Author Topic: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?  (Read 24383 times)

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veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2011, 06:23:56 PM »
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Atropus was en route to the Realms, you'd be a real idiot to think they wouldn't care about it and try to stop it (if they have an interest in living). They would do everything in their power to stop such a threat, and steal the glory from the PCs.
Calling it now, he bites an orbital laser from the Chosen or else get in a team up with one of the evil archwizards, only for them to both backstab each other at some point.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2011, 06:40:23 PM »
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For starters, do not put words in my mouth. I never said that the NPCs will get involved in your adventure
But it sure as hell sounded like that. But maybe it was a reading-fail at my part. :p

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At least the Lolipope has a reason to not go out adventuring (3rd level with 10 Con).
And here's what you don't understand or chose not to understand: All the NPCs in FR also have reasons to not get involved in your players adventures. Did you read Tyrants posts, like, at all? He's bringing that up, using actual knowledge of the setting. Why are you so fixated on what I say when I'm apparently not articulate enough? There are other people in my camp. Weenog calls them fanbois, but you should be smart enough to understand that as fans they know about FR more then we.

I don't want this to erupt into some flame war or meat tossing, so I apologize for any snarkiness or rudeness from past and future. I'm trying hard not to get too emotional. :p
It's enough that I lost my respect for Weenog. I don't want to start not liking you, or other posters. Seriously.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:49:09 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2011, 06:50:43 PM »
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My adventures are beneath the notice of the justice league (and supermans been know to stop a bank robber or two)

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That can be happening in ANY setting, so it's not a FR specific problem. It's how D&D works. There always will be someone above you.
1st we're not talking about "any setting" were talking about FRCS. Even if that same problem exist in EVERY other setting and it doesn't seem to, when someone says "Hey, you know you have pimple", Resonding "So what! Johnny has pimples too! doesn't make you have clear skin suddenly. That what this sounds like.

2nd. Hey, quick, anybody who's are the members of the justice league in Ebberon? Who's the elminster of dark sun?  Who's the strongest statted good npc in ravenloft?

If the relevance is lost on you, then I can break that down a bit more.
Thats not to say there AREN'T problems in any other setting, just that the issue seems much less pronounced in other settings.

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My adventure's are just large enought to grap the attention of Green Latern or whoever the fuck, and I should expect some non-party interference.
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At that point you're an equal to Green Lantern and you deal with the problem TOGETHER, as allies.
... maybe. I think world ending threats come online before my pc becomes "Chosen of Mystra" powerful, but really, at that point you rely on the Dm to NOT use Hal Jordon at his fullest, or to set him up w/ the worf effect. Thats my suggestion, doesn't suggest that in any of the books that I know of so ymmv.

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Alright already. My mistake, sorry. Don't get your panties in a twist. Sheesh
Hmph. I'm gonna apologize for that. If it seeed like I rampaged there for a sec a few posts ago.
It just sounded like... "Well you're a buncha, dirty munchkins any way right? Why wouldn't ya love this? Which made me think, maybe you just didn't get it. Its not about power tripping, its about knowing all the things that make the system tick so we can help people get to play the Character they're shooting for within given parameters.
If someone wants to play and "Unarmed combatant" playing the monk, may or may not be the best option, but its nice to be able to pick from a gamut of options, to get the nuts and bolts of what you might want to play, not what wizards cobbled together. I get tired of people railing about the evils of optimization.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:58:57 PM by Midnight_v »
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weenog

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2011, 06:54:43 PM »
I can do without the respect of certain kinds of people.  I'm glad not to have it.  This is life, not a fanfic, and I am not the Mary Sue avatar of some tragically insecure little person which must be loved and celebrated by all (if they know what's good for them) in some wish fulfillment fantasy.  Unlike certain NPCs.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2011, 06:56:59 PM »
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1st we're not talking about "any setting" were talking about FRCS. Even if that same problem exist in EVERY other setting and it doesn't seem to, when someone says "Hey, you know you have pimple", Resonding "So what! Johnny has pimples too! doesn't make you have clear skin suddenly. That what this sounds like.
Actually it's more like ""Hey, you know you have a pimple?"
"So? Johnny has pimples too and you don't pester him about it."

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Thats not to say there AREN'T problems in any other setting, just that the issue seems much less pronounced in other settings.
Well, from what I see here it is insisted that there are problems only in FR, because it's so full of epic NPCs.

