Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152351 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2011, 07:41:55 PM »
Maybe we should have a face off between overly themed builds... SorO's war build vs a nice ninja build.  Unfortuntely the Ninja Spy requires evasion which the other ninjas don't give, but a Ring of Evasion should make it possible to do something like Rokugan Ninja 8/Complete Adventurer Ninja 2/Ninja Spy 10.

Wait!  Maybe we can then bring in Swashbuckler 5/Dread Pirate 10/Scarlet Corsair 5... not sure if that quite works, without looking at the books.  But then it's super pirate vs war vs ninja!

And maybe a Death Master/Death's Chosen for the most emo build ever?

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2011, 07:43:56 PM »
I vote Dirgesinger for emo build.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2011, 08:13:38 PM »
None claimed that the Adept could kill the Dragon in a single round.  Not even the stealthy adept which defeated (but not killed) the dragon in a single round did that.

Ah, my bad. Defeat then in a round, or kill easily in more rounds.
Now...since the swordsage is a tier higher there should be one build or another that can show how to surpass these many achievements of the adept?

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2011, 08:17:09 PM »
None claimed that the Adept could kill the Dragon in a single round.  Not even the stealthy adept which defeated (but not killed) the dragon in a single round did that.

Ah, my bad. Defeat then in a round, or kill easily in more rounds.
Now...since the swordsage is a tier higher there should be one build or another that can show how to surpass these many achievements of the adept?

- Giacomo

Such a build doesn't matter how many rounds it takes, as long as the dragon doesn't kill it faster, just as an aside. 
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2011, 08:22:54 PM »
Such a build doesn't matter how many rounds it takes, as long as the dragon doesn't kill it faster, just as an aside. 

Depends. In a group, the faster one can overcome an opponent, the less potential damage is done (also there may be a time limit to defeat an opponent in an adventure).
But yes, defeating the dragon in the first place is the decisive thing.  :D

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2011, 08:28:17 PM »
I am too tired to go through 50 pages of thread.

Can someone remind me how Giacomo's monk killed the dragon?

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2011, 08:30:32 PM »
I am too tired to go through 50 pages of thread.

Can someone remind me how Giacomo's monk killed the dragon?
the dragon commited suicide in a futile attempt to end the pointless debate.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »
I am too tired to go through 50 pages of thread.

Can someone remind me how Giacomo's monk killed the dragon?
Got stuck in its throat.
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2011, 08:42:40 PM »
Or it could be that as a T3 class the Swordsage would be expected to be a significant contributor in more types of situations, including ones where undead minions are less appropriate.  Since, you know, Tiers aren't about solo play in the first place, but rather your ability to deal with common situations in D&D.

But an obvious build would be one that uses Leaping Dragon Stance + Sudden Leap to trigger Battle Jump as a Swift action, which if you can get pounce (yes, this would require a Lion Totem Barbarian dip) means you can do two full attacks in a single round, both of which give all Power Attack bonuses.  Yeah, it's dipping so it's not perfect for this, but a simple Human Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 11 with Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Adaptive Style and Leap Attack using a Valorous [Insert two handed weapon here] could be devastating.  +54 damage from power attack alone per attack, with four attacks (two at full bonus).  Plus he could use Counter Charge to avoid getting attacked himself, and that's always nice.  That's just a basic thought, of course, but it could drop the dragon in a single round (remember, all damage is tripled from Valorous + Battle Jump).  And if it doesn't quite work, Moment of Alacrity gives you another round to finish the job.

You can also do things like Shadow Jaunt down hallways (all Swordsages could do this, no dip required of course) to avoid traps, or use Stone Dragon maneuvers to pound through walls (but that does make noise).  Dance of the Spider can let you climb along ceilings and other areas that are less likely to be trapped (after all, the dragon has to go in and out without triggering his own traps, and White Dragons like climbing around, so you're more likely to be going a safer way by being on the ceiling).

Another option (no dips here either) would be to have Darkstalker on a stealth based Swordsage (Whispergnome with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, for example?) and make good use of Stalker in the Night.  As long as your hide checks are high enough and as long as you can move fast enough (base speed 40' here, you might need more) you can strike over and over from the shadows.  Assassin's Stance would be wise for this sort of sneaky build, though Giant Killing Style is also handy.

