This actually reminds me a bit of Diablo 2. The character Marius - a coward and a weakling, completely insignificant - is on the sidelines while Tyrael and Diablo duke it out. Amidst the chaos, Marius sets Baal free, an action that tips the favor towards the forces of Hell and very nearly dooms the world.

If the NPCs are used correctly - as being evenly matched - then even 'less important' characters can be the tipping point for a power shift towards good or evil. Though there being far more good high-level characters than evil in FR, such a balance would have to be manufactured as something other than "the Chosen of Mystra being unable to coordinate their schedules to get together and take out Dark Lords X, Y and Z next Tuesday".
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wotmaniac

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2011, 11:30:50 AM »
I'm not too offended by the uber-powerful NPCs -- as I have encountered them, they're pretty much there as an in-game tool for the DM to smack-down the PCs (and by extension, the players) if they get too out of hand.  Kinda like Lady of Pain in Sigil.  Depending on your outlook, it beats having the DM just go "fuck you" out of game (but YMMV).


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Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2011, 01:53:46 PM »
Do me a favor, replace Forgotten Realms w/ Star Wars and replace Elminster w/ Luke, Dove w/ Han, and so forth.

Now, come w/ me on a little thought experiment ...

Quote from: A Game I will Never Play
GM:  hey guys, I'd like to run a Star Wars campaign.  You know, fight the Empire, fly around in spaceships and stuff.  

Player:  cool!  I want to be a smuggler and fly around in a fast, agile spaceship like Han does.  Oh, and I want it to be kind of a shock b/c the thing looks like a hunk of junk, but then blam!  afterburners and stuff.

GM:  yeah, sure, you can do that.  But, I want to let you know, your ship will never be half as cool as the Millenium Falcon.

Player:  well, how do I get a ship as cool as the Falcon?  

GM:  sorry, there's no way to do so.  

You get the idea ...

That strikes me as spectacularly unfun.  Also, you guys can say we can edit out the various NPCs in the Realms.  As I've mentioned that's a very viable way to approach things.  But, it is a pretty serious revision of the setting.  If memory serves, like every nation, settlement, pile of shacks I can think of has some 20th level uberdude associated w/ it.  So, you need to come up w/ plots that continually remove them from play.  Suppose someone is laying siege to Cormyr.  Well, then doesn't the uberwhatever associated w/ that nation do anything?  It requires some serious work, and will probably eventually strain credulity.  And, I think the setting makes this harder b/c, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, there are a lot more good uberNPCs than evil ones.  And, a huge amount of the printed material involves these uberNPCs in one way or another.  

Listen, no one is contending you can't play the Realms.  And, I think everyone has acknowledged that there are nice things there.  But, the title of this thread was what we thought was wrong w/ them.  So far, the best answer has been "you can ignore a large portion of the printed material."  Sure, well ... that shows you there's a viable criticism to be made, right?  It's not impossible to work around, but it does require a workaround.

I do prefer my worlds to be a bit more open than that.  Or, more to the point, I'd rather have the world stacked w/ villains  of vast power (viz. Diablo, though it's worth noting that you don't play the worthless Marius, you play someone on par w/ Diablo himself eventually) rather than heroes, or failing that douchebags (Elminster) of great power.  And, it occurs to me now that a lot of those NPCs are probably just put in there to stop the PCs from exerting any influence or changing the world, which is disappointing.  

Arturick

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2011, 08:01:36 PM »

Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2011, 08:09:34 PM »
^Except that the guys in this supposedly ongoing world get to play by their own set of rules.  They get templates or just an ungodly number of class levels, ones you don't get access to.  Really, the whole "CR 5" comment is just dumb in light of several 30+ level guys floating around.  Hell, even TSR and WotC acknowledged this all the time -- when they crossed worlds the mighty archmages of other places (namely Dragonlance) were just outclassed by the massive awesomeness that is the Forgotten Realms wizards. 

Further, you neglected the point that "ongoing world" in this sense often amounts to "stasis," or at the very least waiting for a metaplot.  Actually, now that I think about it, the Forgotten Realms is just a lot like the White Wolf old world of darkness.

The problem is wizards.
which of course most of the Forgotten Realms NPCs are. 

P.S.:  am I wrong in thinking that there are more good NPCs in the Realms than evil ones?  That was always my problem w/ the JLA v. Legion of Doom type model w/ regards to that setting.

Arturick

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2011, 08:11:22 PM »
In any World B setting, powerful wizards are going to have their fingers in almost everything.  Why?  Because they can.  Who's going to stop them?  Is an Aristocrat 3 going to stop a Lich from teleporting into his bedroom, Dominating him, and becoming the defacto ruler?  Nope.

Now, while I'm sure many a table full of people who couldn't char-op out of a paper bag are thrilled at the idea that the party wizard (who took a few levels of monk, an LA +2 race, and some non-full caster progression PrCs) will be, at the end of the campaign, the most powerful being in the world.

Personally, I don't like the idea that the Desert of Dust, the Forest of Trees, the Cavern of Darkness, the Tundra of Iciness, and, finally, the Outer Plane of Otherness are all about to crap out challenges of appropriate level, not seen since the days of yore, in exactly the right order, starting exactly on the date that four guys living in the only Named Kingdom are all finally old enough to drink at the Tavern of Quest Starting.