Author Topic: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?  (Read 24416 times)

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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #140 on: August 25, 2011, 04:26:16 PM »
No, I didn't say "ignore the rest". I said "don't concern yourself with things that don't concern your game".
The point everyone has been getting at is there is nothing that doesn't "concern" the major NPCs. They are portrayed as having their fingers in literally everything.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #141 on: August 25, 2011, 04:45:16 PM »
Sorry, I see nothing like that, but I can understand that other people can have such impression. Whatever.

One last question:
Quote
So yeah, there's an entire campaign setting where nearly 20% of the population has the ability to outrun Lance Armstrong. Bike or otherwise. Never mind that an apparent 50% of the population are effectively walking shotguns, thanks to so many of them being spellcasters.
HOW is this a flaw? I seriously understand that you can not like what I consider cool, but how exactly is this a flaw, and not, I don't know, maybe just a different style of play (more high-heroic/high-fantasy/high-magic/high-whatever one)?

You can't possibly expect me (or any other fan) to sit quiet when you call what I like a flawed product? Because like I already said, I too can point out flaws in other settings, but I won't actually do it, because I don't consider them flawed, just different and not in my taste.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 04:49:27 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #142 on: August 25, 2011, 04:53:28 PM »
Sorry, I see nothing like that, but I can understand that other people can have such impression. Whatever.

One last question:
Quote
So yeah, there's an entire campaign setting where nearly 20% of the population has the ability to outrun Lance Armstrong. Bike or otherwise. Never mind that an apparent 50% of the population are effectively walking shotguns, thanks to so many of them being spellcasters.
HOW is this a flaw? I seriously understand that you can not like what I consider cool, but how exactly is this a flaw, and not, I don't know, maybe just a different style of play (more high-heroic/high-fantasy/high-magic/high-whatever one)?
That one really isn't a 'flaw' it is just the default for a really high powered setting, which some people don't like. The players just need to realize this and plan accordingly.

As to the mechanics of it all. Take a look at all the TO builds and just plain silly broken stuff. For the most part FR has more of the key pieces than any other setting, core has a lot as well but that is more of a system flaw than anything to do with any setting. A lot of the stupid broken shit is directly from them trying to explain how all the Mary Sue's can do what they do.

FR is a very high powered setting overall but there are huge leaps in power as well. So the DM and players need to know this and build their game in such a way to avoid trouble.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #143 on: August 25, 2011, 05:13:22 PM »
Then what is the flaw exactly?
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #144 on: August 25, 2011, 05:18:53 PM »
Then what is the flaw exactly?
The flaw I was pointing out concerning the mechanics is that FR turns Tier 1s to Tier 0s. They started making mechanics to explain events from novels those mechanics now either have to be limited to certain characters, the Mary Sues, or they break down the game system. It is something that can be worked around if the players and DM see it for what it is, but as we all know that normally isn't the case.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #145 on: August 25, 2011, 05:22:02 PM »
Then that's your point. Okay. That can I agree on. They created lots of broken or semi-broken stuff.
But until now the arguments where about FR as a SETTING, iirc.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #146 on: August 25, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »
Then that's your point. Okay. That can I agree on. They created lots of broken or semi-broken stuff.
But until now the arguments where about FR as a SETTING, iirc.
That is my point concerning the mechanics coming from FR. I believe that I have already sufficiently explained my stance on the setting itself, before that.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2011, 05:28:56 PM »
And I don't agree with that, but who am I to tell you what to think?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 05:31:16 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »
And I don't agree with that.
You don't have to. The question was about why people here don't like the setting. For me it is too high powered and there are far too many NPCs with outrageous powers that will by default meddle in whatever we are doing. You don't see it that way which is fine, but it doesn't make it so I have to like the setting.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2011, 05:36:35 PM »
And I'm not forcing you. I'm just saying that this isn't a flaw. Something I don't like =/= Flaw. I'm calling it a feature. Or trait.

Quote
by default meddle in whatever we are doing
And with that I don't agree very much, but mainly because I just didn't see such a thing, but maybe I didn't read the right books.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 05:42:29 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2011, 05:49:05 PM »
And I'm not forcing you. I'm just saying that this isn't a flaw. Something I don't like =/= Flaw. I'm calling it a feature. Or trait.
Yeah, except you've actually failed to articulate that at all, too.  You haven't said "the Chosen of Mystra add something to my adventures."  Or, "I'm so happy I got to include them in this campaign/adventure that I was running or playing in."  You've actually whinged at great length how only a crap DM would include them, how easy it is to dodge them, make excuses for them to be somewhere else, etc.  As I've noted before, that doesn't prove that it's much of a feature, just, at best, a flaw that is easily avoided. 