Ballista Throw could be fun to use (it's a touch attack that leaves the enemy prone where you want, which is great when pulling a speedy guy into the party), and remember that it can be dex based.  And of course there's always Desert Wind, which gives you stuff like Searing Blade (all your attacks do 2d6+12 fire damage for the round), Searing Charge (you gain a fly speed with perfect maneuverability and charge, doing an extra 5d6 fire damage), Leaping Flame (teleport next to an enemy, up to 100 feet, and can still attack), Ring of Fire (everyone in an area takes 12d6 Fire Damage), and so on.  These are of course really nasty against White Dragons, but then again I generally don't use such maneuvers because most enemies are likely to be resistant to fire.

But yeah, there's a LOT of possibilities for this dragon thing.  As to the others... imagine how easy a Swordsage based around Stalker in the Night could take out all the field commanders of this Orcish army.

As for how Giacomo's Monk took out the dragon?  It randomly got the surprise round (despite the Dragon auto detecting it), was able to charge (despite the obvious difficult terrain from being in an ice filled cavern), and somehow killed the dragon despite the fact that the dragon could easily just strafe kill it (among other options).

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2011, 08:43:09 PM »
I am too tired to go through 50 pages of thread.

Can someone remind me how Giacomo's monk killed the dragon?
The dragon died from laughter.

Quote
As for how Giacomo's Monk took out the dragon?  It randomly got the surprise round (despite the Dragon auto detecting it), was able to charge (despite the obvious difficult terrain from being in an ice filled cavern), and somehow killed the dragon despite the fact that the dragon could easily just strafe kill it (among other options).
Sounds reasonable.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2011, 10:24:07 PM »
Or it could be that as a T3 class the Swordsage would be expected to be a significant contributor in more types of situations, including ones where undead minions are less appropriate.  Since, you know, Tiers aren't about solo play in the first place, but rather your ability to deal with common situations in D&D.

Strangely, if tiers aren't about solo play, you have so far been remarkably relaxed when I mentioned the problems a group has with a necromantic adept
- with carnexes debuffing the party (in debatable frequency; both each have 60ft diameter effect),
- zombies with single actions slowing down the party,
- non-intelligent undead without skills preventing any stealth of the group
- huge zombies preventing the group form entering/moving around many (humanoid-sized) adventuring areas - or having to be left behind
- undead minions preventing the group from settings like city adventures - or having to be left behind.

But let us now see what your swordsage ideas (unfortunately not yet a detailed build) can do to surpass the adept's might...

But an obvious build would be one that uses Leaping Dragon Stance + Sudden Leap to trigger Battle Jump as a Swift action, which if you can get pounce (yes, this would require a Lion Totem Barbarian dip) means you can do two full attacks in a single round, both of which give all Power Attack bonuses.  Yeah, it's dipping so it's not perfect for this, but a simple Human Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 11 with Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Adaptive Style and Leap Attack using a Valorous [Insert two handed weapon here] could be devastating.  +54 damage from power attack alone per attack, with four attacks (two at full bonus).  Plus he could use Counter Charge to avoid getting attacked himself, and that's always nice.  That's just a basic thought, of course, but it could drop the dragon in a single round (remember, all damage is tripled from Valorous + Battle Jump).  And if it doesn't quite work, Moment of Alacrity gives you another round to finish the job.

Probably multi-class builds for class comparisons make no sense... ;) but the barbarian is not necessary I guess, since you can get the pouncing charge strike. Still, I am not quite sure whether you can get two full round attacks in a single round with just the pounce effect and battle jump/sudden jump. Usually, you cannot move after a charge - and the sudden jump is a move. (If you could, the monk would also be able to get it, btw!  ;) )
At least, the swordsage is similar to the adept in that he'll not be able to detect the hiding dragon before combat starts (no spot as class skill, odd as it may seem for the swordsage). Unfortunately for the swordsage, though, for charging you need to be able to see the opponent - so at the beginning of combat that may not be possible. The attack bonus in that charge for a 25pt buy swordsage may also be an issue - and with a tanked AC after the charge there may be a problem in case the dragon can still counterattack fully with full PA of its own.
So maybe another idea for the swordsage to fight the dragon? (moment of alacrity could be part of that, that is an excellent maneuver).