Quoting an ex-poster from this boards (you know who I mean): Skipping past some whining and flailing. :p
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:58:46 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2011, 07:31:30 PM »
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Well, from what I see here it is insisted that there are problems only in FR, because it's so full of epic NPCs.
At no point is this said.
It IS however said that FR has a unique case of  abundant, powerful, involved and adventurer-like NPCs, who pursue the status quo and have unique, unreplicable abilities.

Other settings do not have the flaw in this exact same way, but this is a thread about FR flaws, therefore they are brought up and highlighted. This is the unique and fatal one.

For settings with that similar flaw:
Ravenloft - You aren't supposed to win against the Dreadlords. Thankfully theres only one per domain and they can't cross over. They're missing abundance. Its a horror setting though, so I suppose thats what people sign up for to begin with.

Greyhawk - The Circle of Eight, we have their spells even now. Tenser's Transformation, Mordenkainen's Sword, Bigby's Hands, etc. They are missing involved and abundance. Most of them are cloistered in unknown locations and have a sporadic attendance.

Dragonlance - You have the gods and dragons and Raistlin. They're missing status quo. All of them seek to alter the way things are.

Planescape - All the big name cosmic beings. They differ in that they do not seek the status quo(excepting the Lady of Pain, however, shes as geographically limited as the lolipope) and while they are involved the issues they are concerned with are alien to most mortals.

Now for some non-D&D settings:
Exalted - The Incarna sit up in their palaces in Heaven, playing WoWCrack. The Deathlords are active and involved but cursed with conflicting goals from their patrons. The Yozi are locked away. They are not involved and do not seek the status quo. However, they have power way in excess.

Mage/Vampire - Where do we start? The Powers are plentiful, they are indirectly involved and they are effective Plot power.

-----
Now, as to the other flaws, they are SHARED.  Every setting has it's crazy shit(and as one of the oldest, FR has a lot of baggage). Incantatrix? Meet the Planar Shepherd. Unrealistic nations? Where do we even start pointing fingers? Most fantasy settings don't bother with actual balances of power or economy even on the vague terms.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2011, 07:35:25 PM »
So... they're not flaws, but just a part of D&D games/settings? :p
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2011, 08:04:09 PM »
Nope. They ARE flaws, because for a game setting, they hinder common modes of play. A game setting sets the player up to be able to change things, or prevent a change. Other entities changing things is fine, however, entities preventing changes in general do two things: 1) they conflict with a player's attempt to change things by changing things differently, 2) they attempt to prevent a player's change.
The former just means applying another change on top, the player's actions are altered, but not nullified, and they can try changing from a different approach, or be satisfied with the altered change. Nullified means if the NPC succeeds the PCs lose.
Next you apply NPC agent power. This magnifies the above two factors. A powerful NPC will always succeed in their attempted action. This means that the PCs actions are always altered from what they REALLY wanted, or that their actions are always nullified. The former makes things frustrating, the latter goes beyond that.

For a book setting it's the inverse, a powerful NPC character strongly identifies an area uniquely, and personalizes it so you can convey a strong sense to the reader. It takes a lot more effort to build a relate-able PLACE.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2011, 08:09:04 PM »
So... they're not flaws, but just a part of D&D games/settings? :p
No. They're flaws. The game settings posses this flaw in some way or another. Having stupid economies and ridiculous nations, are flaws.
You're too focused on winning the argument, it seems. . .
You just said, "that guy has pimples, no one gives him grief about it", well there now we're reduced to pointing out other people flaws too. yay.  :rollseyes

 Those are bad elements of any system, that fall apart when anyone really aproaches the topics with any critical thought at all. The don't have to go into detail, in fact they shouldn't trying to add detail to those structures from author to author is most of the time what jacks a setting up.
Which reminds me... I like the Tome Series for that reason, too. The fluff that comes up LIke the "Borderlands of the sahuagins" etc... is taken from the monster manual, not a list of premade npcs. Elothar not withstanding.
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Mr_Miscellany

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #209 on: August 26, 2011, 10:29:15 PM »
Hello Unbeliever,
Probably b/c it would just be rampant speculation.
There is some extant information on the design history of the 3rd Edition Realms and how it was meant to be the showcase setting for all the (new at the time) 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons game had to offer. This information also indicates that much of what the creators of 3rd Edition and a majority of gamers didn’t like about 2nd Edition could be found in the Realms, so the Realms would have to change to match 3rd Edition.

But, absent explanation it's the sort of thing that is going to cause cognitive dissonance, especially in the course of an ordinary adventure.
Thanks for clarifying. (I mean no snark by that; rather that your explanation was concise and well reasoned.)

