Problem challenging my players

[EruditeWarApe]

I've been having a hard time challenging my players. I run a game with 6 players. They are currently level 11. I've got a 2 full casters, 3 melee fighters and an archer. It's almost impossible to put them up against a single opponent. I've tried both physical brute type opponents and full casters.

The players do like 150-200 dmg per round, and are frequently hitting every AC I throw at them. Every enemy I put in their path I have to double or triple the amount of hit points they have, load them up with feats to perform multiple actions per round, and the players still always seem to come out nearly undamaged. Minions seem to go down very quick.

I feel like I could put them up again more and more opponents, which is fine, but with 6 players, it's already hard to manage combat.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas or tips for running a solo boss encounter against a large party.

[Solo]

Split up your group into two smaller groups of 3 people each and meet on different days.

[EruditeWarApe]

Well.. we enjoy playing together!

But I suppose splitting the party into different combat scenarios, sort of Star Wars style (jumping between the different action scenes), could work.

[PhaedrusXY]

Need more info, really. Are the melee brutes uber-pouncers? Would limiting their mobility against a highly mobile opponent be a dent in their style?

What do the casters focus on? What specific kinds casters do you have?

I'd bet that a decent mixed group, like a debuff/BFC focused necromancer and a few minions could put up a decent fight, if built and played well.

[weenog]

Single opponents typically die horribly, especially against large parties, due to a major disadvantage in actions over time.  You really should try to have more enemies in encounters.  Minions may die quickly but you don't need to make an encounter one big guy and 50 inconsequential little guys.  Three or four slightly less big guys might work better for you.

You can also encourage players to waste their actions, or at least use them less efficiently.  How would their tactics and spell application change if they had to fight in the caldera of an active volcano? They'd be on or above deep liquid magma, suffering some fire damage constantly just for being there, contending with thermal updrafts of such force that the entire battlefield might essentially be covered with a constant Wind Wall effect.  What if they went up against a triumvirate of moderately powerful "boss" types, and the minions, rather than hanging around openly to get splattered, were well-hidden and confusing the issue with illusionary decoys off the real threats (hint: an illusion of an incorporeal enemy doesn't necessarily become suspect when an attack passes through it harmlessly)?  How would they function on a plane that is inhospitable to life of their type?

You might also try seeing how they handle themselves.  Try modifying a mirror of opposition so it can work against up to 6 creatures, and can do groups instead of individuals.  Slipping an activated one into the home or treasure trove of anything especially vain (red dragon's hoard, perhaps?) shouldn't arouse any suspicion until someone takes a look at it from the front.

[veekie]

For single opponents I find cranking straight CR to be detrimental actually.
The only feasible way is to at least double or triple hp, and allow it to setup the field somehow or arrange for extra actions.

[oslecamo]

The usual party is 4 member big so 6 players need challenges over the regular CR to keep going.

So check out this guide for DMs to design stronger ecounters.

[RobbyPants]

Weenog is right about the extra actions. If the PCs outnumber the monsters too badly, they'll probably win just by the extra actions alone. It's very tough to balance a solo monster encounter without having it die before it acts or be so invincible that the PCs can't hurt it. Several monsters are your friend.

Veekie makes a good point about setup as well. If the monster gets a few rounds to buff ahead of time, this can help make up for some action economy issues.

[saethone]

As someone else said the monster doesn't have to be the only thing in the encounter either. Throw in a dilemma of some sort where the bad guy has hostages and a couple party members have to rescue or something, or like they said make them contest the environment as well

[weenog]

Hostages are actually pretty easy for some casters.  Entice gift isn't just for stealing.

[SneeR]

Battle control is efficient. If you have high-strength monsters disarm or sunder the beatsticks, trip, bull rush, and grapple (especially casters), then you will artificially diengage the party from killing the creatures to dealing with the problems they present. Treating the symptoms, you might say.

Just sick low-CR, high STR monsters on them in hordes and have them abuse special attacks like no tomorrow. I think there will be interesting results.

[Nachofan99]

I don't see why you can't toss a single high level caster at them and rawk their faces right off, if you wanted to.

Yes, I understand action economy and 6 actions per round is 6x as effective as 1 action per round...but casters break the action economy and are super efficient.  You should be able to throw casters with at least 7th level spells at their faces, how isn't a buffed solo-Wizard encounter not kicking their asses with Spell Turning, Project Image, Teleport shenanigans?  (Obviously, there are MANY different kinds of shenanigans, I just pulled some core spells at the appropriate level - "Coward" Wizard should be able to wear that party down.)  That's without turning to Celerity and Familiar abuse and so on and so on.  Your high level casters should have multiple buffs that make them nigh immune to your party (for a few rounds at least) then you "divide and conquer" or "retreat and recoup." 

I am wondering how skilled you are as a DM versus how skilled your players are at min/max, because I think that is the real heart of the matter.  If your players are very good, with great and complementary builds, then ok - you need to come up with *situations* that take them down a peg.  You don't even have to use heavy handed shit like AMFs and Wild Magic or Dead Magic zones.  The lava caldera was a neat idea by Weenog, for example.  However, I think that gets to the root of the matter.  If you're just picking random monsters from the MMs and putting them up against your group of super bad-ass optimizers, then I would see the situation you are describing happening.

Honestly, I need more information to give you more specific advice.  I have DM'd for groups of 6 without issues, and I am in a play group with 6 right now; our DM also has no issues.  I can describe a bunch of stuff he's doing right now to keep it challenging at 8th level (which is close to your group's 11th).  Still, I'd like to know a little bit more about your groups tolerance towards Min/Max and your preparations vs your player's optimizations.

[veekie]

Veekie makes a good point about setup as well. If the monster gets a few rounds to buff ahead of time, this can help make up for some action economy issues.

Did that experimentally with a Transmuter's familiar once. Layered six buffs on top, then JUST the familiar alone threw down, in a favorable environment, using PF's nerfed polymorphs.

If not for some fantastic tactics on the party's side. It would have torn them a new one.

[Endarire]

When I DMed a group at L11, I frequently used lots of creatures, even casters, at a time.  One Creature = One Big Target.  Many Casters = Challenge!

Mind you, freedom of movment, death ward, and mind blank will negate lots of crowd control, but if not, bring on the stinking cloud solid fog glitterdust Evard's black tentacles spam!

[PsionicRanger]

Also, it may seem exceedingly obvious, but I'll mention it anyway in case it isn't.  As the GM, you should know the players strengths and weaknesses.  Also, you should know if they're apt to hit something with a high AC or w/ high saves or whatnot. 

Basically, throw an opponent that only the casters would be effective against or throw something only the sluggers would be effective against, this will minimize your chances of getting so much damage/round against said foe...don't forget things like Damage Reduction or Magic Immunity as strong tools against characters that are of the magnitude of the ones your players are wielding. 

Remember, it's not us vs. them, but there still needs to be some aspect of the "game" part of Role Playing Games...and the game part is a chance for failure.  Golems, Swarms, etc...provide different sorts of challenges than a standard hit, take damage encounter.

[Littha]

I suggest golems.

Party of 6 guys at level 11 should be able to handle a group of 6-8 stone golems if they are as good as you are making out. Golems are a good way to test if your players actually know what they are doing or if they got their build and all their ideas off the net.
Golems are easily defeated by illusions/flying and various other intelligent tactics but you cant just charge into a group of 6 or so especially as most battlefield control wont affect them at all.

[b100d_arrowz]

Have them fight a few squad based combats against foes of similar makeup, like a group of orc barbarians supported by a cleric or 3. Long dungeons with no chance to resupply is a personal favorite of mine, they win the encounters easily, but burn through their supplies/spells/hp at a decent rate. Make them unable to go back via simple things like dimensional lock to block teleportation and tell them they don't have focus rod for planeshift. Make the entrance they came in on blocked off by some unpleasant force, say idk magma  and tell them the only way out is to get to location X in the heart of teh dungeon. Layer with traps, ambushes, and repeat.

Throw dangerous social situations at them, dinner with generals from opposing countries for example, and they have to broker a peace agreement, all military leaders are protected from enchantment spells by their own snazzy wizards, and are better fighters then your fighters so that the players can't just say we dominate/subdue/whatever other quick bloody way they want to try it. Make them use skill rolls or something else different like that 


Or make them fighter dragons. Lots of dragons 

[weenog]

all military leaders are protected from enchantment spells by their own snazzy wizards, and are better fighters then your fighters so that the players can't just say we dominate/subdue/whatever

No, bad.  Making them well-optimized combatants is fine.  Making them higher-level combatants is also fine.  But just an arbitrary "better than you" is not okay.  If the PCs opt to force the issue, and manage to get lucky or clever enough to come up with a win, they should get it.  Otherwise, you're just railroading, and if you're going to do that there's no point not just saying "You lose because I say so, I am the DM, obey me" and you're still not challenging the players, you're just abusing Rule 0.

[Nachofan99]

all military leaders are protected from enchantment spells by their own snazzy wizards, and are better fighters then your fighters so that the players can't just say we dominate/subdue/whatever

No, bad.  Making them well-optimized combatants is fine.  Making them higher-level combatants is also fine.  But just an arbitrary "better than you" is not okay.  If the PCs opt to force the issue, and manage to get lucky or clever enough to come up with a win, they should get it.  Otherwise, you're just railroading, and if you're going to do that there's no point not just saying "You lose because I say so, I am the DM, obey me" and you're still not challenging the players, you're just abusing Rule 0.

Meh, I think you are knee-jerking too fast and too hard against a perceived "railroad" that isn't there. As a DM, I try to inform my players as best I can of a given situation - sometimes I do not do a good enough job.  If I have added in a high-stakes diplomatic meeting, and the situation is that the PCs are hopelessly outclassed if something even resembling combat happened, I don't find the need to stat out everything in advance. The PCs are going to get to RP a bit and make some Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive checks which I will have DC's for ahead of time - and that is the intention of the encounter.  Any time I waste statting out much higher NPCs could be used building a combat encounter where I actually need all the stats.  The scope of the encounter is to let some up and coming, low level PCs meet some of the more powerful NPCs in the region and take part in a non-combat encounter.  I mean can't I just say "Contact Other Planes" or any number of other magical spells without having to stat things that are not intended to be encounters?

If a group of level 2 adventurers hear tales about an incredibly ancient and powerful red dragon up in a particular mountain range, and all the villagers tell them not to go there because no one that goes there ever returns, I do not feel obligated to stat out a great wyrm red dragon just to feel good about myself for killing them if they INSIST they must go investigate.  "Rocks fall, everyone dies" and "You see a great wyrm red dragon, roll initiative.  Ok, nothing you do has any appreciable effect, including running away. Everyone make a reflex save; everyone dies" *TO ME* these are exactly the same situation even if they are dressed up a little bit differently.

[weenog]

The difference is that there is no chance to avoid the DM murdering you off with rocks fall, everyone dies.  You're just a spectator at that point, and that's not a position the PCs should be put into.  At least with the dragon freaking out it's theoretically possible (though incredibly unlikely, I'll grant you that) that the PCs find some way to survive the situation and perhaps even turn it around, and even if they don't they participated in their own demise.

You might not see a difference between a hopeless situation where the odds are terrible, and a hopeless situation where the DM just thinks he's a Big Man, but I do, and the latter shouldn't ever come up.