You're welcome to say "I just like Faerun."  You can even say "I like Faerun enough to put up w/ its warts and deal w/ them."  But, over 8 pages of posts you've attempted to construct an argument, and that argument is subject to criticism.  Also, I happen to be one of those people who believes in literary, film, and aesthetic criticism, so I think one can have intelligible arguments about these things. 

None of my complaints hinge, inherently, on the setting being high-powered.  I'd say that Planescape, and arguably Dark Sun, are both high-powered settings that I do not have the same problem.  The problems is the meddlesome NPCs.  And, that far apart from being, high-powered, they cheat (have their own special rules) and are so ridiculously high level and high-powered that even a so-called "high-powered" game will be ridiculously outmatched.  A while ago I played in a game I think anyone would call high-powered:  it was 16th level, free ECL 2 (or lots of gear instead), and high levels of wealth.  I was playing a Zhentarim Skymage/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (!!), and there's no way, outside of shenanigans (that any of the FR NPCs should have access to anyway) that such a character could begin to approach the power of an Elminster, Symbul, etc. 

kevin_video

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2011, 05:55:43 PM »
Quote
Do we need to get Kevin_video in this thread? Because I will get him if needed. And he will prove you wrong on that.
Why not. I'd very much like to hear some stories of a 10 year old DM.
Maybe a DM with 10 years of experience. I'm definitely no 10 year old. However, there are DM's much older than I who've basically got the mindset of a 10 year old.

And yes, I'm here in this thread now. I was summoned.

I've never really had a problem with FR mostly because I tended to keep with in the earlier years, and have events happen as time dictated. That made things a little bit easier. Not to mention the fact that WotC was nice enough to update the later monster manuals and add in "If you're Eberron" or "If you're in the Forgotten Realms" then these creatures were created by X and do Y things accordingly. I liked that. Made things easier.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2011, 06:19:23 PM »
@ Unbeliever
*sigh* Do I really have to point out that I'm a fan of the setting and like it in every post that I make, or are you gonna ignore that too?
If my biggest argument in favor of FR would be "I like it" then I most probably would be ridiculed for bringing my preferences into a discussion. You give arguments, so I too give arguments. They don't convince you to start liking FR? Good, because that's not my objective.
8 pages? ??? I've joined the discussion much later. Was it 5th? 6th maybe. on 3rd page.

If I'm not articulate enough then maybe someone else will be:
Quote from: Tyrant
I don't play the RPG (though I do read the books and play some of the video games) so my opinion is as an outside observer. Having said that, I think that message board is a combination of A) People who have never actually palyed a Realms campaign and are simply repeating "problems" they have heard in the past, B) People who have played a Realms campaign with a very crappy DM, C) People who think every campaign must be about saving the world, and D) People who think every universe with high level characters has to go Tippyverse or it doesn't make sense. The NPCs are only a problem if you let them be a problem. Want to fight some high level folks yourself? Jump in during the Thayan civil war, the Chosen took absolutely no role in that. Fight Thay while all the Chosen are occupied dealing with Shade. Fight powerful folks in the regions that aren't inhabited by the Chosen. Have the Chosen leave to deal with another problem (it happens).

The FR is a high powered setting. These people have contradictory arguments. They say it should've gone Tippyverse because of all the magic, then on the other hand complain about all the focus on magic and unique spells in a setting that has had stable civilizations going back hundreds, if not thousands, of years. You can't have it both ways. Either there should be lots of magic or there shouldn't be. It's like saying a light should somehow both be brighter and dimmer at the same time. They can't grasp the idea that in anything resembling a real world setting (I.E. real people, not characters in a game) you simply won't have many, if any, optimized spellcasters. People don't just "know" new spells when they "level". They have to learn them somewhere. In the FR, spellcasting traditions in every region don't have access to every single spell ever created. Want to know about portals and the like, better get to digging up some old Imaskari ruins and try to read their dead language. Something not seen since the days of Nethril? Hope you like dungeon delving or dealing with Shade. And so on and so on.

On the upside, I think we have now found where WotC got the impression everyone hated the Chosen League of Faerun.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:31:24 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2011, 07:28:58 PM »
If you're going to make arguments, then you have to deal w/ the consequences if they are bad arguments.  The setting has a bug.  It's a bug you can work around perhaps.  But, it's a bug.  Don't claim it's a feature.  Doing so means that you are trying to convince us that our judgment is mistaken.  Should I be discounting everything you say as rampant fanboyism?  Is that the preferred response? 