You can also do things like Shadow Jaunt down hallways (all Swordsages could do this, no dip required of course) to avoid traps, or use Stone Dragon maneuvers to pound through walls (but that does make noise).  Dance of the Spider can let you climb along ceilings and other areas that are less likely to be trapped (after all, the dragon has to go in and out without triggering his own traps, and White Dragons like climbing around, so you're more likely to be going a safer way by being on the ceiling).

Well, shadow jaunt is kind of meh. You need line of effect AND sight and can "teleport" then 50ft every other round (recovering it with a full round concentration). The swordsage has no way of detecting the traps, so he would just randomly teleport into them and trigger them, anyway. Stone dragon is useful, but in case the unarmed variant swordsage gets the powerful unarmed strike damage progression of the monk, it plays less of a role. Dance of a spider is good, better in most cases than shadow jaunt.
Still, probably the adept with his minions triggering traps and spells like lightning bolt tearing down obstacles is ahead here.

Another option (no dips here either) would be to have Darkstalker on a stealth based Swordsage (Whispergnome with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, for example?) and make good use of Stalker in the Night.  As long as your hide checks are high enough and as long as you can move fast enough (base speed 40' here, you might need more) you can strike over and over from the shadows.  Assassin's Stance would be wise for this sort of sneaky build, though Giant Killing Style is also handy.

Good idea, but probably the hide skill of the swordsage getting so close to the dragon will not be high enough (+24 spot). Then, combat reflexes and AoO kick in and will likely ruin any kind of attack. And I guess that the swordsage might need more than 40ft speed to avoid the dragon's counterattack that might pinpoint him with listen checks as well.

Ballista Throw could be fun to use (it's a touch attack that leaves the enemy prone where you want, which is great when pulling a speedy guy into the party), and remember that it can be dex based.  And of course there's always Desert Wind, which gives you stuff like Searing Blade (all your attacks do 2d6+12 fire damage for the round), Searing Charge (you gain a fly speed with perfect maneuverability and charge, doing an extra 5d6 fire damage), Leaping Flame (teleport next to an enemy, up to 100 feet, and can still attack), Ring of Fire (everyone in an area takes 12d6 Fire Damage), and so on.  These are of course really nasty against White Dragons, but then again I generally don't use such maneuvers because most enemies are likely to be resistant to fire.

The number of maneuvers you mention are starting to exceed the 12th level swordsage's repertoire of readied maneuvers (or even known?). Maybe you could post a 12th level build? Note though, that the adept has better fire spells that also work at a range.
So far I do not see the swordsage doing better than the many great powers that you and others attributed to the adept in the adept vs monk thread. But I'll wait and see.

But yeah, there's a LOT of possibilities for this dragon thing.  As to the others... imagine how easy a Swordsage based around Stalker in the Night could take out all the field commanders of this Orcish army.

Whereas a monk with total concealment up all the time and doing 200 dmg before most orcs could even react of course likely will fail more often than a swordsage doing that once per encounter. Hm.
Still...anyhow again the adept's chicken wights are way ahead. And as for the slave resistance movement...the adept's domination tactic also has to be surpassed by the swordsage somehow.

As for how Giacomo's Monk took out the dragon?  It randomly got the surprise round (despite the Dragon auto detecting it), was able to charge (despite the obvious difficult terrain from being in an ice filled cavern), and somehow killed the dragon despite the fact that the dragon could easily just strafe kill it (among other options).

JaronK

Yes, that appears to be the impression (you are not alone in it, given the other usual mocking content-free comments). Others that actually read my build and subsequent posts detailing monk class abilities may think ... that the surprise round only got lost the moment the dragon got a perfect blindsense-shaped cave (since then the monk's superior movement skill no longer granted him the ability to charge outside blindsense range of the dragon - darkstalker feat last time I checked can be taken by all classes) ... that the monk had a flying item and also even the step of the wind stance to charge across difficult ground ... that the monk had 60% miss chance vs the dragon unlike other contenders helpless vs a dragon's surprise snatch/grapple attack ... well...

But this is not the focus of this swordsage vs adept thread!
Let's see everyone how the swordsage takes on the might of the adept!

