Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152327 times)

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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #680 on: September 17, 2011, 11:49:27 PM »
Adept has been shown to have versatility through his spells, as well as his domain, adepts can often focus on one task and do it remarkably well. However, their build locks to doing one thing really well, and must handle the rest with just spells. Which it gets slow. Meaning it ends up in tier 4.
I think you can reword this, as it stands it sounds like adepts are tier 4 because they have to handle most things with their spells, which kinda reads as dropping a lot of classes down to tier 4

The key point in that quote is "...handle the rest with just spells. Which it gets slow."  Let's face it, Adepts have a slow caster progression which is the main reason they're T4.  That and their spell list is somewhat lacking compared to the majority of PC classes.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #681 on: September 24, 2011, 09:27:40 AM »
Prosecuted would like to note that the prosecution has put out their closing statement 3 pages ago.

Prosecuted put out their closing statement long before but to sum it up:

Just waiting some time to see whether people disagreed with this as representative of the monk-prosecuting side.
Now, for the monk-defending side, allow me to retort :) :

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Expert has a small versatility through skills, and does thus belong in Tier 5, because it is more all round than a Tier 6 class. But can't do many things well enough to be Tier 4.

Nice idea to bring up the expert again. The expert is an npc class. That should tell everyone enough. In that expert vs monk thread the monk-doubting side have resorted to all kinds of double standards, including only showing expert builds with dominant super races or templates or cheap mounts and 3.0 material (all of which could also be taken by a monk player) to show how allegedly powerful the expert is.
In fact, it was illustrated there for all that the ONLY real big thing of the expert - to choose 10 class skills - can easily be emulated by everyone with all kinds of feats (skill prodigy, skill knowledge, apprentice, martial study etc). Moreover, classes like the monk that have bonus feats already covering most of their combat-related feats can actually afford taking those feats.
Which leaves a skill point advantage of 2/lvl to contend with what other classes have to offer. In the case of the monk this is (just because people keep ignoring/forgetting it): best melee base damage in the game, higher hp, all good saves, higher movement speed applied to all movement modes, spell resistance, etheralness, more stunning fist attempts, dimension door, poison immunity, a choice of evasion/greater invisbility/blink or all kinds of ACFs. Probably I forgot quite a few here. Ask your average player if he or she prefers 2 more skill pts/lvl or the complete array of monk class abilities (with whatever ACF is there).
(ah, and to add injury to insult, the monk even has MORE class skills to start with than the expert).
So, the clear conclusion here must be: if a tier system is used, the monk is higher than the expert. For sure. Whether it is one or more categories depends on the number of categories used.

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Monk (that isn't a dark moon disciple, a martial monk or a wild monk) has a very slim versatility score, but it does scouting and sneaking rather well. It does however, not do everything as well as the expert, and is vastly outperformed in many areas by Tier 4 classes, which puts it in tier 5. There is a special case for the monk, in that due to Illegal procedure, and no legal level 12 builds being produced it cannot have its' tier changed on anything but a theoretical basis. Until such evidence is produced.

It is quite fascinating how it can be that a single ability/ACF would lift a class an entire tier. In particular if (as in the case of the dark moon disciple) the monk has even more ways to achieve a similar outcome than just with a particular ACF (like invisible fist, getting the effect before dark moon) or even core class ability (etheralness, getting it after). Probably that is because it was me who suggested some powerful ACFs that they did not qualify (or it would have meant people had to admit I was right at least in some cases)...hmm..;). But that just as an aside.

The monk prosecuting side has it all upside down in such a closing statement on the monk.
First of all, the "illegal" procedure referred to is entirely legal (= the use of the item familiar feat for a non-core monk build to illustrate - just ONE - of the many ways a non-casting class can use a class ability or feat to cheat wbl just the way many people do for casters with item creation feats).
Second, it does not even matter since there were 4 more monk builds provided from my side alone (and more from others), all of which appear to have been forgotten by the prosecuting side (even including a 12th level monk build version without item familiar use).

