Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept

[Jackinthegreen]

While we're on the subject of white dragons, it's worth noting they are immune to Shivering Touch due to having the Cold subtype.  Using Energy Substitution may or may not change this.

DM golem, I believe they're referring to animals that have to constantly worry about predators and such.  I'm pretty sure you aren't such an animal. 

[SorO_Lost]

Beguiler dominates someone who can.  Zing!

Undead Dread Necro: "My follow undead, I have been ordered to attack which means I shall follow that to the best of my ability."
Living Beguiler: "Hells ya."
Undead Dread Necro: "And so I order you all to kill all living creatures."
Living Beguiler: "Shit. New orders! Attack everyone el--"
Zombie Hydra: *chomp*.

While we're on the subject of white dragons, it's worth noting they are immune to Shivering Touch due to having the Cold subtype.  Using Energy Substitution may or may not change this.

Shivering Touch notes creatures with the cold type are immune to it, so RAW no. I'd allow it *shrugs*.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

DM golem, I believe they're referring to animals that have to constantly worry about predators and such.  I'm pretty sure you aren't such an animal. 

Although he does constantly use hide and disguise checks against his weenie filter.

[awaken DM golem]

No no, my kitty avatar has a real problem with Angry Birds.


Luckily I can "flurry" right through my weenie filter just like the Monk. You betcha 

[JaronK]

DM golem, I believe they're referring to animals that have to constantly worry about predators and such.  I'm pretty sure you aren't such an animal. 

Even humans have an instinct to hide when they sleep... there's a reason we like having specific bedrooms with doors within our houses, and bundling ourselves under covers even when they're not really needed for temperature reasons.  Likewise, there are reasons most of us would prefer to have a tent when we sleep outside.

This is not to say that all humans always sleep hidden from the outside world, but as a general rule we do prefer it.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

Maybe Golems are inedible.

[Twilightwyrm]

It does not say the dragon's hoard is coated with ice. It says the dragon's hoard is in a cavern covered in ice (which is continues in the description to say, is because the ice reflects the gems). And even if it were the case that it covers its hoard in ice, where the hell does it say it covers in in ice on the ceiling? So again, why is it not just sleeping on the floor, on its hoard? Yeah it can sleep wherever it wants, but given the factors I previously mentioned, the average white dragon has the drive, and the ego, to simply sit on its hoard in the middle of the cavern? Seriously, why does everyone assume every moderately powerful monster has the mindset of a paranoid wizard...

Can you name a single animal that sleeps in the open, given the choice?  Every critter I know of prefers to sleep in more concealed areas, from cats that prefer to sleep in boxes or in elevated positions to bats that sleep on the roofs of dark areas to deer lying down in tall grass.  The only exceptions are those that dose around plenty of others, who keep watch for them.  And can you think of a single creature that climbs or flies and yet sleeps on the ground in the open?  I can't.  Birds and squirrels and such tend to sleep up higher where it's safe, except for very rare nesting creatures that make small hidden nests and the occasional burrower.  As a rule, all critters like to sleep in the safest possible place, given their abilities.

As such, I'd imagine a White Dragon would do the same thing... most likely having a nice sleeping cavern with a raised ledge (just big enough for his treasure and himself) above the entrance way (about 50' above it).  The gold pile would be on this ledge, and the dragon would sleep on that.  This allows him to easily detect anyone coming in (they'd be in range of his Blindsense) while still letting him have the advantage.  That's not paranoia... that's a pretty normal sleeping arrangement. 

JaronK

Funny thing about all the animals you mentioned: none are large predators. But further than this, you seem to be missing the obvious: the White Dragon is not sleeping in the open, it is sleeping in a lair. I'm not contesting that an average white dragon would sleep in the middle of a frozen tundra, I'm contesting it would not sleep on the ceiling of its own lair. The lair itself is supposed to provide that security. That is what it has for protection, hence why the proposed class tier scenario includes that as part of the dragon challenge. And further, this lair need not be in the open. Underground caverns and the sides of glaciers or mountains would work find for the dragon's purpose, and pose the same security as an elevated birds nest. Further, unlike the flying/burrowing animals you mentioned, a dragon is a large predator. Hence the dragon is going to have more in common with a tiger than the most aggressive eagle. Finding a lair, then finding the most comfortable spot is common to large, none pack oriented, predators from tigers to alligators. Why would the dragon go above and beyond this?

This might theoretically be fine if the dragon never planned on expanding their hoard. Unless you have a very large ledge (in which case it would almost certainly extend beyond 60ft, ceasing to make it am impediment for said swordsage), as a dragon placing your hoard there pretty much automatically sets a limit on how big it can get before it starts spilling over the edge, where it can no longer see it. But even were this scenario the case, this wouldn't make much difference as the swordsage could simply reverse the order in which he uses Shadow Stride/Sudden Leap to get over to the dragon anyways. This is more or less moot however, given how unlikely this scenario would be in the first place.

[JaronK]

Funny thing about all the animals you mentioned: none are large predators.

Okay.  Lions do it too... they sleep in the open only when they have a pride covering them.  Is that large enough for you?  What about alligators and crocodiles? They sleep camouflaged and hidden.  Tigers also tend to find a secure area, near fallen trees or other similar secluded spots.  Can you name a big predator that sleeps alone and in the open?