JaronK provided some first good ideas, but I think we are not in equal-or-even-higher-tier-than-adept territory yet! :)

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2011, 10:34:57 PM »
Sorry G, your reverse trolling isn't doing it for me. Try harder, I'm sure you can do better then that.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2011, 10:50:36 PM »
Will someone please ask Giacomo point-blank to restate his strategy for dealing with the challenge that he himself proposed since he appears to be running away from me like the 5th Panzer Army after the Ardennes-Alsace campaign?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:56:13 PM by Solo »

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2011, 10:52:51 PM »
Strangely, if tiers aren't about solo play, you have so far been remarkably relaxed when I mentioned the problems a group has with a necromantic adept
A single character or build =/= the whole class. We are not at the stage of discussing a specific swordsage build yet, but a tier discussion is about the class as a whole and can thus be done.

The number of maneuvers you mention are starting to exceed the 12th level swordsage's repertoire of readied maneuvers (or even known?)
They were examples of how a swordsage could be useful, not a list of things to take in a build.

darkstalker feat last time I checked can be taken by all classes
But you didn't.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2011, 10:58:55 PM »
Good idea, but probably the hide skill of the swordsage getting so close to the dragon will not be high enough (+24 spot). Then, combat reflexes and AoO kick in and will likely ruin any kind of attack.
Well, let's use the example swordsage given. 12 ranks, the +4 racial bonus, and the +8 from the Dark template gives you 24 right there, before you consider any other magic items, Dexterity bonuses, maneuvers, or anything else.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2011, 11:02:58 PM »
Blindsight.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2011, 11:03:30 PM »
Good idea, but probably the hide skill of the swordsage getting so close to the dragon will not be high enough (+24 spot). Then, combat reflexes and AoO kick in and will likely ruin any kind of attack.
Well, let's use the example swordsage given. 12 ranks, the +4 racial bonus, and the +8 from the Dark template gives you 24 right there, before you consider any other magic items, Dexterity bonuses, maneuvers, or anything else.
Forgot the +4 size bonus, making it 28 before considering Dex bonus or magic items.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2011, 11:18:40 PM »
Maybe we should have a face off between overly themed builds... SorO's war build vs a nice ninja build.  Unfortuntely the Ninja Spy requires evasion which the other ninjas don't give, but a Ring of Evasion should make it possible to do something like Rokugan Ninja 8/Complete Adventurer Ninja 2/Ninja Spy 10.

Wait!  Maybe we can then bring in Swashbuckler 5/Dread Pirate 10/Scarlet Corsair 5... not sure if that quite works, without looking at the books.  But then it's super pirate vs war vs ninja!

And maybe a Death Master/Death's Chosen for the most emo build ever?
Oooh some one had a bear build, like a were-bear anomorphic bear bear warrior riding a bear or something. It would be perfect!

*sniffs* I smell a new handbook for someone to make...

Others that actually read my build and subsequent posts detailing monk class abilities may think
By your build you mean version 4.6: stole a bunch of ideas for SorO and still came up short?

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Desecrated Crafted Necropoliton ? Monk 12
HP: 12d12+48 (131 HP).
Speed: 80ft. = 30 (base) + 10 (graft) + 10 (nimble bones) + 30 (enhancement)
AC 4 (-1 dex. +2 monk, +2 nimble, -9 heedless), touch 2, flat 3 & 60% Miss Chance & Total-Concealment.
Attack: +17 & +24 = + 9 (monk) + 6 (str) + 1 (enhancement) + 3 (shadow hand) - 2 (large) & + 2 (concealment) + 2 (flanking) + 2 (moral, if they tried to attack you) + 1 (soloing)
Damage: 2 attacks, 4d8+135, +1d6 cold, +1d4 piercing, +3d6 sneak attack, +1d6 evil, +1d6 solo (avg 353).
Where 135 = +36 (9 pa + x2 thf + 100% leap attack) + 1 (enhance) + 6 (str) + 2 moral) * (battle jump+valor+sandals of the tiger's leap)
Feats: Battle JumpF, Skill ProdigyF, Improved Natural Attack1st, Power AttackB, Improved Bull RushB, Martial Study(distracting ember)3rd, Leap Attack6th, TrackB, Shock Trooper9th, Snap Kick12th.
Saves: +11 & immune to most crap, +10 & 20% chance to ignore it, +14 & can't target me anyway.
Skills: Still too damn lazy, um UMD +X, Balance +5, Tumble +10ish, Diplo +X, Autohypno +X, Move +X?
Equipment (60,903 spent, wbl is 88,000): Periapt of Wisdom +2 (2,000), +1 Valorous Shadow Hand Large Scorpion Kama (24,302), +1 Vengeful Bracers of Armor (4,000), Monk's Belt (13,000), Sandals of the Tiger's Leap (3,500), Ectoplasmic Fist (4,000), Marbles x 10 (1), Wand of Guidance of the Avatar x20 (1,800), Masterwork Tool x6 (300), Stone Spikes (4,000), Legacy Fast Leg (4,000+legacy).
Legacy: Solitary Warrior, ?, ?, Sneak Attack +1d6, Maneuver(shadow blade technique), Maneuver(assassin's stance).

