Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152355 times)

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Twilightwyrm

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #520 on: September 02, 2011, 01:28:19 AM »
See, I take issue with this. The Adept spell list, by the DMG, is OVERALL lacking in comparisons to a) other casters of its level and b) in overall better power comparison to the Swordsage's capabilities. My point is, Animate Dead shenanigans aside (since it is only a 4th level spell, and thus potentially available in wand form, meaning a properly equipped CW Samurai, or hell a Commoner, with a proper bonus in UMD can duplicate this effect, by the same level). This is actually a fairly significant flaw, as the adept only gets up to 5th level spells, all of which can be produced in wand form, to the same effect as previously stated. Granted you probably cannot beat the adept in terms of versatility of spell selection, but given the preparation we all seem to be assuming, this is a moot point. Therefore, with just that given in the DMG, the adept really only beats the swordsage in two areas: Polymorph and Healing. And as for polymorph, a properly made swordsage can generally out damage whatever the adept's happened to polymorph into. As for healing...well it alone is helpful, but not enough to bump it above the swordsage by any stretch of the imagination. The conclusion? In order to be competitive with the swordsage, the adept does actually need those other (possibly limited) source books. (Eberron, for instance, probably being an entirely different campaign setting) And in this case, they are a bit of a strain on credibility.

I'm glad you take issue with my statements, because I take issue with your statements! Ha ha!   :lmao

It seems that this has come full circle, because IIRC, when the Monk wanted to use partially charged wands and UMD he was given a mighty gigantic middle finger, but it's A OKAY for Complete Warrior Samurai and Commoner to just jump out from nowhere, WANDS ABLAZIN!  I love how you mention "Properly Equipped" like the Adept can't do what they are doing, only, the Adept doesn't have to spend a feat, skill points or points into Charisma just to have the chance to fail to activate a wand and lose a charge.  Granted, I understand that once you're very high level you auto-make the check with little difficulty; so what?  We're talking primarily about 12th level for this thread.

Somehow, the Complete Warrior Samurai has been summoned into this discussion (along with the Commoner) for what reason(s) I do not know.  Neither of them are pertinent to the discussion of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Swordsage and Adept.

Again, you artificially limit the Adept to core only, while the Swordsage automatically gets core+ToB - or in mathematical terms:

Player 1: Core+Splat
Player 2: Core

Why does Player 1 get a Splat and Player 2 does not?  Completely arbitrary.  As others have said, all books are available online at a click so there is no real "shortage" of availability in that sense - merely what the DM restricts.  It's arbitrary to unequally restrict the Adept and not the Swordsage, especially when the Swordsage is supposedly overall better Tiered than the Adept.  If the game was supposedly "Core Only" how could Player 1 "sneak" his character in?  So in a fair world, the Adept is getting another book.  The Adept is going to get a Domain or Exalted/Corrupt spells or access to Necrotic Cyst or something else making them that much better; to assume otherwise is not only unrealistic but simply unfair DM nerfing/hosing via math.

As you said, you think the Adept trumps the Swordsage in versatility and I think that's very clear and definitely agree.  I also think that in the very early levels, and very late levels, a Straight Single Classed Swordsage has an easier time than a Straight Single Classed Adept - but those middle levels are kind of what we're talking about regarding the *specific* level 12 challenges. 

I also have said before, and will continue to say, that these non-multiclassed, non-PrC characters don't seem to be very common in any of the games I have played in, seen, or heard about, both on these boards and elsewhere.  So the entire situation is a little bit stretched and artificial.

I see no (legitimate) reason why people took issue with the monk UMDing wands. So I fail to see how this particular element pertains to the discussion. I say properly equipped to imply that the character actually has access to wands of Animate Dead, not to imply that the adept is improperly equipped. But let's do a bit of math here to back up my point. 12th level character = 15 max ranks, or 7 max cross-class ranks. A 16 to CHA brings the bonus to +10 on its own, NOT taking into account synergy, skill focus, feats, etc. And I bring up the commoner and CW Samurai to make the point that ANYONE who wants to can abuse animate dead, making including it as a perk of the class rather useless, due to how non-specific it is.
The reason one must assume splat+core in the case of the swordsage is because the swordsage DOES NOT EXIST without the splatbook. that is NOT completely arbitrary, it is completely necessary. If you are playing core only, how powerful the swordsage is is a moot point, considering you cannot play one in the first place. The same thing does for the Archivist vs. Wizard, the Dread Necro vs. Wizard,  Beguiler vs. Bard/Wizard and any number of comparisons that involve any class that is not core. I could understand your point if we were talking, say, Wizard vs. Cleric, except that the cleric advocates were insisting on using Complete Divine for access to Divine Metamagic or extra avaliable domains, but this is not the case. Therefore, unless you can find some way to compare the swordsage and the adept in a core-only context, what books are available to both is obsolete. (Additionally, there is a good case to be made that while Tome of Battle is indeed non-core, Eberron is an entirely different campaign setting, and therefore can understandably be said to be off limits than a non-campaign setting specific book. I'd say the same thing is someone's build relied on an Ancestor feat from Oriental Adventures).
I did not say the adept trumps the swordsage in versatility. I said it has two advantages over the swordsage: polymorph and healing. The Swordsage has any number of advantages over the Adept, up to an including: teleportation (albeit short range), the ability to actually turn incorporeal (thereby bypassing innumerable traps and walls), higher damage potential, stealth, skill selection, consistency (a rather large factor), and probably more that are not immediately coming to mind.
So given all these things, I can't really say a single class adept is more potent than a single class swordsage at most levels. I'm sure there are specific levels that may violate this, but overall? I have yet to see conclusive evidence.
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Twilightwyrm