But further than this, you seem to be missing the obvious: the White Dragon is not sleeping in the open, it is sleeping in a lair. I'm not contesting that an average white dragon would sleep in the middle of a frozen tundra, I'm contesting it would not sleep on the ceiling of its own lair. The lair itself is supposed to provide that security. That is what it has for protection, hence why the proposed class tier scenario includes that as part of the dragon challenge. And further, this lair need not be in the open. Underground caverns and the sides of glaciers or mountains would work find for the dragon's purpose, and pose the same security as an elevated birds nest. Further, unlike the flying/burrowing animals you mentioned, a dragon is a large predator. Hence the dragon is going to have more in common with a tiger than the most aggressive eagle. Finding a lair, then finding the most comfortable spot is common to large, none pack oriented, predators from tigers to alligators. Why would the dragon go above and beyond this?

Why do humans prefer sleep in bedrooms and not in a giant open areas?  They've already got a house and door locks to protect them.  The fact is, we sleep in the most secured areas we can (like all animals) because sleeping time is when we're most vulnerable.  The fact is, a climbing flying creature can easily be up high, safe from ground based predators (such as PCs).  And this is a particularly intelligent one... not a genius by human standards, but a lot smarter than your average tiger.  There's no reason at all for a White Dragon NOT to sleep up on a ledge that's inaccessible to ground based attackers.

This might theoretically be fine if the dragon never planned on expanding their hoard. Unless you have a very large ledge (in which case it would almost certainly extend beyond 60ft, ceasing to make it am impediment for said swordsage), as a dragon placing your hoard there pretty much automatically sets a limit on how big it can get before it starts spilling over the edge, where it can no longer see it.

Do you believe a White Dragon can't just carve out some more ice to increase the size of his ledge as needed?  Also, consider how much treasure an Adult White Dragon has.  Now calculate how much space that would take.  It's really not very much.  Now do the same for a Great Wyrm.  It never even gets bigger than the dragon (even with lots of copper pieces).  So, the ledge really only has to be as big as the dragon.

But even were this scenario the case, this wouldn't make much difference as the swordsage could simply reverse the order in which he uses Shadow Stride/Sudden Leap to get over to the dragon anyways. This is more or less moot however, given how unlikely this scenario would be in the first place.

The idea here is that a dragon can't be taken by surprise without something like Darkstalker, because he should be above the entrance and has Blindsense.  Thus, you can't just ambush him... he auto detects you the moment you'd even have a chance to see him. 

This is not to say a Swordsage can't do a lot to him.  It's just that he's not going to be sitting out sleeping where he can easily be ambushed (especially considering a White Dragon is a creature that primarily fights via ambush... it's one thing he knows well) or surprise charged.

But I do believe that the basic defenses of a White Dragon's lair should include a lair designed for 3D movement (climbing and flying) with ice everywhere (to take advantage of his ice walking), some appropriate traps, and areas that are very awkward for 2D movers to deal with.  It should furthermore be designed to be very convenient and safe for a creature with 60' blindsense, and have solid positions to ambush from.  That fits exactly with how the creatures are described.

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

I really hate the "Dragons can't be... killed,suprise,fucked over in any normal way arguments" just as soon not have them if we're using them in a way that says "oh shit invincible dragon maw!".

If thats the case, fuck fighting dragons in thier lair. Crumble the entrances and wait for it to come out, or just ignore the fap fest.
That being said... Don't dragons need to actually sleep atop thier horde? It's been years since I picked up the Faponomicon, and I'm hazy as to what the purpose of the horde is.

Also... I can't find what level you're talking about... but at level 10 Adult White Dragon's only have a 10 int, and the rest of them below that have 8's and 6's.
A great wyrm white dragon only has an 18 intelligence.

 So most adult white dragons are only of average human intelligence... average human intelligence that means most white dragons are going to watch jersey shore and love pop music. You're probbably smarter than a white dragon if you're sitting here reading this because you've had years of schooling and spend a portion of your time studying SOMETHING. Where as they're just kinda...thugs.
While a white dragon might have a cave there's not really going to be elaborate "I always discover all intruders" cave set ups. Either change dragons or lets dispense with this dragon/animal supremacy, cause a lot of you right now are sitting in your house and typing on this screen and your door or windows are unlocked (go check we'll still be here), and... there are LOTS of threats.
White Dragons are average joe smart and average joe lazy.

[Twilightwyrm]

See now if you has read what I was saying regarding the Pit Fiend, then your entire question here would be answered. But more to the point, why are you assuming that the Dread Necro has a bunch of no save, no SR, crippling spells at their disposal? Because undead creation aside, the Dread Necro doesn't seem to have much in the way of anything in terms of no SR offensive spells. Hell, there aren't a lot of no-save spells available either, so that Dread Necro had better have some specialization in overcoming SR and saves if they want to be useful beyond the latest undead pet their can boast. Seriously, if you are a Dread Necro facing down a Pit Fiend, how are you taking it out in a round or two, in this supposed no save, no SR method you speak of? Further, while you might be somewhat protected from fire (unless you have immunity (presumably from some source other than the abilities available to your class), 10d6 fireballs can do up to 60 damage, and Energy Resistance typically doesn't go past 30. I would say doing an extra 0 to 30 damage every round with an action you aren't using anyways, to the jackass that just paralyzed you with Dexterity damage its a terrible plan, especially if this is a person who is likely now also paralyzed (as per Hold Person or Power Word Stun), and one of the more squishy targets of the group. And even if you assume you are protected from fire damage, are you going to provide the additional cost of giving fire immunity to every undead minion you are taking with you? You don't have access to the spell itself, so are you going to pay for an (not inexpensive) item for each of your minions to get this? And this is all assuming the Pit Fiend actually feels like saying around as opposed to, oh I don't know, teleporting away to have those undead minions you mentioned get to healing his ability damage, only to come back rather pissed off, and probabl with you still paralyzed.
As for what this has to do with adept vs swordsage, it is tangentially related. I had, a while back, asked why exactly the swordsage was supposedly outclassed by pretty much all of tier 3. This lead to my questioning how exactly the various spells of the tier 3 spellcasters makes them that much better in a fight than the Swordsage, the "HP damage sucks" answer was given, and a long discussion resulted (involving an illusion based pit trap beyond the means of most any tier 3 caster). This lead to a discussion of save or die/suck spells vs. direct damage, and I was using the Pit Fiend as an example of a high level monster with saving throw bonuses beyond the DC of most save or die/suck spells. (And the Pit Fiend isn't even the best of those in its category at resisting such spells). then shivering touch was mentioned, hence why a paralyzed pit fiend came into play. Understand?