Is there an upper limit in terms of NPC levels and quantity of NPCs where it all just becomes silly? Yes, I think there is. For 2nd Edition D&D, I think the Realms reached that level. in 3rd Edition, no, not so much. But I understand others might not feel that way.

I’ll add that in the Realms one can find many a former adventurer (as well as mercenary, soldier, etc…) who retired early and took on the roll of innkeep, barkeep or merchant. Durnan of Waterdeep who runs the Yawning Portal comes to mind.


Neither one of these things changed in 3E.  
When I write “NPCs doing things that PCs can’t,” I mean NPCs having unique access to spells that players can’t use; the same for class abilities and powers (these are general terms: my 2nd Edition rules-speak is rusty). I’m curious what your definition of that phrase would be?

For example, in 2nd Edition you had several Realms sourcebooks dealing with Elven High Magic, the Magister of Mystra, unique magic items with deep histories and various orders of spellcasters and the spells they created. These sourcebooks had copious rules to cover these subjects, but all had one thing in common: the rules they included weren’t meant for players!

You couldn’t expect to play an Elven High Mage. Good luck finding (much less crafting) any of the unique spells created by Halaster, the Simbul, et. al., because there were levels of rarity for spells in place, and don’t ever plan to become a Magister unless you want to give up your character as a NPC for the DM to play.

Not so in 3rd Edition, where all those setting tropes that skewed the rules and play balance in the NPC’s favor were cast off. Want to be an Elven High Mage? Go for it. Want to cast Simbul’s Spell Sequencer or Spell Matrix? Feel free to research it. Want to create a Crown of Thorns or Tharkosill’s Seat? Be my guest.

Feel like playing a Drow Bladesinger who secretly serves Cormyr as a Highknight? Don’t let the “expectations” of the Forgotten Realms setting stop you.

The setting had put a stranglehold on the 2nd Edition rules. 3rd Edition—at its outset at least, broke that hold. In 3rd Edition, one rules system governs PCs and NPCs.

So yes, things didn’t just change between editions with regard to what NPCs could do that PCs couldn't; they changed dramatically.

When I write that the “the preponderance of high level wizards around every corner in the Realms” has diminished, I think I should check myself, because there are still copious numbers of wizards of mid to high levels in the Realms in 3rd Edition D&D. What I should have said was that, at the outset, the creators of the 3rd Edition version of the Forgotten Realms sounded like some of the people on these forums: they recognized that having a mighty, spell-hurling mage lurking in a tower around every bend in the road was silly.

I can't find the design quote to that effect, so I hope you'll take my word.

As an aside: Haha I haven’t been to the Nifty Message Board in years! I remember when Oberoni posted his fallacy on the WotC forums. I thought it was very insightful, but limited. It worked when applied to the nuts and bolts of the rules and when you understood the intent of a given rule and its scope. However, people treated the fallacy like Wizards of the Coast treated Prestige Classes: they used it for everything. Kind of like in this thread. :P

Thanks for reading my wall of text! :)

Tyrant

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #210 on: August 26, 2011, 10:41:21 PM »
The Flaw thats being discussed really falls into one word:
Versimilitude.
There are badass powerful dudes in the world. They aren't busy doing anything but chillin' (and maybe having orgies apparently, thats for the nightmare fuel btw, greenwood), They're like the Justice League in comics.
You can go ahead and stop there. They aren't "just chilling". Neither are the Justice League for the record. Take the Simbul. She's a queen. She has a very aggressive neighbor that enjoys employing covert and overt means to assault her kingdom. She has to deal with that day in and day out. Then she has to run the kingdom, visit dignitaries, make the occasional trip to visit El, etc. They have lives. Lives filled with important tasks. They aren't just chilling waiting for the Chosen signal to go off. There are also a rather finite number of them and as far as I know none of them have displayed the ability to be in more than one place at one time. It takes a pretty monumental situation, and occasionalyl a divine decree, to get them involved. Even then, it is well within the realm of possibility for them to be combating one threat when another emerges. Their enemies aren't stupid. They wait for the right moment, like when the Chosen are distracted. Someone has to fight that other threat. If only there were some adventurers around here somewhere...