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #521 on: September 02, 2011, 01:35:02 AM »
If your DM disallows EBCS, commoner is also better than artificer. Is this a testiment to the commoners strength?

Clearly  :rollseyes

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.  Would that be a strawman?

No it is an analogy, and, as it happens, has everything to do with what you are saying. The point is that you cannot compare classes without access to the books the classes are in. Hence how a commoner is better than a class in a book that is disallowed.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
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snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #522 on: September 02, 2011, 01:38:52 AM »
Main reason why people had a beef with the Monk UMD'ing wands was because the Monk isn't anywhere near as good as most other classes at the task, yet Giaccomo was trying to put it forth as a strength of the class.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #523 on: September 02, 2011, 01:47:06 AM »
Strength and quantity of undead pets depends on caster level, as well.  The wand is unlikely to have boost feats for the spell, too.  You can barely use Animate Dead with a wand, let alone abuse it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:48:55 AM by weenog »
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Twilightwyrm

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #524 on: September 02, 2011, 01:51:49 AM »
Main reason why people had a beef with the Monk UMD'ing wands was because the Monk isn't anywhere near as good as most other classes at the task, yet Giaccomo was trying to put it forth as a strength of the class.

That's entirely fair, and it is by no means a strength. What it does do, however, is make most of what any class with only 4-5 possible levels of spells non-unique (albeit lacking some consistency and versatility in doing so). Think of it this way: say we compare the rogue and the barbarian: Both classes can gain some trap disarming ability (the rogue from core, the barbarian from Dungeonscape): Objectively, one cannot say that taking care of traps is (strictly speaking) much of a strength for the barbarian. However, when comparing the barbarian and rogue, the fact that the barbarian is also capable, with some work, of trap finding and disarming (or more accurately destroying in the barbarian's case), does make the rogue's ability a bit non-specific for the purposes of comparing the two.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
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zook1shoe

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #525 on: September 02, 2011, 02:26:58 AM »
Wizard's First Rule: People Are Stupid.

*grins*

I would love a campaign based around that series!

Personally I'm for all sources are open.

Agreed, but the problem I see with that sort of thing is, allowing all sources enhances the core classes much more than, say the Swordsage or Truenamer.

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #526 on: September 02, 2011, 02:34:39 AM »
Personally I'm for all sources are open.

Agreed, but the problem I see with that sort of thing is, allowing all sources enhances the core classes much more than, say the Swordsage or Truenamer.

This might have something to do with how the team learned what was balanced and/or nicely but not uberly powerful over the course of 3.5.  Core gets the most love by virtue of almost every other splatbook adding onto it.  That's just how the design ended up since WotC figured rightly that most people would be more familiar with the Core classes than anything else.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #527 on: September 02, 2011, 03:09:20 AM »
Strength and quantity of undead pets depends on caster level, as well.  The wand is unlikely to have boost feats for the spell, too.  You can barely use Animate Dead with a wand, let alone abuse it.
Actually Wands have no CL cap, it's possible to buy a CL20 Wand of Animate Dead for 60,000gp which means you could control five Fourteen-Headed Pryodras created in a Desecrated area. Sure you may not have burnt four or five feat slots for a total improvement of like +1 to CR, but you got an awesome army of killers for next to nothing while becoming a badass your self.