All though it's not finished and dummy me forgot Vengeful +2 Moral bonus doesn't work on undead (immune to all mind affecting stuff for some reason). Also I totally forgot Cat's Paws have a Feather Fall clause in them which prevents Battle Jumping. Still, I'm not aiming to murder silly dragons with my Monk. I'm looking at the Big T. And if not for his poor hit chance vs AC 32, he could win. The trick is charge and fall into the ground via Blink forcing Mr T to sunder though 3~4 foot of stone or so before it can attack you forcing it to use Ready Action Single Attack vs your 60% miss chance. I'll call it done with I've got enough of a win chance to claim it can pummel the biggest baddest melee monster in CORE into little tiny chunks of meat to feed to commoners as a lottery game (see who explodes from a regenerating Terrasqua!).
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2011, 11:20:47 PM »
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Fair enough. Looking at the dragons though, most have the same spot/listen mod, so whichever is lower of your hide/move silently will generally determine when combat starts. And even if the dragon doesn't know your *exact* square, knowing the general direction = breath in the face.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2011, 01:00:01 AM »
Or it could be that as a T3 class the Swordsage would be expected to be a significant contributor in more types of situations, including ones where undead minions are less appropriate.  Since, you know, Tiers aren't about solo play in the first place, but rather your ability to deal with common situations in D&D.

Strangely, if tiers aren't about solo play, you have so far been remarkably relaxed when I mentioned the problems a group has with a necromantic adept

I commented on all your objections, which were silly.

Quote
- with carnexes debuffing the party (in debatable frequency; both each have 60ft diameter effect),

This is roughly like saying Glitterdust is a bad spell because it will hit your party.  Quite simply, you either position people correctly, or better yet just make the entire party immune (Necropolitan is easiest, especially with a Necromancer already in the party).

Quote
- zombies with single actions slowing down the party,

By level 12, you teleport places anyway, so who cares?  Nor does movement speed matter much out of combat, and in combat the party isn't slowed down.

Quote
- non-intelligent undead without skills preventing any stealth of the group

When you really need stealth, you can either leave them behind or make use of extradimensional space.  Heck, if flight will get you past whatever you wanted to sneak by, the flying dragon actually makes that easier.

Quote
- huge zombies preventing the group form entering/moving around many (humanoid-sized) adventuring areas - or having to be left behind

There's a Shrink Collar you can buy in A&EG to handle this if it comes up significantly.  Makes any creature small.  Note this also fixes your stealth questions, since you can now fit everything in extradimensional space.

Quote
- undead minions preventing the group from settings like city adventures - or having to be left behind.

See: Collar + Extradimensional space if this is a major issue.  If it's not (cause your major fights are all while out adventuring) don't worry about it.

But let us now see what your swordsage ideas (unfortunately not yet a detailed build) can do to surpass the adept's might...

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Probably multi-class builds for class comparisons make no sense... ;) but the barbarian is not necessary I guess, since you can get the pouncing charge strike. Still, I am not quite sure whether you can get two full round attacks in a single round with just the pounce effect and battle jump/sudden jump. Usually, you cannot move after a charge - and the sudden jump is a move. (If you could, the monk would also be able to get it, btw!  ;) )

Sudden Leap lets you jump as a swift action.  More importantly, you have to jump really high to make it work... the stance makes this work, because of the +10ft bonus to jump distance.  Just jump up.  Monk can't.

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At least, the swordsage is similar to the adept in that he'll not be able to detect the hiding dragon before combat starts (no spot as class skill, odd as it may seem for the swordsage).

Hunter's Stance would let him roughly know where the dragon is, which is better than your Monk.  And it's pretty much the only first level stance I'd ever take. 