Tyrant's are also not particularly compelling: 
Quote from: Tyrant
...
The NPCs are only a problem if you let them be a problem. Want to fight some high level folks yourself? Jump in during the Thayan civil war, the Chosen took absolutely no role in that. Fight Thay while all the Chosen are occupied dealing with Shade. Fight powerful folks in the regions that aren't inhabited by the Chosen. Have the Chosen leave to deal with another problem (it happens).
...

This is well-traveled territory on this thread already.  That the setting has a defect that can be worked around begs the question:  how much better would the setting be if it didn't have these NPCs?  Or, I think a better approach, would be to have these NPCs structured far differently.  Perhaps it'd be nice and dramatic if the Symbul died and you had to decide how to deal w/ the fallout.  It's just that strikes anyone intimately familiar w/ the setting as so ludicrously unlikely, or to be the product of enemies of such unimaginable power, that it would require a lot of tapdancing to work it into the campaign.  This is part of FR's status quo bias. 

Quote from: Tyrant
They can't grasp the idea that in anything resembling a real world setting (I.E. real people, not characters in a game) you simply won't have many, if any, optimized spellcasters. People don't just "know" new spells when they "level". They have to learn them somewhere. In the FR, spellcasting traditions in every region don't have access to every single spell ever created. Want to know about portals and the like, better get to digging up some old Imaskari ruins and try to read their dead language. Something not seen since the days of Nethril? Hope you like dungeon delving or dealing with Shade. And so on and so on.
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.  So ... there shouldn't be lots of high-level spellcasters w/ access to a vast amount (wide variety, etc.) of spells in FR?  I can get behind that, but it's like ... y'know ... the opposite of the setting materials.  I think there are more archmages in Waterdeep than there are in all of Krynn.  And, many of them (anyone whose name I know) have access to unique abilities, custom spells, and artifacts. 

Quote from: Tyrant
On the upside, I think we have now found where WotC got the impression everyone hated the Chosen League of Faerun.
In the tabletop RPG community, at least, I don't think this is an "impression."  I think this is an accurate assessment of the community's opinion.  I have played D&D fairly regularly for the past 20 years w/ dozens of different people.  I can only recall one of them really liking FR as a campaign setting, and I can recall no one being particularly enamored w/ their high-level NPCs, w/ the possible exception of the Drow who Shall not be Named and Artemis Entreri. 

ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2011, 07:43:49 PM »
Quote
If you're going to make arguments, then you have to deal w/ the consequences if they are bad arguments.
Nah, I'm quite proud of my arguments.

Quote
The setting has a bug.  It's a bug you can work around perhaps.  But, it's a bug.
If it's a bug, then it's an universal bug that concerns all settings, not FR exclusively. So it's not FRs flaw. Or will you tell me that in FR it's a flaw, but in Eberron it's completely normal? Because the opposite can be said about Eberron. It's low-powerness is a flaw, because I don't like it.
In this case let me rephrase my statement: It's a feature/trait of EVERY setting and FR is the most (or the only one) frowned upon just because it's the most prominent setting. Most of the "problems" that you guys point out are present in any other setting. You just ignore that because it isn't published in dozen of handbooks and hundreds of novels.

Here the post that sparked my change of statement. It's mostly agreeing with you, but brings up a couple of fine points that are in my favor.
Quote from: Arik
I'm impressed with the site. Mostly because I'm actually pretty surprised that the arguments there are (initially) fairly cogent and insightful, and generally manage to stay on track as far as the last page. Hell hath no fury like a group of passionately disgruntled nerds.

I also notice that (aside from a few troublemaking naysayers) the consensus agrees that the Realms are broken. The game designers are vehemently condemned, as are the authors (most especially Greenwood and RAS), and legions of fans who worship and repeatedly emulate Elminster and Drizzt, and gnarled old grognards who know every canon detail about the setting with sickening precision, and powergamers, and power creep, and Hollywood and modern society in general. WotC earns no love for nuking the Realms, and that forum happily continues to choke on fallout from the event.

Yet surprisingly hardly anybody even mentions the DM. The blame for the broken setting is squarely placed everywhere else even while stating that legions of tippyverse NPCs are somehow thwarting, micromanaging, and trivializing the PCs on a constant basis. My experience - from playing on both sides of the table, in multiple settings, in sessions that have ranged from perfect to abysmal - is that ultimately the DM is the cornerstone of every setting. The man standing behind the curtain is to blame, not the monkeys and witches and yellow brick road.