Sure it just takes another Wand to even be able to heal them and you can't really support them with Crowd Control like a real Arcane Caster can. The point is you can control them, just like you can Diplomacy up an army of gods, just like you can have a StP Erudite Cohort, just like you can Dominate a target for 20 days per charge (dominate person is a 4th level bard spell) and you can do all of those things on any character with one rank in UMD and throwing gold at the encounter. There is also the fact that in order to accumulate anything you need to operate within a campaign, which is in turn operated by the DM and not your ability to claim you killed and collected multiple templated highly advanced creatures whom have at least your CR or better. And finally, the huge glaring fact you didn't do crap, the pet did, which is kinda of a big deal when you initially say X > Z then changes things halfway though to X+Y > Z. Thus I hate pokemon comments in vs threads and consider them near valueless.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

TenaciousJ

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #528 on: September 02, 2011, 06:35:59 AM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Yes, ignorant DMs are a problem, hence why they are not generally assumed, as you make a point of. But assuming your DM meets the reasonable person standard (so to speak), which you have to assume when talking about Illusion, Divination, Enchantment or hell pretty much any spells with slightly vague descriptions, the consideration of what the DM says the outcome is MUST factor into the discussion, principally because what the DM rules happens will directly effect whether or not such a plan will produce the multiple save or die effect first mentioned. See the issue?

Let's approach from a different angle.  Can you agree that a spellcaster has other means of achieving the impromptu pit trap effect?  How does a swordsage manage to accomplish what amounts to an impromptu pit trap?

That depends on the spell caster. In this case, I am NOT talking about Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, etc (just for clarification). Of the tier 3 casters, only warmages and possibly beguilers can pull this off. And even the, they're ability to do this is so diminished, you'd get one or two enemies (max), completely ignoring for a moment that YOU NEED A PIT to pull this off. The Dread Necro is out of the question. And as it happens, while the swordsage cannot actually trap said pit, getting the enemies into the pit (the point of the pit trap) is a simple matter of a Shadow Hand stance and a Setting Sun maneuver. Meaning the swordsage, assuming there is a pit, can actually pull off a no save just die effect. Does that answer your question?

You're comparing a Swordsage's ability to do that to one monster to a caster's ability to do it to many monsters.  The Swordsage needs a pit too, or the throw maneuver is just a crappy damage standard action.  No save?  There's an opposed roll for the trip attempt.  That misses the point of no-save actions.

EDIT: You're taking a shotgun-blast approach to the argument.  Maybe you should just argue against the Adept and not the tier 3+ spellcasters.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 06:40:00 AM by TenaciousJ »

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #529 on: September 02, 2011, 03:13:36 PM »
Wands, scrolls, and staves of Animate Dead are, while legal, entirely questionable on the cost basis, since the material component cost must be brought into it.  Animate dead is different from most spells in that the matieral component cost is variable.  To abuse a wand as Soro is suggesting (I'll tone it down to four,  10-headed hydras, since even four of anything more means you lose control of some), you need to buy a wand costing 72,500 gp.  That's pretty expensive for a consumable.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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zook1shoe

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #530 on: September 02, 2011, 04:05:33 PM »
Strength and quantity of undead pets depends on caster level, as well.  The wand is unlikely to have boost feats for the spell, too.  You can barely use Animate Dead with a wand, let alone abuse it.
Actually Wands have no CL cap, it's possible to buy a CL20 Wand of Animate Dead for 60,000gp which means you could control five Fourteen-Headed Pryodras created in a Desecrated area. Sure you may not have burnt four or five feat slots for a total improvement of like +1 to CR, but you got an awesome army of killers for next to nothing while becoming a badass your self.

Sure it just takes another Wand to even be able to heal them and you can't really support them with Crowd Control like a real Arcane Caster can. The point is you can control them, just like you can Diplomacy up an army of gods, just like you can have a StP Erudite Cohort, just like you can Dominate a target for 20 days per charge (dominate person is a 4th level bard spell) and you can do all of those things on any character with one rank in UMD and throwing gold at the encounter. There is also the fact that in order to accumulate anything you need to operate within a campaign, which is in turn operated by the DM and not your ability to claim you killed and collected multiple templated highly advanced creatures whom have at least your CR or better. And finally, the huge glaring fact you didn't do crap, the pet did, which is kinda of a big deal when you initially say X > Z then changes things halfway though to X+Y > Z. Thus I hate pokemon comments in vs threads and consider them near valueless.


Yeah I think we should avoid easily duplicated effects like animate dead tricks.

Besides those trick, what sort things can a core +1 source adept do that is more amazing that a Swordsage, in several situations that puts it on par or better than a Swordsage?

Midnight_v

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #531 on: September 02, 2011, 04:16:18 PM »
   How does one go about winning one of these debates, exactly?
Often I find that its just arguing for the sake of arguing. . .
*Sigh*
I mean there's no context for any of this, so how do you know when you've won, or even made a strong point?

I do think this. Umd + "I have enough" gp, is a thing far more powerful than most classes. So generally, if you want to use that skill to turn your class into something else, whatever your turned your class into is "better" than your class.
So Necromancer > Monk etc...  its an honesty issue to me, when I hear someone say something like "Monks can be NECROMANCERS TOO!" I realize why it is so many people used to try to use "final destination" rules in these arguments. Its because it becomes impossible to judge the merits of a class when people argue outliers like umd, diplomacy etc... as being reasonable inclusions to the debate.

