Author Topic: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?  (Read 24384 times)

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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #220 on: August 27, 2011, 05:46:15 PM »
Those descriptions are based primarily on novels. In novels they are kinda like Justice League, because that's what those novels are about. When a novel has Elminster in the title, as the protagonist, it's kinda expected that he is the hero, no? But a game isn't a novel. What does it have to do with your game in FR, besides providing lore on the world and it's inhabitants?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 05:49:09 PM by ImperatorK »
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Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #221 on: August 27, 2011, 06:11:32 PM »
Ummm ... those are from the Epic Level Handbook.  A game book.  If the D&D game designers chose to use novel descriptions for their source material, something that I don't know one way or the other, those descriptions have certainly made their way into the description of those characters, and by extension, Faerun. 

The contention was that this view of the NPCs in Faerun was mistaken.  There is serious textual evidence to the contrary.  Just saying you can ignore the major descriptions of the NPCs brings us back to "the DM can fix it," which I think has already been adequately discussed. 

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #222 on: August 27, 2011, 06:13:02 PM »
Those descriptions are based primarily on novels. In novels they are kinda like Justice League, because that's what those novels are about. When a novel has Elminster in the title, as the protagonist, it's kinda expected that he is the hero, no? But a game isn't a novel. What does it have to do with your game in FR, besides providing lore on the world and it's inhabitants?
It has to do with it because the ELH - not a novel - indicates that's how these particular NPCs canonically act.  In order for them to act differently, you have to ignore canon within the rulebooks themselves, not just FR's novels.  Unbeliever said that quite distinctly by his choice of source to quote.
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Maerdash

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #223 on: August 31, 2011, 10:44:17 PM »
You'll have to forgive me I stopped reading about six pages back. After six pages of the same thing over and over again.
Just a couple points to consider.
In your standard i.e. core D&D game following the rules presented on page 139 of the DMG your average large city is going to have 3 10th to 14th level wizards.
Your average metropolis is going to have four 13th to 16th level wizards. Epic? No. Powerful enough to have the same effect of "overshadowing" the party that elminster and crew have? Yes at least for the earlier levels. (Levels 1-10ish)
Are these "special" npc's? No these are generic run of the mill npcs does that make it any more/less believable that a 1st level party is being called on by the local city to deal with the goblin threat or whatever retardation is going on? No these guys could stomp all over the problem just as much as elminster can until you start talking epic.
So the argument seems to boil down to this FR is broken because elminster/random npc is Xth level and realism breaks for me because my 7th level party isnt the uber of the world. Well thats true in almost any D&D setting as long as your using the DMG. You ARE using the DMG aren't you?
You all seem to be making the argument that elminster and co. are a problem because of their level/ ability and sheer numbers.
Umm your average large city has enough high level wizards to deal with most problems by themselves without even getting the other classes out of bed.
If you as a DM or as a player have a dm who is dragging elminster into every big fight you have thats not a failing of the setting or believability thats a failing in the dm'ing of the group. Unless the group likes the elminster train.
Or its a failing of D&D in general to overshadow the party. But really thats neither here nor there.

Prime32

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #224 on: September 01, 2011, 02:37:58 AM »
You'll have to forgive me I stopped reading about six pages back. After six pages of the same thing over and over again.
Just a couple points to consider.
In your standard i.e. core D&D game following the rules presented on page 139 of the DMG your average large city is going to have 3 10th to 14th level wizards.
Your average metropolis is going to have four 13th to 16th level wizards. Epic? No. Powerful enough to have the same effect of "overshadowing" the party that elminster and crew have? Yes at least for the earlier levels. (Levels 1-10ish)
Are these "special" npc's? No these are generic run of the mill npcs does that make it any more/less believable that a 1st level party is being called on by the local city to deal with the goblin threat or whatever retardation is going on? No these guys could stomp all over the problem just as much as elminster can until you start talking epic.
So the argument seems to boil down to this FR is broken because elminster/random npc is Xth level and realism breaks for me because my 7th level party isnt the uber of the world. Well thats true in almost any D&D setting as long as your using the DMG. You ARE using the DMG aren't you?
You all seem to be making the argument that elminster and co. are a problem because of their level/ ability and sheer numbers.
Umm your average large city has enough high level wizards to deal with most problems by themselves without even getting the other classes out of bed.
If you as a DM or as a player have a dm who is dragging elminster into every big fight you have thats not a failing of the setting or believability thats a failing in the dm'ing of the group. Unless the group likes the elminster train.
Or its a failing of D&D in general to overshadow the party. But really thats neither here nor there.
I should be getting to sleep, but generic NPCs:
  • Do not possess motivations like the FR ones. Most people aren't as eager to get into a fight as adventurers, and high-level wizards are assumed to be reclusive unless stated otherwise. As mentioned earlier, the most problematic FR NPCs are the ones who act like adventurers.
  • Do not make up their own rules.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 02:41:29 AM by Prime32 »
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Maerdash

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #225 on: September 01, 2011, 04:43:46 AM »
Valid points Prime.
Though I confess to not getting the make up their own rules.
One of the make up their own rules arguments I saw earlier was elminsters spells.
All casters can research custom spells...I fail to see the problem here.
The Chosen of mystra "template" which barely deserves the name from what I saw seems to be something that would be obtained via role play rather than strict mechanics
But I am going to freely admit I dont really play in the realms and havent read to terribly much on it other than the mechanical options available in the books  ;) So I have to assume either
a) people are complaining about a wizard researching custom spells...which seems kinda silly to me or
b) people are complaining because those spells break fundamental rules of the game.
Which would annoy me to a degree too.
But, and correct me if I'm wrong, aren't spells that do something normally not allowed by the rules by their nature treated as the more specific rule in the instance they describe and thereby trump the more general rule they may be violating?

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #226 on: September 01, 2011, 08:13:38 AM »
^^
The big thing here is the motivated part. Most setting NPCs do not have a list of interests and common activities that read like a Player Character motivation list.
You can have a level 20 magic-nerd who does nothing but magical experiments in his tower, this would not cause trouble.
You can have a level 20 mage whose resume includes righting wrongs and toppling empires. This largely means your adventurers, when they get there, would find most wrongs righted and empires toppled.
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Maerdash

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #227 on: September 01, 2011, 01:34:14 PM »
Ah I see so the argument of the one side is if you/your dm isn't playing elminster and co. as interfering gits then your not playing the setting as written and are therefore playing a homebrew, albeit a possibly mild homebrew, of FR rather than the published setting.
Sorry was mildly confused over the whole thing but I think you've cleared it up nicely for me. Thanks :D

Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #228 on: September 01, 2011, 04:02:13 PM »
Ah I see so the argument of the one side is if you/your dm isn't playing elminster and co. as interfering gits then your not playing the setting as written and are therefore playing a homebrew, albeit a possibly mild homebrew, of FR rather than the published setting.
Sorry was mildly confused over the whole thing but I think you've cleared it up nicely for me. Thanks :D
The only thing I'd add is that these DMPCs that have been the focal point of criticism of FR are also among the most iconic, pervasive aspects of the setting.  They are, unless I'm mistaken, heavily referenced in the campaign books, and so on.  So, it hasn't been made easy to excise them. 

It's like trying to excise the elves from Tolkien.  Sure, you could do it, but you'd be modifying or skirting around a lot of things. 

Oh, and they're complete Mary Sues, but that's more an aesthetic criticism than anything else.