You know what breaks versimilitude? Behaving like every potential enemy behaves like comic book villains biding their time until their issue comes up instead of attacking while the hero is busy fighting another enemy, or two, or three. Unless of course someone thinks that's the way it works in real life.
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also the Gods are real, historically and routinely come to visit people, and/or kick ass via avatar. This is a cannon thing. . .
You're half right. It's canon that the gods have taken avatar form. It is not canon that they do so "routinely".
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Now adventuring in that world... LOGICALLY, either A. My adventures are beneath the notice of the justice league (and supermans been know to stop a bank robber or two) or B. My adventure's are just large enought to grap the attention of Green Latern or whoever the fuck, and I should expect some non-party interference.
Since you started from a false premise, your outcomes will be just as flawed. I have provided canon examples to prove my point that the Chosen do not act as the Justice League. These examples have seemingly been ignored which I take as a clear sign that there is no counter argument. 

Here's a few to consider. A) They are busy. There's more than one threat to the Realms, why wouldn't more than one make their move at the same time? B) They underestimated the potential for disaster and now you are the only one who can stop it before it's too late. They aren't omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent, despite what the claims here would have people believe. They can be deceived or make a mistake. C) The threat doesn't concern them. Their scope of interest is more narrow than people want to admit. They serve the Goddess of magic, not the cause of good. If the threat won't negatively impact weave based magic, or it's spread, they are unlikely to get involved (provided you aren't smack in the middle of one of their personal domains, obviously).

« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:10:02 AM by Tyrant »

skydragonknight

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #211 on: August 27, 2011, 02:44:48 AM »
Working for a powerful wizard doesn't sound so bad until you realize that what it takes you 2 weeks to accomplish he could have accomplished in 2 minutes (post-divinations). It's just really hard to rationalize that these guys will pay top dollar just to save a half dozen spell slots.

The other good guys I don't mind as much. Harpers are mainly mid-level guys with no earth-shattering abilities that could simply use an extra sword arm. I can respect that.

Also, reading the FR timeline is confusing. It's not very beginner-friendly at all. The few times I tried to make a FR character for a PbP I cringed from the sheer amount of information, as I had a lot to digest (almost all my FR knowledge is NWN and Baldur's Gate Regular/Dark Alliance). If you're familiar with the setting, I'm sure its great to have that much to draw on. But the flip side is that if you're not you can get lost quickly.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:47:14 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Tyrant

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #212 on: August 27, 2011, 03:55:28 AM »
Working for a powerful wizard doesn't sound so bad until you realize that what it takes you 2 weeks to accomplish he could have accomplished in 2 minutes (post-divinations). It's just really hard to rationalize that these guys will pay top dollar just to save a half dozen spell slots.
Why work for a super powerful wizard then? The Crown (pick one) always needs adventurers. Merchant companies always need people. Shadowy organzitations always need people. Etc. etc. I'm not trying to be dismissive, as I generally agree with what you are saying. I am saying there are other people with gold and tasks to be done. That is true in all settings.

As for divinations, the books are pretty clear that that is not a commonly used ability. I get that it makes sense for an optimized wizard to use divinations, but these aren't optimized wizards because they don't have copies of the rule books and know all the options.
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Also, reading the FR timeline is confusing. It's not very beginner-friendly at all. The few times I tried to make a FR character for a PbP I cringed from the sheer amount of information, as I had a lot to digest (almost all my FR knowledge is NWN and Baldur's Gate Regular/Dark Alliance). If you're familiar with the setting, I'm sure its great to have that much to draw on. But the flip side is that if you're not you can get lost quickly.
Which timeline? I'm just curious. You are probably right in it not being user friendly though.

Rejakor

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #213 on: August 27, 2011, 05:35:49 AM »
The reason I called you a troll, ImperatorK, is that even if you are simply being an irrational fanboy, there is no real difference in result between that and purposefully trolling.  You've made the same argument, with slightly different wording, each time you've been disproved (and it's up to about the 20, 25 disprovings point now) each time with exclamations of how it doesn't 'actually' prove you wrong.


As for your latest salvo.. I did read Tyrant's posts.  It was horrible.  I don't even mind meandering, but there was just so many logic cut-offs and jumps in there it made my head hurt.  Basically, it boiled down to, 'if you run certain kinds of adventures in the Realms, the epic npcs create great flavour instead of horrible adventure ruining DMPC bullshit'.  The problem with that is that cuts off, from my point of view, 75% of the adventures I would want to run.  Sure, saving your love while going after the mafia or running off some goblins bothering homesteaders or going on a mission of personal exploration or whatever are all perfectly fine adventure ideas.  But why would I run games in a setting that restricts me to those ideas under penalty of 'hey why isn't elminster helping us?'  'uh, he's busy'  'but the world is gonna explode.. what about <Insert Other FR DMPC>?'  'uh.. they're all busy...'  'for the fifth time?  jesus'....?  Why not run games in a setting where I can run both kinds of games?