[spoiler]After reading:
Quote
I see no (legitimate) reason why people took issue with the monk UMDing wands
Well the key part is legitimate, there isn't it... people did though, like crazy. Again I imagine its because that makes umd stronger than anything else your class features do, and people recognize that and go "Doesn't seem legit" I do rember that crazy thread though.
and
Quote
What it does do, however, is make most of what any class with only 4-5 possible levels of spells non-unique (albeit lacking some consistency and versatility in doing so)
Mostly this, I'm just wondering how strong a caster can be built using umd at this point.
Roughly an adept? Greater than an adept?
If thats the game that needs to be played, how good a caster can you make with wands? How good a gish?[/spoiler]
Thats relavant because its seems like umd is the one thing bad classes seem to want to stand on when they have it.
Then again, I'm afb and I'm not sure the Swordsage even has umd.

Also did people agree to core +1 source? I missed that...
I'm thinking like what solo said in his guide, I'd prc out to get full, or near full casting.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #532 on: September 02, 2011, 05:07:21 PM »
That's pretty expensive for a consumable.
Is it? Try wording it as: It is only 1,450gp per ten-headed hydra.

Besides those trick, what sort things can a core +1 source adept do that is more amazing that a Swordsage, in several situations that puts it on par or better than a Swordsage?
The Finger Dart Adapt was the only one presented (which btw I praised), it is dependent on the one spell and it could only cast it once or twice a day, but it does have an I win button not based on proxy. I'm not sure what they have outside of that...

How does one go about winning one of these debates, exactly?
No one can decide on how to measure thus there is no true win. I personally try to break things into math.

Well the key part is legitimate, there isn't it... people did though, like crazy. Again I imagine its because that makes umd stronger than anything else your class features do, and people recognize that and go "Doesn't seem legit" I do rember that crazy thread though.
Yep, it's like people recognizing your undead are better than your class features you and wanted to use the same cheap comments. UMD is a cheap rebuttal to a cheap tactic. However, no Monk or Swordsage build that has been presented relies on casting off wands, it remains as a "well I can do it too" point to them. At least we're consistent :p
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #533 on: September 02, 2011, 05:22:46 PM »
Quote
Yep, it's like people recognizing your undead are better than your class features you and wanted to use the same cheap comments
And they would be lies...
  The undead actually DON'T replace anything else the Caster might be adding to the situation.
While it replaces the MAIN thing the Warrior is doing.
Quote
UMD is a cheap rebuttal to a cheap tactic
:twitch
Necromancy's iconic usage is a cheap tactic? *scoff*

Quote
"well I can do it too" point to them. At least we're consistent

point to you...
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zook1shoe

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #534 on: September 02, 2011, 06:08:32 PM »
Also did people agree to core +1 source? I missed that...

Not officially, but to make thing more even. I'm giving the adept the core+1 to minimze the variables.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #535 on: September 02, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »
UMD + partial charged Wands + Magic Mart +

a backstory of somebody blew their gp on a wand that they used and now don't think they need anymore
... or ... Custom Magic Items (!!) ... or ... well Diplomancy works every time susposedly.


That is the problem.
Divine Mind 1 can do a reasonable hack of a Diplomancer.
Really ?!

Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #536 on: September 02, 2011, 06:41:45 PM »
Adept + Craft Wondrous Item + trap rules = a game I like playing sometimes,

better than simply hurting your enemies 6 ways from Tuesday.

X-Codes

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #537 on: September 02, 2011, 07:41:01 PM »
Actually, something just came to me.  I wonder what tier a theoretical class would be if it were structured as such:

HD, Saves, BAB: As Monk
Proficiencies: Monk + Ninja + Light armor
Skills: As Ninja + Monk Class Skills
Class Features: All of both classes, combined, except as follows-

You don't gain a +2 to Will saves while you have use of any Ki abilities (like Ninjas normally do).

You gain only one instance of the Unarmored AC bonus, and it applies while using Light armor, as well.

Non-redundant ACFs replace any other redundant abilities at the later levels, such as Ray Deflection replacing the Ninja's Evasion.  No Invisible Fist, because that's redundant with the Ninja's Ki abilities.

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #538 on: September 02, 2011, 07:46:44 PM »
So what you want is pretty close to an Ascetic Stalker with a touch of Swordsage? http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-130-ascetic-stalker.html

I'd rank the combo at least Tier 4, possibly Tier 3 since it is nicely versatile.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:55:11 PM by Jackinthegreen »

X-Codes

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #539 on: September 02, 2011, 07:50:27 PM »
So what you want is pretty close to an Ascetic Stalker with a touch of Swordsage? http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-130-ascetic-stalker.html
Ascetic Stalker is only so much.  It doesn't stack the levels for the purposes of what Ki abilities you get, your Flurry of Blows, or your Sudden Strike damage.