Alright, I shall address a few problems I see with the spells you mention, in order of the spells you mentioned. Don't get me wrong, these are all good spells, but are potentially hindered in this case:

1. Ray of Exhaustion- Save makes this fatigued, failing to credibly take out the target before it has the ability to at least paralyze you for trying. Allows SR.
2. Vampire Touch- Direct damage. Kind of missing the point of the discussion. Assuming you get reach extension this is, at max, 90 hp worth of damage at level 20, within 30ft. May put you out of reach of Power Word Stun. Won't help when you have hold person cast on you in the next round. Will help soften it up a bit though. Allows SR.
3. Enervation- Max 6 negative levels, weakening it maybe, but not taking it out of commission. Allows SR. Also, puts you within 35 feet of the Pit Fiend. (Notably, only reduced HP by 30, not putting the Pit Fiend within range for Symbol of Death)
4. Black Tentacles- Max grapple for this level is +28. Pit Fiend has +35 to grapple, and can either fly or simply move out of the area on the next round (assuming teleportation has been neutralized, requiring the aid of other party members)
5. Wave of Fatigue- Might be helpful if quickened and coupled with Ray of Exhaustion. Strong debuff, bot not enough to neutralize the threat, if both pass SR.
6. Cloudkill- Creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell. Pit Fiend is immune to poison.
7. Acid Fog- Max 12 acid damage per round. Only 2 to a Pit Fiend, which has Acid Resistance 10.
8. Wave of Exhaustion- Good debuff, but not really enough to neutralize the Pit Fiend. It will help soften it up a bit, which it quite helpful, but doesn't neutralize it. Also, allows SR.
9. Geas/Quest- Unholy Aura negates, and has a 10 minute casting time. Great if you have already neutralized the Pit Fiend. Not so great otherwise. As for unwilling help recruitment, must first find said help. Also, the Leadership feat tends to make the ability to recruit help somewhat...common. (I will grant it can be abused, but you are likely to get some...intervention if you attempt to do so) Also, allows SR.
10. Symbol of Death- A commonly misunderstood tactic. Could potentially kill 3000 hp worth of creatures, only if every one of those creatures has HP under 150 (actually says it skips over any creature with upwards of 150 hp). Also, Fortitude and SR negate. (Not to mention you would be spending 10,000 gp in the process, a bit expensive for a one off kill) Further, unless you plan on giving whatever you put the symbol on fire immunity as well, the Pit Fiend will probably destroy it, thereby destroying all the symbols, before you can sufficiently debuff it to get it effected. Allows SR.
11. Energy Drain- Kind of a luck in terms of its debuffing ability. On average it will net you 5 negative levels, but min is 2, and max is 8. In terms of averages, you are probably better off using a maxed empowered enervation, unless you didn't feel like taking five feats just to sap 6 negative levels with said spell. Still, potentially a bit debuff, and good assuming teleportation has been neutralized. Also, allows SR. (Also only subtracts 40 hp from the Pit Fiend's total)

So, strictly speaking, the only spell here that effects the Pit Fiend at all, that doesn't allow SR, is Acid Fog. Everything else allows it, meaning you are going to need to spend three feats to reliably pass it every single time. This isn't a terrible burden, except that even in the case that this does happen, you are only really debuffing it with most of the spells which, while effective, isn't really enough to put them into the save/no save or suck category, and massive debuffing aside, only one spell that will outright neutralize the enemy on the round it is activated. Also, on the note about fireball, so long as the fireball can actually do damage, the Pit Fiend is probably going to keep on using them, because why the hell not. I'm not saying they are going to be doing bucket loads of damage every round, but if you seriously think Acid Fog, which only deals up to 12 damage every round, is worth using at this level, being able to deal 0-30 damage every round to people within a 20ft. burst is going to be worth something. So unless the party, and everything you own, is completely invulnerable to fire, can you think of a reason why the Pit Fiend would not employ it every round?

[Twilightwyrm]

Funny thing about all the animals you mentioned: none are large predators.

Okay.  Lions do it too... they sleep in the open only when they have a pride covering them.  Is that large enough for you?  What about alligators and crocodiles? They sleep camouflaged and hidden.  Tigers also tend to find a secure area, near fallen trees or other similar secluded spots.  Can you name a big predator that sleeps alone and in the open?

Is a frozen lair embedded in the side of an iceberg "alone and in the open"?

But further than this, you seem to be missing the obvious: the White Dragon is not sleeping in the open, it is sleeping in a lair. I'm not contesting that an average white dragon would sleep in the middle of a frozen tundra, I'm contesting it would not sleep on the ceiling of its own lair. The lair itself is supposed to provide that security. That is what it has for protection, hence why the proposed class tier scenario includes that as part of the dragon challenge. And further, this lair need not be in the open. Underground caverns and the sides of glaciers or mountains would work find for the dragon's purpose, and pose the same security as an elevated birds nest. Further, unlike the flying/burrowing animals you mentioned, a dragon is a large predator. Hence the dragon is going to have more in common with a tiger than the most aggressive eagle. Finding a lair, then finding the most comfortable spot is common to large, none pack oriented, predators from tigers to alligators. Why would the dragon go above and beyond this?