Most importantly, though, neutral observers possibly cannot help but smile at the way the monk class is rated - without any evidence or arguments. It is just "it does not do that as well as xy, so it is a lower tier". But the whole "why it doesn't do it as well" is missing.
In fact, throughout this thread my request has been continuously ignored: to show how the three tier measurement challenges (dragon fight, slave resistance leader contact and gain his trust, help city vs orc army for level 12) would be done exactly by a swordsage or adept build. Similarly, it is not exactly useful for the monk-doubting side to make absurd claims time and again, like JaronK maintaining that a 12th level monk has less of a chance to survive than a hydra zombie.
So, even at most benign interpretation, all the prosecuting side may have left us with from this thread are question marks as to how the monk really compares to the adept and swordsage performances. But maybe I can give some hints below.

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Adept has been shown to have versatility through his spells, as well as his domain, adepts can often focus on one task and do it remarkably well. However, their build locks to doing one thing really well, and must handle the rest with just spells. Which it gets slow. Meaning it ends up in tier 4.

Well, just some highlights on adept vs monk:
1. A major thing going for the adept has been animate dead. I had said from the beginning in that separate monk vs adept thread that animate dead would be too expensive over time to make a consistent strategy. This was furiously denied.
In the end, even Jaronk (adding animate dead costs, carnexes cost, enveloping pit cost, size-reducing ring costs etc to avoid drawbacks for the group) had to admit that the costs to do this strategy went into the ten thousands gp. Also, in the few direct swordsage vs adept comparisons it came out that the ground-bound zombie (or skeleton) minions were not really THAAAT useful vs an iceclimbing, flying, swimming, burrowing dragon (meaning, in case such undead minions are not thaat useful in combat, that you need more gold to replace those destroyed). What does this leave us with? Yeah, in case the adept also uses dominate with cyst spells, he might also get human minions to avoid a suprise attack. But to have an army walking around you in general is a style of play not everyone in the group necessarily likes.
Most importantly, the monk could get feats or skill use and money to get minions, too. So, no particular adept advantage here.
2. Then, the finger dart spell was mentioned. In my view a can of worms, since the old 3.0 errata/BovD FAQ explicitly excludes game mechanisms to avoid the ability damage associated with it. It is too dodgy to rely a class performance on imo. And if it were accepted, everyone with that soulmeld trick could also UMD a wand of finger darts and do the same.
Again no adept advantage here.
3. Also, polymorph was mentioned. Problem: the moment you play with polymorph, the monk can also use it, say buy it (PaO anyone?).
Again, no adept advantage.
4. Then, some people mentioned the adept ability to create magic items. Quite useful, but not able to exceed wbl - or if it would, the monk could also do it.
Clearly, an adept advantage, but hardly a big one.
5. For a while, I thought one good thing for the adept would be to get an imp via improved familiar and then having access to commune and thus good divination/intelligence power. However, in the DMG where the improved familiar feat gets the adept an imp there is also described a way to get an imp as special cohort via leadership for all characters. Probably no DM I know of would allow the use of one DMG feat to provide an imp to one player but deny the use of another DMG feat to another player.
So, again, no adept advantage.

Which sort of makes one wonder: what does the 12th level adept offer, after all? Well, about a dozen spell effects per day, whose power level the monk also has (he can do greater invisibility already at level 2; can do blink at level 9; dimension door at level 12; a cure moderate wounds effect on himself at level 7; appears permanently hasted etc). Problem for the adept: the monk has better saves, AC, skills, hp - the whole base class chassis - that is vastly superior. It will even get worse for the adept at higher levels - as some have pointed out in the adept/swordsage comparison -, when the adept at most gets 5th level spells, while the monk gets things like spell resistance and etheralness.
Clear advantage monk. Small surprise here - since the adept is... an npc class!  :clap

So, by now we have established that both expert and adept must be a tier lower at least than the monk. Now, the swordsage.

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Swordsage Has been shown to do multiple things well, and the builds are easily interchangeable. Through maneuvres, their mobility is much better than their monk. And their damage can be quite impressive through both charging and maneuvres. All in all the versatility of being sneaky and having manoeuvres puts the swordsage in tier 3. There has been some discussion as to where in Tier 3, but Prosecuted think that is to game dependant to reach a verdict on.