This isn't even getting to the part where I think the realms has a socioeconomic structure that only makes sense because <A Wizard Did It> and where everyone is stupidly high level all the time (seriously, caravan guards level 10+).  Or the fact that i'm a firm believer in the Less Is More worldstory approach, which FR is the ultimate example of the opposite.  Those things are opinion based.  And considering how wildly, illogically, and debating-dishonestly some people have been responding to the purely fact based stuff, I dread to think what the reactions would be to those if presented as 'flaws' instead of 'wonderful features'.

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #214 on: August 27, 2011, 07:29:30 AM »
Quote
This isn't even getting to the part where I think the realms has a socioeconomic structure that only makes sense because <A Wizard Did It>
That because it is!
Theres quite a large number of cities and countries that are only viable because of the extremely badassed wizard in residence. Theres farming in monster infested regions only because they have the equivalent of an orbital laser to keep monsters off farms long enough for crops to grow.

The uncivilized areas of the world tend to do better though. They make a bit more sense because theres no wizard in residence to change that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #215 on: August 27, 2011, 09:21:03 AM »
Quote
You're half right. It's canon that the gods have taken avatar form. It is not canon that they do so "routinely"
:lol
Lol @ ur retorts.
You've obviously never read the Ervis Cale novels.
Ervis: "Mask, what are doing in this alley way?!"
Mask: "...Slumming"
Quote
Take the Simbul.
No...  :nonono
 No lets not, you're not going to be reasonable about this at all. Your retorts are at best passable...
On second thought... lets, not for you but for the rest of the people in the thread.
Quote
Take the Simbul
I have almost all the faerun books as well as a bulk of the novels. Right now I'm looking in the Unapproachable east now... Tyrant says.
Quote
Take the Simbul. She's a queen. She has a very aggressive neighbor that enjoys employing covert and overt means to assault her kingdom. She has to deal with that day in and day out
Either Tyrant is lying or doesn't know what he's talking bout. You decide. Here's what the cannon says.

UE pg 103 last paragraph on the page. "Given her (the Simbul) penchant for disappering for months on end"
UE pg 111, under a paragraph entitled "the Simbuls palace" it states: The Simbul though is often NOT here, her steward (Ranger 6/Pally 16) rules over the council in her stead under the command of 1 of her 4 apprentices. Apprentices: (sor16/wiz 8); (sor14/rogue9); (sor12/wiz6); (sor 11/wiz 5)... the high commander (Ftr4/Rog 6/Aglarond griffin fucker 8) assists the steward in his duties.
So no... the simbul isn't dealing with the day in day out of jack shit, good sirs.

I got deja vu writing this. I dont' know if I've looked that up before or not...
Though I will say this...

The one change about 4th edition that pleased me was that CANNOCIALLY BLEW UP, this sub-bar fanboi beloved setting. So I guess I can take that small measure of appeasment out of all this bickering.
Hey... want me to go see what the other 7 sister's are doing/NOT doing? I can!  ;)
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #216 on: August 27, 2011, 12:40:01 PM »
@ Rejakor
Yeah, okay. I understand. I was failing at argumentation. Give me a slack, man, I'm nowhere near your level. ;)

Quote
You've obviously never read the Ervis Cale novels.
Ervis: "Mask, what are doing in this alley way?!"
Mask: "...Slumming"
It's a novel. What goes on in novels are special occasions. It doesn't happen on a regular basis like you're claiming it to be. and also Erevis is a Chosen of Mask. It's not unreasonable that he would show himself before him, especially if Erevis was doing something important (you know, like trying to restore his gods power?).
There is that thing with Mask. There was also the Time of Troubles where all gods HAD to become avatars, because AO was pissed at them.
Is there more?

Quote
Either Tyrant is lying or doesn't know what he's talking bout. You decide. Here's what the cannon says.