Why do humans prefer sleep in bedrooms and not in a giant open areas?  They've already got a house and door locks to protect them.  The fact is, we sleep in the most secured areas we can (like all animals) because sleeping time is when we're most vulnerable.  The fact is, a climbing flying creature can easily be up high, safe from ground based predators (such as PCs).  And this is a particularly intelligent one... not a genius by human standards, but a lot smarter than your average tiger.  There's no reason at all for a White Dragon NOT to sleep up on a ledge that's inaccessible to ground based attackers.

Because we, despite what some might claim, are not the ultimate predators in the world. The ultimate omnivores perhaps, but we as a species still remember what it is like to be prey (hence the popularity of various genres of scary movies). Furthermore, we are not solitary predators, and as such either rely on each other, or demonstrably secure structures for our security, since an individual human is unlikely to be able to fight off a nocturnal ambush by most predators. And more to the point, the dragon does have a house (called a lair for our purposes), that it probably does go out of its way to make somewhat inaccessible. But, when you go to sleep, do you lock your room door, and climb into your carefully constructed ceiling bed? Or sleep with camouflage covers pulled over your head? Chances are no, so why would a solitary predator, with both a body mass and ego several times your size, and ready means to defend itself against all but the most powerful nocturnal predators, do otherwise? And seriously, what ground based nocturnal predators in its area are actually going to be big enough to threaten the dragon, much less get into its lair? (As for PCs, the PCs are generally just a bunch of foolish humanoids as far as such a dragon is concerned, unless it has reason to believe differently) And while granted it is smarter, considerations of comfort and ego would tend to trump this for such a creature (as I already explained).

This might theoretically be fine if the dragon never planned on expanding their hoard. Unless you have a very large ledge (in which case it would almost certainly extend beyond 60ft, ceasing to make it am impediment for said swordsage), as a dragon placing your hoard there pretty much automatically sets a limit on how big it can get before it starts spilling over the edge, where it can no longer see it.

Do you believe a White Dragon can't just carve out some more ice to increase the size of his ledge as needed?  Also, consider how much treasure an Adult White Dragon has.  Now calculate how much space that would take.  It's really not very much.  Now do the same for a Great Wyrm.  It never even gets bigger than the dragon (even with lots of copper pieces).  So, the ledge really only has to be as big as the dragon.

Yes, if it doesn't mind its hoard (or it, without at least a 10 foot margin around the edge) falling over the edge every night as it sleeps. Even if you assume the hoard is backed into a corner, and the dragon sleeps against it, the 10 margin is necessary to at least keep its limbs comfortable on the ledge. Unless for some reason it likes the sensation of sleeping at the edge of a cliff...

But even were this scenario the case, this wouldn't make much difference as the swordsage could simply reverse the order in which he uses Shadow Stride/Sudden Leap to get over to the dragon anyways. This is more or less moot however, given how unlikely this scenario would be in the first place.

The idea here is that a dragon can't be taken by surprise without something like Darkstalker, because he should be above the entrance and has Blindsense.  Thus, you can't just ambush him... he auto detects you the moment you'd even have a chance to see him.  

This is not to say a Swordsage can't do a lot to him.  It's just that he's not going to be sitting out sleeping where he can easily be ambushed (especially considering a White Dragon is a creature that primarily fights via ambush... it's one thing he knows well) or surprise charged.

But I do believe that the basic defenses of a White Dragon's lair should include a lair designed for 3D movement (climbing and flying) with ice everywhere (to take advantage of his ice walking), some appropriate traps, and areas that are very awkward for 2D movers to deal with.  It should furthermore be designed to be very convenient and safe for a creature with 60' blindsense, and have solid positions to ambush from.  That fits exactly with how the creatures are described.

JaronK

No it does not. With respect, you are thinking of this from a advantage maximizing perspective, and not from the perspective of a creature like this, and assuming it is reasonable for the creature to think in such a manner. Yes, the dragon will be thinking in terms of 3D movement, and even places to attack from ambush, but it won't be optimizing and sculpting its lair based upon these principles. Why? The dragon is probably asking itself this very question. I can understand the surrounding landscape where it hunts, I can even understand sections of its lair it likes to stalk, should some unfortunate creature become trapped within. But the place where it sleeps, and keeps its hoard? Why? What the hell is going to attack it to make this necessary. It already is probably lairing in an inaccessible location, and has already established a system for guarding, and hunting in, the rest of it. That is assumed to already be passed (as the dungeon element has already been addressed). So why bother with this, especially when it degrades the general comfort of the area.
Just stop and think about this for a second. The dragon has its lair, say, in a cavern under a frozen lake, in the side of a glacier, at the top of a treacherous mountain, or some other similarly inaccessible location. Further, at this stage in its life, it is without a doubt the largest and most dangerous predator in its natural area. This cannot be understated enough. This is like if you have a tree house, and the largest other predators in your general area are dogs. Now add to this the fact that you can freeze most stuff in the area with your breath, you are coated in what can only be described as full plate skin, you have flaws and teeth that rip smaller creatures to shreds in seconds, the ability to fly, and finally everything smaller than you tends to run in fear when you approach. Unless you have regular experience with the local rabbits trying to kill you, and getting away with in in groups of only about four that also happen to be able to somehow access your tree house, and cut you with flaming teeth, why are you going out of your way to make your bedroom rabbit proof? Especially when you, for some inexplicable reason, also have multiple means of trapping said rabbits, or birds, or whatever other prey tumbles upon your tree house, in the immediate vicinity. Also, you consider yourself a superior creature to those around you, thinking of them as mere food or nuances. So please, explain, why do you go to these lengths to make reaching you difficult for the local rabbit population?

[Midnight_v]

Twighlightwyrm: Made of win.
 

[Mixster]

I'm not saying they are going to be doing bucket loads of damage every round, but if you seriously think Acid Fog, which only deals up to 12 damage every round, is worth using at this level, being able to deal 0-30 damage every round to people within a 20ft. burst is going to be worth something. So unless the party, and everything you own, is completely invulnerable to fire, can you think of a reason why the Pit Fiend would not employ it every round?

If you seriously think I'm using Acid Fog because of the damage. I guess it makes sense that you also think that a quickened fireball every round is worth mentioning at level 20.
Yeah, it's gonna use it every round sure, but it's just not gonna be much use.

---

On the predators that sleep in the open debate (not that it is in any way related to White Dragons AT ALL), Polar Bears sleep in the Open. Mostly on Ice Floes. I guess that's what comes from being the biggest predator around.

Alright, I shall address a few problems I see with the spells you mention, in order of the spells you mentioned. Don't get me wrong, these are all good spells, but are potentially hindered in this case:

1. Ray of Exhaustion- Save makes this fatigued, failing to credibly take out the target before it has the ability to at least paralyze you for trying. Allows SR.
2. Vampire Touch- Direct damage. Kind of missing the point of the discussion. Assuming you get reach extension this is, at max, 90 hp worth of damage at level 20, within 30ft. May put you out of reach of Power Word Stun. Won't help when you have hold person cast on you in the next round. Will help soften it up a bit though. Allows SR.
3. Enervation- Max 6 negative levels, weakening it maybe, but not taking it out of commission. Allows SR. Also, puts you within 35 feet of the Pit Fiend. (Notably, only reduced HP by 30, not putting the Pit Fiend within range for Symbol of Death)
4. Black Tentacles- Max grapple for this level is +28. Pit Fiend has +35 to grapple, and can either fly or simply move out of the area on the next round (assuming teleportation has been neutralized, requiring the aid of other party members)
5. Wave of Fatigue- Might be helpful if quickened and coupled with Ray of Exhaustion. Strong debuff, bot not enough to neutralize the threat, if both pass SR.
6. Cloudkill- Creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell. Pit Fiend is immune to poison.
7. Acid Fog- Max 12 acid damage per round. Only 2 to a Pit Fiend, which has Acid Resistance 10.
8. Wave of Exhaustion- Good debuff, but not really enough to neutralize the Pit Fiend. It will help soften it up a bit, which it quite helpful, but doesn't neutralize it. Also, allows SR.
9. Geas/Quest- Unholy Aura negates, and has a 10 minute casting time. Great if you have already neutralized the Pit Fiend. Not so great otherwise. As for unwilling help recruitment, must first find said help. Also, the Leadership feat tends to make the ability to recruit help somewhat...common. (I will grant it can be abused, but you are likely to get some...intervention if you attempt to do so) Also, allows SR.
10. Symbol of Death- A commonly misunderstood tactic. Could potentially kill 3000 hp worth of creatures, only if every one of those creatures has HP under 150 (actually says it skips over any creature with upwards of 150 hp). Also, Fortitude and SR negate. (Not to mention you would be spending 10,000 gp in the process, a bit expensive for a one off kill) Further, unless you plan on giving whatever you put the symbol on fire immunity as well, the Pit Fiend will probably destroy it, thereby destroying all the symbols, before you can sufficiently debuff it to get it effected. Allows SR.
11. Energy Drain- Kind of a luck in terms of its debuffing ability. On average it will net you 5 negative levels, but min is 2, and max is 8. In terms of averages, you are probably better off using a maxed empowered enervation, unless you didn't feel like taking five feats just to sap 6 negative levels with said spell. Still, potentially a bit debuff, and good assuming teleportation has been neutralized. Also, allows SR. (Also only subtracts 40 hp from the Pit Fiend's total)

Ok, counter your issues.
SR, SR is regarded as a minor obstacle, most mages have one or more ways of getting around it. Assuming a 20th level character does not is just silly.
You could use a Twinned, Empowered Enervation, which is a 9th level spell (or 7 with Arcane Thesis, 5 With Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic, Twin Ray can be gained from a Rod, to keep this a level 4/5(without practical) spell). That deals 3d4 negative level damage (2d4+50% is pretty much 3d4), or 7.5 on average.
Symbol Of Death, ah yeah, the 5000gp price is a killer, this is an unsound tactic. However, you could just put the symbols on something made of stone, which is pretty hard destroying with a fireball.
Black Tentacles. This spell is Uncapped, there's a variety of builds that abuse this. (Also RAW I think you can take Kobold Endurance to increase the potency of it by +4)
So all the exhaustion tricks still stand, and the Enervation does too.
An Empowered, Repeating shivering touch (or a quickened followed by a normal one, or a Maximized (through rod) empowered one) also paralyzes the Pit Fiend Outright, which gives it only one fireball and one Peristent image to weasle itself out of getting it's head split open with a Scythe.

Pit fiends aren't that Powerful CR20 Mobs though, dragons and Balors are IMO much more powerful, as soon as you've got that pesky Teleportation out of hand Pit Fiends are pretty easy getting down.

[JaronK]

So please, explain, why do you go to these lengths to make reaching you difficult for the local rabbit population?

Please remember that I'm talking about sleeping on a ledge above ground level.  Do you consider that to be "lengths" for a creature that explicitly likes climbing and flying, has a mentality focused on ambushing, explicitly seeks out ambush points (and designs them into its lair), and is all around a cunning predator?  You really think a ledge is some great length?