Here I must say I was overall fairly disappointed by the swordsage builds posted here (I think SorO_Lost had a good concept for a debuffing swordsage, but that used mostly non-swordsage material to do the trick and also, the build mechanics did not work the way SorO_Lost intended iirc).
Even so, I guess the swordsage PROBABLY is a higher tier than the monk, simply due to the many combo potentials out of the dozens of maneuvers available. But two tiers? Well, that pushes it too far.
Some thoughts as to why I think so:
1. The mobility. For instance, the ability to - once per encounter - teleport with line of sight and effect 50ft as a move (or even standard) action appears cool. But is it really better than the 50ft move the monk can do per move action (or more)? The moment the monk gets a flying item (and 12th level suggests this is quite often the case), he has at 12th level a flying speed of 100ft. This is double that in a move action than what the swordsage gets with his high-level maneuver. Ah, and add to this the monk abilities of blink and dimension door. No, the swordsage is definitely not more mobile than the monk.
2. The damage of the swordsage considered as quite impressive. Well... that of the UNARMED swordsage definitely is (it tells you something that the swordsage gets boosted so much by getting a powerful MONK ability for free).
But even so... The builds shown did NOT do more damage than my example 12th level monk builds. In fact, they did less (I remember vaguely that my monk did 150 damage per round with his double damage snap kick, plus his double stuns on top for which the swordsage builds here had shown no equivalent effects). What happened is that JaronK with his charger idea (I do not call it a build since he did not provide any) got the multipliers wrong. Also, charging depends on line of sight - something which a dragon with hide as class ability is not always going to offer. And also, as I have shown at that point in the thread above, a monk can also use the exact same charger build tricks.
3. Sneakyness. Well - also, when faced with the evidence provided here - I may ask: where is the big swordsage advantage in stealth here? You do not even need the dark moon disciple ACF: The invisible fist monk can turn invisible as an immediate action for a round (possibly using that as a way to find hiding, blinking behind a wall for instance). What does provide an advantage for the swordsage is the higher number of skill points to put into stealth-relevant skills. But here, also, the lack of spot as a class skill hurts. Darkstalker feat can be taken by both swordsage and monk, as could other stealth improving elements of the game. Swordsage can get hearing the air, but (apart from the fact that you can get blindsight in other ways in the game, and with more range), the monk due to spot as a class skill can get the skill trick to see invisible.

So, overall, monk and swordsage are quite similar in their powers and role in the group, and probably - in my eyes - would perform similarly well when faced with the three tier challenges (monk even having the advantage of diplomacy as a class skill for that social interaction):
1. My monk builds have shown that the monk can have a good chance at level 12 vs an adult white dragon (as a swordsage likely could when properly built);
2. Like the swordsage, the monk can use his stealth skills/abilities, plus sense motive and diplomacy/knowledge local (swordsage gets diplomacy via white raven martial study feat, monk knowledge local via knowledge devotion) to have a chance to find and gain the trust of a slave resistance leader.
3. Like the swordsage, the monk can use his stealth skills/abilities and high damage/round (and stuns besides) to knock out orc army officers to help the city vs their army's attack.

In total, though, the higher skill points, and the unarmed damage for the unarmed swordsage, plus the maneuver versatility likely leaves the swordsage in a higher tier than the monk.

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That's it pretty much. Prosecuted would like to note that it has already provided the closing statement multiple times, and thus this serves merely as a reminder to the members of the jury.

My results in the following tier comparison: Swordsage, then monk, then npc classes like expert and adept.

That's about it.

- Giacomo


« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:34:21 AM by Sir Giacomo »

Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #682 on: September 24, 2011, 12:46:18 PM »
If the above statement is the closing argument of the prosecutor. Defendant would like to note that it is, as expected, pretty faulty.

The Item Familiar build was illegal, not for using item familiar, but for using the guidelines in the DMG as solid rules to produce custom magic items. It could just as well have used those rules to make an item that casts true-strike whenever he attacked. Thus making magic items up is barred as an illegal procedure.

The other monk builds the prosecution refer to aren't level 12. It should be noted that although the Monk CAN mimic the tricks of the expert. It makes him too MAD to be worthwhile at doing anything.