Gaming can run flawlessly in the Realms setting for years. Gaming can grind to a halt in any setting, Realms or non-Realms. So obviously the setting itself (which is indeed full of flaws, like any other setting, like our own world) is not at all broken to the point of being rendered unplayable. Every gaming table is a unique setting in itself and every DM worth his dice crafts house rules, so if the setting remains broken it's evident that the DM hasn't done his job.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 07:57:38 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Vaerenth

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2011, 07:52:32 PM »
Okay so what I've seen so far is that it is the opinion of this thread that some of you don't like FR because:

a) It's a very high powered setting.

b) NPCs that you have to make excuses for not helping PCs. It's seemingly very hard for an NPC to be killed or there's too great a consequence for killing them.

c) NPCs have lots of abilities, spells, or artifacts unique to them. I can't actually remember too many PCs with unique spells, most of their named spells are in the books. Artifacts: I also can't remember very many NPCs with artifacts. Elminster himself I don't even think has an artifact on his person. He's even lost that intelligent pipe that shoots lightning bolts recently (its not an artifact).
Anyways...

d) There's some overpowered things that come from FR. I'd say that pretty much any setting has its share of OPness coming from it but it has been mentioned so it stays.

Thank you for your input. Did I miss anything?
This is the boards overall opinion on FR.
4e tried to fix this problem by toning it all down by a lot and eliminating the wild card spells that were too powerful or dynamic. The issue is no one likes to go from Phenomenal Cosmic Power to itty bitty living space. Which is exactly what 4e tried to force on people.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2011, 07:58:00 PM »
I don't like Eberron. Too much Sci in my Fi. Also it's too low-heroic (or whatever is the proper term). I want to play higher levels without being the worlds strongest. I can't even use the things that the setting provides. I can't make the dragons step up and invade the rest of the world. It would break the established canon. Etc.

Funny that, because a 17th level Wizard is actually very capable of killing Elminster due to how unoptimized he is. All it takes is some preparation and you've got him dead to rights.

Quote
Do I really have to point out that I'm a fan of the setting and like it in every post that I make, or are you gonna ignore that too?
If my biggest argument in favor of FR would be "I like it" then I most probably would be ridiculed for bringing my preferences into a discussion. You give arguments, so I too give arguments. They don't convince you to start liking FR? Good, because that's not my objective.
8 pages? ??? I've joined the discussion much later. Was it 5th? 6th maybe. on 3rd page.

Yes, we get that you like it. The problem is you aren't defending one of the points we keep attacking. You are defending the Realms in general, but you do so by saying to ignore the NPCs that are the default of the setting. That isn't defending the NPCs, that's helping our point!




The main problem is this: You cannot run a "Save the world" plot in FR because the Epic NPCs would have a reason to step in. They literally have nothing to do that's more important than this. Any plot of that scale cannot be used because of these NPCs. And if a plot is smaller than that, then you still have to look into the NPC's sphere of influence. I know there's at least one NPC who is concerned about the Red Wizards of Thay, so using the Red Wizards of Thay as a primary enemy for even a moderate plot means that the NPC has a reason to intervene.


Ignoring the NPCs in those cases means you are not using the realms properly. Those NPCs have the resources available to stop what they are doing and help someone, even during a "Save the world" plot that they may be dealing with. All they need is to hear about it.



Quote
It's low-powerness is a flaw, because I don't like it.

If there is one thing Eberron is not, it's Low Powered. You merely don't have high level NPCs everywhere, and the PCs have the options of supplanting the ones that do exist because they aren't literally keeping the setting from crashing and burning.

Eberron: Congratulations, you just killed three of the Lords of Dusk! You are officially the most powerful characters in the Demonwastes! Probably the rest of Khorvaire to. Wanna go to Argonesse and fuck with the dragons? Sure, let's do that.

Faerun: Congratulations, you just stopped a Mind Flayer slave trade ring. While you were doing that, Elminster banged Mystra (again), teleported home, made a dozen magic items none of you will ever get, and saved the entire planet (again). Have fun being inferior to the NPCs!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:04:31 PM by Sinfire Titan »


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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2011, 08:03:40 PM »
Yeah I think you pretty much have the gist of it.

I'll put it like this ImperatorK the only times I've ever enjoyed playing in FR was: Baldur's gate, some of Neverwinter Nights, and one time the DM went nuts letting me play something that was off the charts powerful but still couldn't compare to the setting natives (half dragon spellfire wielding cleric with no LA applied). The first 2 were fun because they ignored most of the major NPCs and told a good story with my character actually being important to that story. The last was fun because I wasn't outclassed by every merchant in every town because that is how they wrote them up in the modules/book. I never had to ask why the hell is this guy asking me to do something for him when he could do it faster and cheaper himself.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2011, 08:12:51 PM »
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Funny that, because a 17th level Wizard is actually very capable of killing Elminster due to how unoptimized he is. All it takes is some preparation and you've got him dead to rights.
And yet the consensus in this thread is that NPCs overshadow the PCs or are uber-haxorz god-killing machines that can be everywhere and can and WILL solve every problem in the setting. Funny that indeed.