UE pg 103 last paragraph on the page. "Given her (the Simbul) penchant for disappering for months on end"
It's just one example that Tyrant gave. What about the others?
And this shows that the canon itself provides "excuses" for the NPCs to not screw with PCs adventures. You want to do an epic game where you are saving Aglarond from Thayan invasion? Simbul's no there right now. Who will save Aglarond? Note how all the aglarondan NPCs are epic but WAY weaker then the rulers and strongest forces of Thay. normally Simbul would deal with them, but when she's not there it can be your players job.
And WHAT mysterious things is she doing? Who knows. Missions from Mystra probably or some other Chosen business.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:24:43 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #217 on: August 27, 2011, 12:46:21 PM »
I'd like to see a party deal with something her epic spellcasting apprentices can't.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #218 on: August 27, 2011, 12:47:21 PM »
I'd like to see a party deal with something her epic spellcasting apprentices can't.
I said it under assumption that the players are epic too. -_-

And BTW. Either Simbul is busy with running her realm or with some mysterious missions, it's still the same thing: She isn't there to overshadow the PCs. And that concerns most if not all the other "meddling" NPCs.

Thanks Midnight, you unknowingly provided an argument for our side. :D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 12:55:42 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #219 on: August 27, 2011, 05:35:11 PM »
@Justice League
First, it's not just the Chosen of Mystra.  They are simply a lightning rod for criticism.  There are lots of these powerful, invested NPCs who have abilities outside the reach of PCs (high levels, unique abilities, artifacts, etc.).    This includes epic levels, as well.  Saying that you could have the same abilities as Elminster if you, too, were 36th level is operationally equivalent, in over 90% of cases, as saying you can't have those abilities.

Second, I'm not an "expert" about the Forgotten Realms.  But, I think I could be forgiven in thinking that, as far as 3rd Edition D&D is concerned, they really ARE the Justice League:  

While in the ELH it says that "in his advanced age he now prefers to work through younger and more vigorous heroes rather than moving directly against his foes."  It also states:  

Quote from: The Epic Level Handbook
During the Time of Troubles, he saved Toril ...
Elminster ... delights in acts of whimsy, helping the needy and lovelorn, and dispensing poetic justice to those who deserve it.  He has a heart of gold, and a deep need to bring tyrannical, pompous, and cruel persons low ... nothing awes him or leaves him much afraid.

The emphasized passages read very much like a hero's job description.  The other stuff is just kind of fanboyish Mary Sue stuff.  Indeed, if you deleted "Elminster" from his entire description in ELH and replaced it w/ "Alan Scott" (the original Green Lantern, now an active elder statesman hero in the DC Universe), one would be hard-pressed to tell the difference.  Probably the same thing could be said about Martian Manhunter, both major, active members of the Justice League, though Scott's adventures have mostly been part of the Justice Society of American in recent years.

But, Elminster is actually kind of a bad example.  Let's take Storm Silverhand, 32nd level Chosen of Mystra:

Quote from: The Epic Level Handbook
The famous Bard of Shadowdale [note:  what?  They both live in Shadowdale?  Damn, that is one safe Dale ...] ... spends much time ... protecting Shadowdale against its foes ... Storm's grim, get-even temper leads her to arrange 'poetic justice' [note:  does Mystra choose her people just based on their ability to use irony?] for swindlers, thieves, arsonists and vandals, and tyrants -- and she'll combat such foes w/ no through for her personal safety ... She's also a personal favorite of the goddess Mystra, who several times whisked her away from certain death.

Again, I think a reader could be forgiven for the thought that Storm really was a hero.  I mean, she really does read like one, right?  Now, maybe the Realms writers walk all this back somewhere.  I don't know.  But, they really do sound like a bunch of meddlesome do-gooding DMPCs.  Storm even has explicit plot protection, which is pretty funny for a high-level NPC w/ the Chosen of Mystra template, and whose best friends are the most powerful mages in Toril.  

Further, you'll notice a lack of any of the descriptions of the Chosen of Mystra being withdrawn from the world (all there is one sentence to that effect in Elminster's description), nor is there any mention of them safeguarding magic, or anything to that effect.  Indeed, Khelben is a "grim, inflexible proponent of law and order."  Alustriel is moved to action by injustice and intolerance.  The closest would seem to be the Symbul, who is concerned w/ mastering magic and single-handedly destroying armies, which puts your successes in perspective.  Furthermore, it explicitly states that "It's seemingly impossible to ... overload [Alustriel's] concentration on multiple matters at once ... Her wits and experience enable her to better anticipate future events in the North than almost anyone else in Faerun."  So, it might take a big excuse to move this CR 28 spellcaster off the board if you were tromping around the North.  Or, the event is beneath her notice.  

Maybe there's some passage to the opposite somewhere, but in this place where they collected a lot of these NPCs, though not all of them, in one place they really read like the Justice League.  Or, at least, that impression is certainly not obviously wrong in any regard.  And, I'd beg people to stop acting like only a moron could read them that way.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 05:38:26 PM by Unbeliever »