To be clear, I'm not saying this dragon is wearing a hat of disguise to look like a Red Dragon while using permanent illusions to make the area look firey, hiring the local Kobold population to provide early warning systems, using contingent Shimmering Scales, and so on.  That sort of stuff I'd expect from a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (illusioned to look like a White of course) but not from an Adult White.  But I do think that we're talking about an ambushy creature who likes to climb, so I'd expect him to act like one.  This is not some super secret invincible dragon thing.  This is him being on a ledge because it uses his natural abilities exactly how the books say he likes to behave.  Can he still be attacked?  Of course.  Darkstalker alone should allow you to sneak up on him if you know what you're doing.  But he shouldn't be vulnerable to a ground based attack from a guy who's simply kinda fast because he's too dumb to sleep on a ledge.  Sleeping on a ledge (carved out by him to be comfy) for this creature is as natural as a bird putting its nest in a tree, a bat hanging on the top of a cave, or a tiger crawling in under a bush to nap.  I don't think he would sleep on the ceiling (the books say they sleep on their horde, and they like to make the horde visible).

And remember, this guy is CR 12.  He's not an apex predator in D&D lands.  He's mid tier.  Equivalent to a cheetah in real life perhaps.

And for the record, Polar Bears dig pits to sleep in so as to hide themselves, despite being camouflaged apex predators.

JaronK

[Twilightwyrm]

So please, explain, why do you go to these lengths to make reaching you difficult for the local rabbit population?

Please remember that I'm talking about sleeping on a ledge above ground level.  Do you consider that to be "lengths" for a creature that explicitly likes climbing and flying, has a mentality focused on ambushing, explicitly seeks out ambush points (and designs them into its lair), and is all around a cunning predator?  You really think a ledge is some great length?

To be clear, I'm not saying this dragon is wearing a hat of disguise to look like a Red Dragon while using permanent illusions to make the area look firey, hiring the local Kobold population to provide early warning systems, using contingent Shimmering Scales, and so on.  That sort of stuff I'd expect from a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (illusioned to look like a White of course) but not from an Adult White.  But I do think that we're talking about an ambushy creature who likes to climb, so I'd expect him to act like one.  This is not some super secret invincible dragon thing.  This is him being on a ledge because it uses his natural abilities exactly how the books say he likes to behave.  Can he still be attacked?  Of course.  Darkstalker alone should allow you to sneak up on him if you know what you're doing.  But he shouldn't be vulnerable to a ground based attack from a guy who's simply kinda fast because he's too dumb to sleep on a ledge.  Sleeping on a ledge (carved out by him to be comfy) for this creature is as natural as a bird putting its nest in a tree, a bat hanging on the top of a cave, or a tiger crawling in under a bush to nap.  I don't think he would sleep on the ceiling (the books say they sleep on their horde, and they like to make the horde visible).

And remember, this guy is CR 12.  He's not an apex predator in D&D lands.  He's mid tier.  Equivalent to a cheetah in real life perhaps.

And for the record, Polar Bears dig pits to sleep in so as to hide themselves, despite being camouflaged apex predators.

JaronK

I'm not saying there isn't going to be a ledge somewhere in the lair. I'm saying it is going to be large enough that the dragon has some room to move around and get comfortable, so that it doesn't feel that is it eternally sleeping at the edge of a cliff (which will call for quite a bit of space). Further, why is it seeking out ambush points on its bed? Ar you expecting to start hunting all the things in your inaccessible lair? And while it might not necessarily the highest CR creature in D&D, it is likely going to be the biggest in its environment (unless there is a notably worse predator in the frozen tundra, in which case by all means explain). It's not going to be running into Beholders, its not even going to be running into Cyrohydras. The occasional Frost Worm aside, (which won't be that much trouble to just avoid) which is unlikely to be able to access its lair anyways, the only other thing the dragon needs to worry about in this territory are any potential Frost Giants, which are going to have a hell of a time getting into its lair, it will hear long before they can get to its sleeping area, and which it is more than capable of taking down in groups of two or so at a time (Jarls aside (they are, fortunately, rather uncommon)).
Also, the Swordsage isn't just some guy that is "kinda fast". The main advantage he has here is that he can teleport 50ft as a move action. So take the following scenario: The Swordsage teleports 50ft into the dragon's blind sense area. The dragon is now just aware of the Swordsage, so the Surprise Round commences. The swordsage activates Sudden Leap to clear the rest of the distance (you would still get a swift action on your Surprise Round unless otherwise noted), starting the attack routine I previously documented. The Dragon is, on average, dead before it can react. Not because the Dragon hasn't prepared for a known threat from a natural predator, but because the 12th level swordsage is something the dragon has not encountered before, and could therefore be expected to be about as prepared for facing him as any random civilian is for an alien invasion.

[Twilightwyrm]

I'm not saying they are going to be doing bucket loads of damage every round, but if you seriously think Acid Fog, which only deals up to 12 damage every round, is worth using at this level, being able to deal 0-30 damage every round to people within a 20ft. burst is going to be worth something. So unless the party, and everything you own, is completely invulnerable to fire, can you think of a reason why the Pit Fiend would not employ it every round?

If you seriously think I'm using Acid Fog because of the damage. I guess it makes sense that you also think that a quickened fireball every round is worth mentioning at level 20.
Yeah, it's gonna use it every round sure, but it's just not gonna be much use.

Unless you are using Acid Fog for the Solid Fog effect which, while effective, doesn't really take it out of the fight, and makes targeting it rather...problematic.