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You are defending the Realms in general, but you do so by saying to ignore the NPCs that are the default of the setting. That isn't defending the NPCs, that's helping our point!
That's not something I'm using as argument. That's something that isn't an issue at all. You choose to make it an issue by insisting that the NPCs WILL involve themselves in your players adventures, and that is a fact. I don't know where you get that, honestly.

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The main problem is this: You cannot run a "Save the world" plot in FR because the Epic NPCs would have a reason to step in. They literally have nothing to do that's more important than this. Any plot of that scale cannot be used because of these NPCs. And if a plot is smaller than that, then you still have to look into the NPC's sphere of influence. I know there's at least one NPC who is concerned about the Red Wizards of Thay, so using the Red Wizards of Thay as a primary enemy for even a moderate plot means that the NPC has a reason to intervene.
And again you're saying something that either isn't true or isn't an issue in the first place. Have you read that quote I posted earlier? Here the relevant part:
"The NPCs are only a problem if you let them be a problem. Want to fight some high level folks yourself? Jump in during the Thayan civil war, the Chosen took absolutely no role in that. Fight Thay while all the Chosen are occupied dealing with Shade. Fight powerful folks in the regions that aren't inhabited by the Chosen. Have the Chosen leave to deal with another problem (it happens)."
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You insist that the NPCs are everywhere. But that's not true. If you did read the novels (I unfortunately didn't have the time) you should know that they have actually their own lives, adventures, enemies and stuff to do.
If Elmo isn't saving the world in your game it's somehow an excuse, and a bad one at that. But in Eberron it's completely normal that some powerful NPC didn't do it. Jaerla is confined to her temple? Well, Elmo is confined to his other responsibilities, like watching for more greater trouble then some bandits in the east or an orc horde in the North, or doing stuff as an order from Mystra, or opposing evil Gods, etc.
If you don't like playing or never reach epic levels then don't be surprised that FR isn't good for you. That's the whole point of the setting.

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The first 2 were fun because they ignored most of the major NPCs and told a good story with my character actually being important to that story.
And what was the game about? What level?

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Eberron: Congratulations, you just killed three of the Lords of Dusk! You are officially the most powerful characters in the Demonwastes! Probably the rest of Khorvaire to. Wanna go to Argonesse and fuck with the dragons? Sure, let's do that.

Faerun: Congratulations, you just stopped a Mind Flayer slave trade ring. While you were doing that, Elminster banged Mystra (again), teleported home, made a dozen magic items none of you will ever get, and saved the entire planet (again). Have fun being inferior to the NPCs!
That's a problem with your expectations and not with the setting. You can totally do in FR what you described as doing in Eberron. You just have to play on higher levels then in Eberron.
Seriously, if you can't stand that your 20th level Wizard is just one of many, then why are you even playing FR? There's Eberron or homebrew for that. don't diss FR just because it's not your cup of tea.

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a) It's a very high powered setting.
Not a flaw. You can certainly not like it, but it's in no way a flaw.

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b) NPCs that you have to make excuses for not helping PCs. It's seemingly very hard for an NPC to be killed or there's too great a consequence for killing them.
Most of the people here could make a PC that is able to decimate any of the NPCs way before reaching epic levels. Relevant quote is relevant:
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Funny that, because a 17th level Wizard is actually very capable of killing Elminster due to how unoptimized he is. All it takes is some preparation and you've got him dead to rights.



(Clarification: I'm not directing this at anyone specific. Just talking in general, you know, to the readers.)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:40:23 PM by ImperatorK »
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why do people think that Forgotten Realms is stupid/inferior/etc?
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »
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The first 2 were fun because they ignored most of the major NPCs and told a good story with my character actually being important to that story.
And what was the game about? What level?
I assume you are talking about Baldur's gate and Neverwinter Nights. I'm talking about the old video games not a table top game. They by their nature couldn't afford to have the major NPCs there, they take up too much space  ;)

The game where I played an insanely powerful character was just about my guy being special. Since there is only supposed to be one spellfire wielder at a time, something that was dis-proven in the books apparently, and I would do jobs for hire while trying to seek out false spellfire wielders and tell them to quit giving me a bad name. It didn't go too far into the game for my character to learn what all the DM had in mind, I was later told I would end up going after the Moonfire (or whatever the version of spellfire Mystra gave out was) users.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren