The Colossal Crasher Build

[Cazador75]

Well, after reading the Fighter Alternative Class Feature: Dungeon Crasher from Dungeonscape, and more specifically the 8d6+(3xStrMod) Bull Rush, one idea crossed my mind through Complete Arcane to the Wu jen and the Giant Size spell  ... so I started to think, Giant Size is a level 7 spell, that's level 13 Wu jen, and Dungeon Crasher is Fighter level 6, so it IS possible, and after some time reading through handbooks I came with this build, I'd like to listen some opinions and improvements if possible  , it's not completly finished yet.

Race
Illumian -> For Naenhoon Illumian Word (apply metamagic feats in exchange for turn attemps, which DOES include arcane spells -> Persistent Giant Size)

Class
Fighter 6 Cleric 1 Wu jen 13 -> Fighter 6 for Dungeon Crasher, Cleric 1 for turning and Wu jen 13 for Giant Size)

Feats
1. Improved bull rush (Knockback prerrequisite)
3. Power Attack (Knockback prerrequisite)
6. Knockback (Flying foes!!   )
9. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Jovar) -> 8d6, 15-20/x2 when colossal!
12. Shock Trooper (Cool Bull Rush maneuvers)
15. Shield specialization (Tower)
18. Improved Critical (Jovar) -> Read 9.*
1Fighter. Heavy Armor Optimization (I'll explain why I take this feat in the Equipment section)
2Fighter-> Dungeon Crasher
4Fighter. Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (Read above)
6Fighter-> Dungeon Crasher
1Wu jen. Persistent Spell (Giant Size for 24h  )

Domains
Planning -> Extend Spell (Prerrequisite for Persistent Spell)
Transformation -> +1CL for transmutation spells (I need a total of +6 CL, colossal is CL19, 13+1Domain+1Symbol+4Bead)

Ability Scores (assuming 38 point buy)
Str 66 (18 +5increments +5manual +6belt +32colossal)
Con 40 (17 +4tome +6belt +12colossal)
Dex 18 (14 +6belt -2colossal)
Int 17 (11 +6belt) -> I need 17 to cast Giant Size...
Wis 14 (8 +6belt)
Cha 14 (8 +6belt)

AC
54 (10 +16armor +10shield +4dex -8size +17natural +5deflection)

Saves
Fort +31 (11classes +15con +5cloak)
Ref +15 (6classes +4dex +5cloak)
Will +19 (12classes +2wis +5cloak)

Melee Attack
+31/+26/+21 (+12/+7/+2bab +28str -8size -2shield +1masterwork), 8d6+42, 15-20/x2

Bull Rush
+48 (+28str +16size +4improved), damage 8d6+84 if it hit's something or trip attemp if it hits someone.

Equipment (760000gp)
Manual +5 str 137500
Manual +5 con 137500
Belt +6 everything 200000
Ring +5 deflection ac 50000
Amulet +5 natural ac 50000
Animated mithril tower shield +5 50075 (for max dex 4 and two handed weapon)
Nimbleness mithril battle plate +5 47500 (no proficient means that the check penalty applys to attack, if check penalty = 0 then I need not proficency -> base penalty is -6, mithril +3, greater heavy armor optimization +2, nimbleness +2 = 0, also, max dex 4)
Cloak +5 saves 25000
Bead of karma (+4CL 10min/day) 20000
Nightstick (+4 turns attemps/day, got 5 (3+2cha) need at least 6 for persistent, can cast max 2/day) x2 15000
Vanguard of Kord (+1CL for transmutation spells) 350
Masterwork Jovar (probably with some magic enhancements, I haven't decided yet) 800

Total: 733725gp, left: 26275gp


I think that's all the relevant information, this results in a Colossal guy with AC 54, with an average 374hp, who can hit 3 attacks per round, each attack can result in a bull rush attemp so in the best possible situation in one turn he can do at max (with max power attack and criticals):
(Attack: 16d6+132 + Bull Rush: 8d6+156) x 3 = (96+132+48+156) x 3 = 432 x 3 = 1296 of hp damage each round for an unlimited number of rounds (assuming no AoOs, and maybe more damage depending on the weapon enchantments), also each hit sends the enemy through the air with the possibility of hitting other enemies if you don't stamp them into a wall  

I have yet to polish some details but it seems pretty powerful. Any opinions or questions are welcome!

[Rebel7284]

Divine Disciple [Hero Domain] gives you giant size on pretty much any caster.

Also there was an archivist build that did this better due to having full casting.

[Mudkipz]

I do believe that Knockback has Large Size as a prerequisite, which you have no way of obtaining at that level.

[Endarire]

The feat Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) is effectively Powerful Build.

[Nachofan99]

Core: Permancied Enlarge Person effect can qualify Knockback by 6th. I think it's fairly inexpensive but I'm tired and my maths are not working at the moment.

[PhaedrusXY]

Core: Permancied Enlarge Person effect can qualify Knockback by 6th. I think it's fairly inexpensive but I'm tired and my maths are not working at the moment.

It doesn't even have to be permanent. He just wouldn't be able to use it while not Enlarged. There is a continuous ring in Savage Species IIRC, but I forget the cost (Ring of Growth?).

[Lycanthromancer]

Core: Permancied Enlarge Person effect can qualify Knockback by 6th. I think it's fairly inexpensive but I'm tired and my maths are not working at the moment.

It doesn't even have to be permanent. He just wouldn't be able to use it while not Enlarged. There is a continuous ring in Savage Species IIRC, but I forget the cost (Ring of Growth?).

There's an app for that.

Also, that sounds a bit like what I got in a spam email the other day.

[Shiki]

^That's what he said.

[Cazador75]

Divine Disciple [Hero Domain] gives you giant size on pretty much any caster.

Also there was an archivist build that did this better due to having full casting.

The Hero Domain from Oriental Adventures has Giant Size as a level 8 spell, therefore the build is invalidated as you'll need at least 15 class levels in a caster class but you need 6 fighter levels for dungeon crasher (that is what this build is about)

For this build you need at least Fighter level 6 for Dungeon Crasher and a way to become colossal, having full casting does not help. This is intended to be a melee build despite the caster class levels xD

I do believe that Knockback has Large Size as a prerequisite, which you have no way of obtaining at that level.

You can take the feat, but you cannot use it unless you meet the prerrequisites, and when colossalized, you do.

The feat Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) is effectively Powerful Build.

You need to be human to take that feat, and besides that, I don't see how yould it help, it only make you effectively "Large", not one size catotegory bigger. It would only help to meet the prerrequisites of Jotunbrud, but as said, this is unnecesary.

Core: Permancied Enlarge Person effect can qualify Knockback by 6th. I think it's fairly inexpensive but I'm tired and my maths are not working at the moment.

It doesn't even have to be permanent. He just wouldn't be able to use it while not Enlarged. There is a continuous ring in Savage Species IIRC, but I forget the cost (Ring of Growth?).

Yes, I though about the permanent enlarge, but as PhaedrusXY said, there isn't even need for that.

And, yes, the Ring of Growth makes you grow one size category for 9 minutes once a day, so it won't be really useful, as after being colossal you cannot be bigger (or can you?) and 9 minutes wont last long enough compared to the persistent giant size.

[Havok4]

What could work for this character is the divine crusader class from CD, you get fast casting progression from the hero domain. That would cut down the needed casting levels to 8 or 9 depending on your CHA. You could also take a good melee focused divine PRC to progress the divine crusader casting. What might work is the following build.


Fighter 6/Full BaB Class 1/ Divine Crusader (War Domain )1/ Ordained Champion 1 (pick up hero domain with this)/ knight of the raven 10 (From Expedition to castle ravenloft)/ Ordained Champion 4 /whatever 2

You get casting from the War, Hero And Sun domains, +19 BAB or so you might lose some with the last 2 levels that are open, 9th level spells including shapechange, various useful melee abilities
To get the caster level up to 19 you can use practiced spellcaster combined with prayer beads of karma to pick up a cl of 22. Also note that for your original build the prayer beads would not work as they need divine spells and wu jen casts arcane spells.

This build is also race independent.

[Cazador75]

What could work for this character is the divine crusader class from CD, you get fast casting progression from the hero domain. That would cut down the needed casting levels to 8 or 9 depending on your CHA. You could also take a good melee focused divine PRC to progress the divine crusader casting. What might work is the following build.


Fighter 6/Full BaB Class 1/ Divine Crusader (War Domain )1/ Ordained Champion 1 (pick up hero domain with this)/ knight of the raven 10 (From Expedition to castle ravenloft)/ Ordained Champion 4 /whatever 2

You get casting from the War, Hero And Sun domains, +19 BAB or so you might lose some with the last 2 levels that are open, 9th level spells including shapechange, various useful melee abilities
To get the caster level up to 19 you can use practiced spellcaster combined with prayer beads of karma to pick up a cl of 22. Also note that for your original build the prayer beads would not work as they need divine spells and wu jen casts arcane spells.

This build is also race independent.

I have yet to check your class suggestions, I will do it asap, what you said is very interesting. But about the prayer beads:

SRD Strand of Prayer Beads states:
"the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells."
"Bead of karma:   Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."

You need to be capable of casting divine spells to activate it, I can, since I have Cleric level 1. And bead of karma does not specify +4 divine caster level, just +4 caster level, so it does apply to anything that has to do with caster level.

[weenog]

The Hero Domain from Oriental Adventures has Giant Size as a level 8 spell, therefore the build is invalidated as you'll need at least 15 class levels in a caster class but you need 6 fighter levels for dungeon crasher (that is what this build is about)

Wasn't there an illumian cleric build back on 339 that used Heighten trickery and Extra Slot to pick up a 9th-level cleric spell slot at character level 6th?

[Havok4]

You are right that does work.
Another option might be to use ur priest with contemplative to pick up the hero domain, then move into bone knight from five nations. That is likely the stronger option although you will have a hard time getting the skills to work out due to the need for prerequisites.

[PhaedrusXY]

This is intended to be a melee build despite the caster class levels xD

All the good melee builds are casters. This is D&D. You're either a caster or dead weight.  

[Cazador75]

This is intended to be a melee build despite the caster class levels xD

All the good melee builds are casters. This is D&D. You're either a caster or dead weight.  

You know what I meant  , when I say that it is not a caster I mean a spellcaster, that is, a guy who relies on spells for damage, buffing, debuffing, healing, morphing, etc... This build is enhanced with magic, but the damage (it's principal purpose) and his options in combat doesn't come from spells...

[PhaedrusXY]

This is intended to be a melee build despite the caster class levels xD

All the good melee builds are casters. This is D&D. You're either a caster or dead weight.  

You know what I meant  , when I say that it is not a caster I mean a spellcaster, that is, a guy who relies on spells for damage, buffing, debuffing, healing, morphing, etc... This build is enhanced with magic, but the damage (it's principal purpose) and his options in combat doesn't come from spells...

I'm not sure you know what you meant...  

This build is primarily a spellcaster... with 6 levels of a non-spellcasting class stuck on for a specific ability. That still doesn't change the fact that it is primarily a spellcaster. It may only use its spells to buff itself up to enhance it's melee capability, but that still doesn't change the fact that it is primarily a spellcaster...

And (almost?) without exception, all of the most powerful "melee" builds in D&D are spellcasters (or have a spellcaster in their pocket for buffs via some kind of ally, or use magic items to emulate being a spellcaster so they can buff themselves, etc...).

[Cazador75]

This is intended to be a melee build despite the caster class levels xD

All the good melee builds are casters. This is D&D. You're either a caster or dead weight.  

You know what I meant  , when I say that it is not a caster I mean a spellcaster, that is, a guy who relies on spells for damage, buffing, debuffing, healing, morphing, etc... This build is enhanced with magic, but the damage (it's principal purpose) and his options in combat doesn't come from spells...

I'm not sure you know what you meant...  

This build is primarily a spellcaster... with 6 levels of a non-spellcasting class stuck on for a specific ability. That still doesn't change the fact that it is primarily a spellcaster. It may only use its spells to buff itself up to enhance it's melee capability, but that still doesn't change the fact that it is primarily a spellcaster...

And (almost?) without exception, all of the most powerful "melee" builds in D&D are spellcasters (or have a spellcaster in their pocket for buffs via some kind of ally, or use magic items to emulate being a spellcaster so they can buff themselves, etc...).

With "a guy who relies on spells for damage, buffing, debuffing, healing, morphing, etc..." I meant as primary function, this just casts one spell at the start of the day, don't relies on spellcasting with the combat begins.

I'm agreeing with you! ... How could I explain it... I mean the concept, if you see this guy in a battle you don't call him "spellcaster".
It is impossible (as far as I know) to make an optimized character with no magic at all.

[Havok4]

It is quite possible to optimize a completely mundane character, it is just that no matter what you do the character will never be able to properly deal with many high level challenges.

Anyway what PhaedrusXY is referring to is the reason why I suggested going the fast progression divine caster route, it gives you more room to focus on your melee combat abilities. Dumping 13 levels on a bad BAB d4 hit die class for one spell is less then optimal in this situation.

[Rebel7284]

Divine Crusader is a great idea for this character.  Even picking up 2-3 domains can give you amazing options.  Wasn't there a handbook on domain uses?  Sovereign Speaker is the obvious way of abusing this, but even just dipping Contemplative for a level or two works.