Alright, I shall address a few problems I see with the spells you mention, in order of the spells you mentioned. Don't get me wrong, these are all good spells, but are potentially hindered in this case:

1. Ray of Exhaustion- Save makes this fatigued, failing to credibly take out the target before it has the ability to at least paralyze you for trying. Allows SR.
2. Vampire Touch- Direct damage. Kind of missing the point of the discussion. Assuming you get reach extension this is, at max, 90 hp worth of damage at level 20, within 30ft. May put you out of reach of Power Word Stun. Won't help when you have hold person cast on you in the next round. Will help soften it up a bit though. Allows SR.
3. Enervation- Max 6 negative levels, weakening it maybe, but not taking it out of commission. Allows SR. Also, puts you within 35 feet of the Pit Fiend. (Notably, only reduced HP by 30, not putting the Pit Fiend within range for Symbol of Death)
4. Black Tentacles- Max grapple for this level is +28. Pit Fiend has +35 to grapple, and can either fly or simply move out of the area on the next round (assuming teleportation has been neutralized, requiring the aid of other party members)
5. Wave of Fatigue- Might be helpful if quickened and coupled with Ray of Exhaustion. Strong debuff, bot not enough to neutralize the threat, if both pass SR.
6. Cloudkill- Creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell. Pit Fiend is immune to poison.
7. Acid Fog- Max 12 acid damage per round. Only 2 to a Pit Fiend, which has Acid Resistance 10.
8. Wave of Exhaustion- Good debuff, but not really enough to neutralize the Pit Fiend. It will help soften it up a bit, which it quite helpful, but doesn't neutralize it. Also, allows SR.
9. Geas/Quest- Unholy Aura negates, and has a 10 minute casting time. Great if you have already neutralized the Pit Fiend. Not so great otherwise. As for unwilling help recruitment, must first find said help. Also, the Leadership feat tends to make the ability to recruit help somewhat...common. (I will grant it can be abused, but you are likely to get some...intervention if you attempt to do so) Also, allows SR.
10. Symbol of Death- A commonly misunderstood tactic. Could potentially kill 3000 hp worth of creatures, only if every one of those creatures has HP under 150 (actually says it skips over any creature with upwards of 150 hp). Also, Fortitude and SR negate. (Not to mention you would be spending 10,000 gp in the process, a bit expensive for a one off kill) Further, unless you plan on giving whatever you put the symbol on fire immunity as well, the Pit Fiend will probably destroy it, thereby destroying all the symbols, before you can sufficiently debuff it to get it effected. Allows SR.
11. Energy Drain- Kind of a luck in terms of its debuffing ability. On average it will net you 5 negative levels, but min is 2, and max is 8. In terms of averages, you are probably better off using a maxed empowered enervation, unless you didn't feel like taking five feats just to sap 6 negative levels with said spell. Still, potentially a bit debuff, and good assuming teleportation has been neutralized. Also, allows SR. (Also only subtracts 40 hp from the Pit Fiend's total)

Ok, counter your issues.
SR, SR is regarded as a minor obstacle, most mages have one or more ways of getting around it. Assuming a 20th level character does not is just silly.
You could use a Twinned, Empowered Enervation, which is a 9th level spell (or 7 with Arcane Thesis, 5 With Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic, Twin Ray can be gained from a Rod, to keep this a level 4/5(without practical) spell). That deals 3d4 negative level damage (2d4+50% is pretty much 3d4), or 7.5 on average.
Symbol Of Death, ah yeah, the 5000gp price is a killer, this is an unsound tactic. However, you could just put the symbols on something made of stone, which is pretty hard destroying with a fireball.
Black Tentacles. This spell is Uncapped, there's a variety of builds that abuse this. (Also RAW I think you can take Kobold Endurance to increase the potency of it by +4)
So all the exhaustion tricks still stand, and the Enervation does too.
An Empowered, Repeating shivering touch (or a quickened followed by a normal one, or a Maximized (through rod) empowered one) also paralyzes the Pit Fiend Outright, which gives it only one fireball and one Peristent image to weasle itself out of getting it's head split open with a Scythe.

Pit fiends aren't that Powerful CR20 Mobs though, dragons and Balors are IMO much more powerful, as soon as you've got that pesky Teleportation out of hand Pit Fiends are pretty easy getting down.

Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Arcane Mastery aside, what other ways are you going to reliable penetrate SR?
So Enervation is actually more powerful, and a potentially devastating tactic. (Another reason not to use Energy Drain) On average it will probably only net you a rather angry Mass Hold Person or (if you haven't hit it with vampire Touch yet) Power Word Stun. But at max this will, admittedly, hurt a lot, to the point that Summoning other fiends to cover its escape is probably its best option.
As for shivering touch, funny though about SLAs is that they are, unless otherwise noted, purely mental actions. So realistically, everything it has as a SLA is still fully usable while paralyzed. (Could end is a rather funny stalemate though, if the summoned devils are already taken care of...)
I'm not saying Pit Fiends are the best CR 20 has to offer. Hell, Balors would be significantly more difficult. (Dragons are much easier to take out of commission with Shivering Touch) I am saying, however, that a tier 3 spell caster is going to have more trouble taking one down than a Swordsage. (Probably the same with the Balor, though noticeably less so with any of the Dragons. Shivering Touch really is an indisputably effective Dragon killer.) And I won't bring the Tarrasque in here, since that is going to be difficult for most any character.

[ninjarabbit]

Humans routinely use watchdogs to guard their houses when they're asleep or not around (like at work) and to alert their humans if someone is coming in the dog's territory. It wouldn't be unreasonable for the white dragon to have some sort of pets to watch his lair while he's asleep or out hunting, like winter wolves or arctic kobolds.