The clauses against the adept are complete junk.'
1. The undead minions have more HP, and more immunities than the monk, even if you count his double HP from having 50% miss chance.
2. Using wands of finger darts cost skill points and feats. I would love to see builds that attempted it and stayed useful.
3. Having Polymorph on your spell list is different than paying some wizard 3 levels ahead of you to turn you into an angel. Although the defendant digress and accept that prosecution will never quite understand this. So it urges the honorary members of the Jury to disregard further comments and references to PaO.
4. Ability to exceed WBL has been discussed. The defendant believe this point should only be taken in mind by the members of the Jury if they believe you can't exceed WBL with it.
5. If the monk can take leadership for an imp, the Adept can take leadership to get a wizard. Thus leadership must be disregarded completely when discussing tiers.

The defendant would, once again like to point out the glaring weakness of the monk is his MAD, although he could get a lot of abilities from different things, most of them are no better than a 30k item. The monk however spends ability points to get these abilities. Dark moon disciple is a special case, having 50% concealment all the time is pretty good, and not mimick'ed by an cheap item.

The faults in the count swordsage argument should point out themselves. But if the members of the Jury requires the defendant to point them out, they will.

The closing statements have been provided, and all we need for is an impartial judge. I appoint Solo.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #683 on: September 24, 2011, 05:44:28 PM »
If I am impartial, then this court is out of order.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #684 on: September 24, 2011, 05:54:17 PM »
If I am impartial, then this court is out of order.
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #685 on: September 24, 2011, 08:25:42 PM »
If the above statement is the closing argument of the prosecutor. Defendant would like to note that it is, as expected, pretty faulty.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here as to who is the prosecutor and who the defendant. Either way, you posted after your closing statement, so I shall do the same ... ;)

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The Item Familiar build was illegal, not for using item familiar, but for using the guidelines in the DMG as solid rules to produce custom magic items. It could just as well have used those rules to make an item that casts true-strike whenever he attacked. Thus making magic items up is barred as an illegal procedure.

Ah, I see. Do you know what DMG stands for? Dungeon Master GUIDE. HA! Sorry, had to say that.
More seriously: you can play with whatever houserule you like. I would usually also shy away from using custom items. But nowhere was any mention made of such a restriction. The DMG even points out that the prestige classes are entirely optional. Which in my book is even a weaker sort of "rule" than when the DMG says "guideline". Still, everyone will usually use prestige classes in the game.
Also, I feel that you do not even know how the item creation rules work. I'll try to explain. An item of true strike will be exactly that. It grants the wearer the ability to use the spell "true strike" which in turn only grants +20 on ONE attack, activated as a standard action. Cool, eh?
And as you probably know, an item that does greater mighty wallop 1/day can be emulated with other non-core items and game aspects. The main thing is that the monk makes such a big gain out of size-enhancers. And that is not going away with your houserule.

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The other monk builds the prosecution refer to aren't level 12.

Which still does not make your earlier comment any more correct. ;)

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It should be noted that although the Monk CAN mimic the tricks of the expert. It makes him too MAD to be worthwhile at doing anything.

Which is why things like carmendine monk/kung-fu genius were mentioned. And remember that almost NONE of the monk class abilities need any minimum ability scores to work at all (the only one being the blink ACF). So MAD is no issue in the monk vs expert comparison. Monk can do everthing an expert can, AND his monk stuff on top. Yeah. Guess which class is the higher tier.

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The clauses against the adept are complete junk.'
1. The undead minions have more HP, and more immunities than the monk, even if you count his double HP from having 50% miss chance.

Yep. But will it help to survive longer? A stone has hardness and more immunities than a monk. Is it going to survive longer when fighting someone?

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2. Using wands of finger darts cost skill points and feats. I would love to see builds that attempted it and stayed useful.

Maxing one skill and adding one or two feats plus a cheap item is not exactly what I'd call crippling a build. Far from it.

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3. Having Polymorph on your spell list is different than paying some wizard 3 levels ahead of you to turn you into an angel. Although the defendant digress and accept that prosecution will never quite understand this. So it urges the honorary members of the Jury to disregard further comments and references to PaO.

How much do you think would a spell be worth that summons a shortsword, when everyone can buy one? Yes, it is going to be useful in SOME situations. But in most, not. In particular, since you can also buy a greatsword. It does not matter at all when something is on someone's list of class abilities when everyone in the game can get it at some point. Also, I wonder whether you really know what kind of impact polymorph has on the game. It is much less powerful than you believe, I'd wager.