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Unfortunately for the swordsage, though, for charging you need to be able to see the opponent - so at the beginning of combat that may not be possible.

You need to look at the maneuvers more.  They let you do things like teleport next to the opponent, or jump before charging, making the Swordsage far better at charging that a Monk.

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The attack bonus in that charge for a 25pt buy swordsage may also be an issue - and with a tanked AC after the charge there may be a problem in case the dragon can still counterattack fully with full PA of its own.

Lucky the Swordsage can make touch attacks then, eh?

Also, I miscalculated the damage. It's much higher.  Power Attack alone with Leap Attack gives +36 damage with a two hander at BAB 9, and then the damage is tripled by Valorous + Battle Jump to +108 per attack.  Even just Pouncing Charge + Sudden Leap gives three charging attacks, no multiclassing necessary.  With multiclassing you'd have Whirling Frenzy and you'd be pouncing on both charges, so that's actually 6 attacks.  Instant kill.

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Well, shadow jaunt is kind of meh. You need line of effect AND sight and can "teleport" then 50ft every other round (recovering it with a full round concentration). The swordsage has no way of detecting the traps, so he would just randomly teleport into them and trigger them, anyway. Stone dragon is useful, but in case the unarmed variant swordsage gets the powerful unarmed strike damage progression of the monk, it plays less of a role. Dance of a spider is good, better in most cases than shadow jaunt.
Still, probably the adept with his minions triggering traps and spells like lightning bolt tearing down obstacles is ahead here.

Shadow Jaunting still skips 11/12ths of the spaces you'd otherwise be in, making it VERY unlikely to hit any given trap.  And he has a chance of not alerting anyone, which the Monk (and Adept) lacks.

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Good idea, but probably the hide skill of the swordsage getting so close to the dragon will not be high enough (+24 spot). Then, combat reflexes and AoO kick in and will likely ruin any kind of attack. And I guess that the swordsage might need more than 40ft speed to avoid the dragon's counterattack that might pinpoint him with listen checks as well.

There's no counter attack due to the dragon being flat footed and not ever seeing the Swordsage.  Also, as a Dark Whispergnome (thanks to the collar) he's got quite a significant hide score.

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The number of maneuvers you mention are starting to exceed the 12th level swordsage's repertoire of readied maneuvers (or even known?). Maybe you could post a 12th level build? Note though, that the adept has better fire spells that also work at a range.
So far I do not see the swordsage doing better than the many great powers that you and others attributed to the adept in the adept vs monk thread. But I'll wait and see.

I'm just throwing out options.  A fire swordsage, a stealth/ninja swordsage, and a charger swordsage.  You could combine two of those if you wanted, but these are just showing some of the basic options.

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Whereas a monk with total concealment up all the time and doing 200 dmg before most orcs could even react of course likely will fail more often than a swordsage doing that once per encounter. Hm.

He kills one, alerting everyone, and then arrows rain down and kill him.  Game over.  The Swordsage, unlike the Monk, is never seen at all, and can thus do this right in front of all the enemies.

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Still...anyhow again the adept's chicken wights are way ahead. And as for the slave resistance movement...the adept's domination tactic also has to be surpassed by the swordsage somehow.

No, it really doesn't.  That's not how this works.

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Yes, that appears to be the impression (you are not alone in it, given the other usual mocking content-free comments). Others that actually read my build and subsequent posts detailing monk class abilities may think ... that the surprise round only got lost the moment the dragon got a perfect blindsense-shaped cave (since then the monk's superior movement skill no longer granted him the ability to charge outside blindsense range of the dragon - darkstalker feat last time I checked can be taken by all classes) ... that the monk had a flying item and also even the step of the wind stance to charge across difficult ground ... that the monk had 60% miss chance vs the dragon unlike other contenders helpless vs a dragon's surprise snatch/grapple attack ... well...

Ah yes, the Monk was alone (hence being easy to take out with a single grapple, unlike the Adept) and you were shocked that a smart dragon might build his house according to his own abilities.  Truly shocking. 

@Skydragon:  Yeah, make sure he doesn't know that!  But yes, you need both Move Silently and Hide to be quite significant for this to work.  Still, a Dark Whispergnome gets you much of the way there... it's by no means perfect, but he's far from a liability in combat.

JaronK