[JaronK]

I'm not saying there isn't going to be a ledge somewhere in the lair. I'm saying it is going to be large enough that the dragon has some room to move around and get comfortable, so that it doesn't feel that is it eternally sleeping at the edge of a cliff (which will call for quite a bit of space).

Aren't dragons generally depicted as sleeping curled up like a cat, resting on the treasure pile (which really isn't that big)?  As such, I'd imagine the space they'd like to sleep in would be only a little bigger than their curled up form (which is smaller than their stretched out walking form).  And we're talking about a climbing flier.  Almost all flying creatures and almost all climbing creatures enjoy sleeping near long drops (usually high in a tree) so why do you think a dragon that's capable of flight and climbing wouldn't do that same thing?

I'm not seeing why you think a dragon like this wouldn't want to sleep in a nice enclosed space near a cliff.  That sounds perfect for this sort of creature.

Further, why is it seeking out ambush points on its bed? Ar you expecting to start hunting all the things in your inaccessible lair?

I'm thinking that this creature thinks in terms of ambushing, and would thus want to sleep somewhere where it's safe from ambush.  Furthermore, White Dragons are indeed called out in Draconomicon as setting up ambush points in their lairs, for defense.

And while it might not necessarily the highest CR creature in D&D, it is likely going to be the biggest in its environment (unless there is a notably worse predator in the frozen tundra, in which case by all means explain).

There's a ton of nasty critters that a White Dragon wouldn't want to deal with that live in cold environments.  I don't see why it wouldn't have to deal with the occasional Cryohydra (which can be protected against precisely by being up high) or PC raiding party or anything along those lines. There's LOTS of things above CR 12.  Plus, evil dragons fight for territory all the time (see MM1 pg 70), which means White Dragons are used to fighting other White Dragons, who are actively trying to ambush and attack each other.  And Frost Giants do regularly attack them to kill them for food and armor and to capture them as guards, so they're a regularly hunted species (see page 78, MM1).

Also, the Swordsage isn't just some guy that is "kinda fast". The main advantage he has here is that he can teleport 50ft as a move action. So take the following scenario: The Swordsage teleports 50ft into the dragon's blind sense area. The dragon is now just aware of the Swordsage, so the Surprise Round commences.

We're assuming the Swordsage is traveling around via teleports?  Okay, that's reasonably fair, but if he's on his ledge the teleport brought the Swordsage to somewhere in line of sight of somewhere outside the door, so the Swordsage is still a good 60' from the dragon (again, this is very basic, just a ledge about 50'-60' up from the door, above it).

The swordsage activates Sudden Leap to clear the rest of the distance (you would still get a swift action on your Surprise Round unless otherwise noted), starting the attack routine I previously documented.

Swordsage shouldn't be close enough at this point (teleporting through the area is nice for avoiding traps, but leaves you without a teleport when you get there).

The Dragon is, on average, dead before it can react. Not because the Dragon hasn't prepared for a known threat from a natural predator, but because the 12th level swordsage is something the dragon has not encountered before, and could therefore be expected to be about as prepared for facing him as any random civilian is for an alien invasion.

There's lots of teleporting bad guys out there that are a lot scarier than a Swordsage 12.  If the Dragon can't handle something this simple, he probably wouldn't have lived this long.  Again, just being on a high ledge would have spoiled this whole thing.  More reasonable would be to say that the Swordsage sneaks into the room, detecting the dragon above him just as the dragon's Blindsense spots the Swordsage.  Surprise round (roll init).  If the Swordsage wins, he can teleport to the dragon but he's got nothing to stand on (the Dragon's curled up on the ledge) which would be an issue if the Swordsage doesn't have Dance of the Spider up.  If the Dragon wins, he can jump on the Swordsage with a Crush attack or use some similar attack. Really, you do need Darkstalker if you want to ambush a dragon in his lair.

But just to bring home the point on how these dragons think and behave:  

MM1:  "It prefers to fight on the wing, staying out of reach until it has worn down the enemy with ranged attacks."
"Dragons like to make beds of their hoards, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies."
"White dragons prefer sudden assaults, swooping down from aloft or bursting from beneath water, snow, or ice."
Draconomicon:  "the whites are wise enough to avoid the more powerful red dragons.  Red dragons tend to consider white dragons unworthy opponents and are usually content to let a white dragon neighbor skulk out of sight (and out of mind).
"White dragons' lairs are usually icy caves and deep subterranean chambers... Dungeon-dwelling white dragons prefer cool areas and often lurk near water, where they can hide and hunt."
"It would be a mistake to consider a white dragon a stupid creature.  Older white dragons are at least as intelligent as humans, and even younger ones are much smarter than predatory animals.  Though not known for their foresight, white dragons prove cunning when hunting or defending their lairs and territories.  White dragons know all the best ambush spots for miles areound their lairs, and they are cleve enough to pick out targets and concentrate attacks until one foe falls, then move onto the next foe."

So, to be clear, this is a creature that's "cunning" when "defending their lairs" and that prefers sudden assaults from above or below, but is preyed upon by Frost Giants, other White Dragons, and potentially by Red Dragons.  And we're really claiming such a creature would sleep somewhere where you could just teleport gank it easily, when a simple ledge above a door would protect them?

JaronK

[awaken DM golem]

Maybe Golems are inedible.

You just made me think of an ex-gf ... curses ...  ... 

[X-Codes]

Maybe Golems are inedible.

You just made me think of an ex-gf ... curses ...  ... 

We all have ex-gfs, except possibly the females on the forum.  Do the rest of us a favor and don't complain about yours.