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4. Ability to exceed WBL has been discussed. The defendant believe this point should only be taken in mind by the members of the Jury if they believe you can't exceed WBL with it.

Strangely worded so I can hardly comment on it. Yes, all classes can choose to exceed wbl or not. DM's choice.

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5. If the monk can take leadership for an imp, the Adept can take leadership to get a wizard. Thus leadership must be disregarded completely when discussing tiers.

Oh no, not in this case. Leadership is entirely in the hands of the DM, who chooses what you get - so the adept cannot say "I wanna wizard". Well he could say it, but would not necessarily get what he wants. The moment he receives for a feat an imp, though, (also entirely up to the DM) there is no reason why the DM should deny it to someone else at the table getting it with a different game aspect. This is the basics of fair play, and I hope you will eventually agree with me here.

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The defendant would, once again like to point out the glaring weakness of the monk is his MAD, although he could get a lot of abilities from different things, most of them are no better than a 30k item. The monk however spends ability points to get these abilities. Dark moon disciple is a special case, having 50% concealment all the time is pretty good, and not mimick'ed by an cheap item.

Whereas a ring of blinking granting blink as an immediate action is going to be a cheap item? Plus an item granting immediate action greater invisibility every four rounds on top included in the same ACF? The eversmoking bottle grants total concealment for 5,400 gold. Granted, others also get total concealment against you - but you can gear your build towards that. Hmm... do the math yourself.

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The faults in the count swordsage argument should point out themselves. But if the members of the Jury requires the defendant to point them out, they will.

faults count swordsage? Huh? That you had nothing else to say on my swordage and monk comments tells all.

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The closing statements have been provided, and all we need for is an impartial judge. I appoint Solo.

Sigh. Probably this is getting nowhere (not coming as much of a surprise, after threads of combined more than 100 pages). I'll think of something else in a different thread to convince you.

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #686 on: September 24, 2011, 08:57:20 PM »
I have no desire to add to the shenanigans further, but: 

When comparing 2 classes or types of builds, it seems patently obvious that anything that any character could have access to -- regardless of class, build, etc. -- should not figure into it.  If everyone can and buy wands of [polymorph, finger darts, whatever] then that's a wash. 

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #687 on: September 24, 2011, 09:08:04 PM »
Dear Sir Giacomo, i would like to point out a few things in your post that i have a difference of opinion about.

Did you claim a Monk has a higher chance of surviving then a rock if brought to a fight? Of so i assume a rock would count as not surviving if it was destroyed.

I have played several campaigns now where i at low levels and even at higher levels when desperate has thrown rocks at people. Sometimes to do damage, and other times to distract or just be a dick. And all of the rocks "survived". In none of those encounters did the monsters start picking up the rocks and tried to kill then.

Then again, you could counter my argument with the fact that pebbles used in a sling is ammunition, and as such has a 50% chance to be "destroyed". And touche, that is a good counter argument. I will have to come back later to defend that.

Second.

You are saying a two feat investment and the purchase of a spell completion or spell trigger item that copy's a spell is a low price for a "trick". And i actually agree. Now, if i could make a a two feat investment as an Expert, and with that i could get all of the abilities a monk posses, would you agree that the Monk would need to be 1 or more tiers under the Expert? If not... What if said Expert would get spell casting abilities as well from the investment. Lets say both sorcerer and cleric casting. Would it then press the Tier of the monk lower?

I would appreciate if you would not only give me an answer to this question, but also put a little thought and effort into it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:10:14 PM by Lo77o »
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #688 on: September 25, 2011, 01:18:56 AM »
Now, if i could make a a two feat investment as an Expert, and with that i could get all of the abilities a monk posses
Name them.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #689 on: September 25, 2011, 01:37:14 AM »
Now, if i could make a a two feat investment as an Expert, and with that i could get all of the abilities a monk posses
Name them.
Stunning Fist + Monk's Belt is all you need to emulate a Monk in almost its entirety, so...

(Note: This is not including Monk ACF's)
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #690 on: September 25, 2011, 02:19:53 AM »
Now, if i could make a a two feat investment as an Expert, and with that i could get all of the abilities a monk posses
Name them.
Stunning Fist + Monk's Belt is all you need to emulate a Monk in almost its entirety, so...

(Note: This is not including Monk ACF's)
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm
Proficiencies, AC Bonus (+1 vs up to +4), Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike (1d6 vs up to 2d8), 1st Bonus Feat, 2nd Bonus Feat, 3rd Bonus Feat, (Improved) Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self.
Excluding invaluable AFCs of course.

You're going to have to buy some more items there. And probably be level 20 given Evasion alone is 40k and there is no price tag on the Improved version. If you can find a price tag for Power Attack & Improved Bull Rush let me know since that would be invaluable to chargers everywhere. Plus, extra attack(s) that stacks with every other extra attack ever (haste/bracers of blinding strike, snap kick, etc.).

Hey speaking of extra attacks doesn't the Monk get exclusive access to Circle Kick(each attack action attacks two different foes) and Lightning Blows(one more extra attack but -5 penalty) basically giving them an additional eight attacks per turn advantage by lv9 for the small cost of a Wand of Wrathstrike over everyone else in D&D? I wonder what that would cost...
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #691 on: September 25, 2011, 03:03:01 AM »
Quote
Hey speaking of extra attacks doesn't the Monk get exclusive access to Circle Kick(each attack action attacks two different foes)
You're thinking of 3.0 and Neverwinter Nights.

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #692 on: September 25, 2011, 03:15:50 AM »
Quote
Hey speaking of extra attacks doesn't the Monk get exclusive access to Circle Kick(each attack action attacks two different foes)
You're thinking of 3.0 and Neverwinter Nights.
It was printed in Sword & Fist so it is official not-updated 3.0 rules.

Never played Neverwinter sadly. In fact I've only beaten Icewind Dale (and expansion), Baldur's Gate is a very long game, too long for my attention span and after I move on I'll forget to back up the save files :(
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #693 on: September 25, 2011, 03:48:34 AM »
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Circle Kick, SF 5, Revised for v.3.5; renamed Roundabout Kick, War 105.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #694 on: September 25, 2011, 07:32:14 AM »
Now, if i could make a a two feat investment as an Expert, and with that i could get all of the abilities a monk posses
Name them.

Ill share when iv gotten an answer. And the reason i want to wait is that if i share now, then the "trick" will just be attacked and the question will be ignored. Ohh and on a side note, it seems i would need 3 feats :( But the point still stands.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 07:34:44 AM by Lo77o »
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #695 on: September 25, 2011, 07:55:13 AM »
Lo77o,

nice reply to my stone picture - but you probably realise that team monster once realising the stone is the opponent would crush it quite quickly - despite its hardness and immunities ;).

Now, about your idea for an expert to get all monk abilities with two feats : I'd like to see that and then gladly accept your view (in case it really works!

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #696 on: September 25, 2011, 12:31:56 PM »
As a 6th level Expert i would Max Wis and Cha. Invest in UMD. I would spend 6700 gp on 1 scroll of polymorph and 2 scrolls of polymorph any object.

One of the feats i would pick would be Assume Supernatural Ability (Feed).

Then i would use a scroll of polymorph to turn into a Barghest.

I would feed until i i would have gained another 12 outsider HD.

With those levels i would pick the feats Iron Will and Reserves of Strength.

I would then use the 2 scrolls of PoA to turn into a 15 HD Phaerimm.

I now posses the ability to cast 7th level arcane spells.

I would then use my own casting to cast a polymorph spell to turn into an 18 HD Phaerimm.

I now posses the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells.

I would now cast PoA twice to permanently turn into a Secondus. (And abuse a few free wishes or other fun before doing so)

I now posses 20th level sorcerer casting, 20th level cleric casting, a slew of special abilities including most of the abilities of a 13th level Monk. I wouldn't get dimension door 1/day as a monk and a few other things, but i am sure dual 9th level spells can make up for that.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:33:50 PM by Lo77o »
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ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #697 on: September 25, 2011, 01:17:05 PM »
I don't get it...
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #698 on: September 25, 2011, 04:26:25 PM »
If I am impartial, then this court is out of order.
Food court? If so, can I super-size it?

Is that one of those overpowered templates you can take at 1st level ?

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #699 on: September 25, 2011, 06:04:47 PM »
I don't get it...
Barghests have the ability  to increase their HD by eating things.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.