Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152336 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #480 on: August 31, 2011, 05:21:18 AM »
Did someone say monkeys and Kung Fu?

Too throw poo or not to throw poo, that is the question.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #481 on: August 31, 2011, 10:22:37 AM »
Did someone say monkeys and Kung Fu?

Too throw poo or not to throw poo, that is the question.

And just by that, I became a Monk Fan-boy.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Jackinthegreen

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #482 on: August 31, 2011, 01:40:28 PM »
I just notices that you can pick up the nice 7th level dark moon disciple sub level as a wild monk. Same with invisible fist.  Which would actually make for a really nice character. Not really related to the ongoing debate but amusing.

Yeah, that actually seems pretty good.

A Blinking, Invisible, Hiding Legendary Ape attacks you. WTF!?
Donkey Kong just appeared out of nowhere and bitch slapped you!

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #483 on: August 31, 2011, 02:36:18 PM »
Did someone say monkeys and Kung Fu?

Too throw poo or not to throw poo, that is the question.

And just by that, I became a Monk Fan-boy.

Really? I once did a monkey king monk build for a core rules only setting over at GitP...will see whether I can still find the link...:)

More on your most recent post later.


- Giacomo

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #484 on: August 31, 2011, 02:55:00 PM »
Although people like the Monkey King seem like poster boys for TOB, and possibly Jade Phoenix Mage. 

I understand one of the criticisms of TOB to be that it was too unrealistic and over the top for the usual D&D, Western Fantasy fare.  The Monkey King, by contrast, is on the extreme edge of wuxia.  He makes "Crouching Tiger" look like a goddamned sedate documentary. 

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #485 on: August 31, 2011, 03:07:11 PM »
Although people like the Monkey King seem like poster boys for TOB, and possibly Jade Phoenix Mage. 

I understand one of the criticisms of TOB to be that it was too unrealistic and over the top for the usual D&D, Western Fantasy fare.  The Monkey King, by contrast, is on the extreme edge of wuxia.  He makes "Crouching Tiger" look like a goddamned sedate documentary. 
Consider the fact that he was the template for Goku, and...
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

TenaciousJ

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #486 on: August 31, 2011, 03:07:28 PM »
How can anything be too over the top and unrealistic in a setting where wizards stop time and create their own planes?

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #487 on: August 31, 2011, 03:14:43 PM »
How can anything be too over the top and unrealistic in a setting where wizards stop time and create their own planes?
Because non-casters can't have nice things.

DUH.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Shiki

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Mindraped
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #488 on: August 31, 2011, 03:19:37 PM »
How can anything be too over the top and unrealistic in a setting where wizards stop time and create their own planes?
Because non-casters can't have nice things.

DUH.

I know you're not serious here, but I don't really get how some people really seem to think like this...
"An ally of truth."

Soundtrack of the week:
Kagamine Rin - Antichlorobenzene (ft. Kagamine Ren)

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #489 on: August 31, 2011, 03:25:25 PM »
How can anything be too over the top and unrealistic in a setting where wizards stop time and create their own planes?
Because non-casters can't have nice things.

DUH.

I know you're not serious here, but I don't really get how some people really seem to think like this...
And yet they do.

It's a senseless double-standard. If magic is involved, sure, you're supposed to be able to do anything. But they can't see how, in a world where you can bench-press a small moon or run half the speed of light without any magical assistance whatsoever, mundane (that is, muggle) people can do extraordinary things.

Wizard's First Rule: People Are Stupid.

They don't think.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 03:31:14 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Twilightwyrm

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 61
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #490 on: September 01, 2011, 09:09:36 AM »
Actually, by the RAW, creatures only get their save to not fall into the pit of death upon stepping on an illusory bridge after they step on the illusory bridge.  Afterwards, others witnessing the event would automatically realize the bridge is fake.  So, I'll add another spell: Fog Cloud.  Now they don't see anyone falling through the bridge, they don't realize the bridge is fake, and they don't automatically realize that it's fake unless they stop and inspect the bridge to figure out why some people are suddenly missing.

Of course, this is RAW.  Illusions are limited by what your DM will let you get away with, which is still probably better than anything an armored monkey can pull off unless your DM hates Wizards.

I would tend to disagree for a couple of reasons. First is that none of the tier 3 spell casters, adepts included, can cast all the spells you have suggested using (aside from the illusion of the bridge itself). First, Overland Flight is right out, except in the possible case of the Warmage, (a la advanced learning), who in turn normally lacks access to the necessary illusion spells. But even assuming he was able to obtain both Overland Flight and an Illusion spell capable of making said bridge, he STILL lacks access to conjuration spells, hence lacking access to Fog Cloud. And he gets closest to this out of all of them. Take the adept for instance. Even with Ebbron domain shenanigans, he is still limited to ONE domain. Considering he lacks access to Fog Cloud, Overland Flight, AND a suitable illusion spell for making the image of a bridge, considering that he only has substitutes in the form of Air Walk and Gaseous Form (Air Domain), considering he only has access to Fog Cloud from the Water Domain, and considering Illusion based domains are his only manner of gaining such a spell, this combination is impossible for him. The Beguiler and Dread Necromancer cannot even get this far. Therefore it seems to me, that you are perhaps misapplying the capabilities of upper tier spell casters to the spell casters of the Swordsage's comparative tier.
Second, as already mentioned, this tactics would not work, since people tend to scream when they fall to their death.
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 09:11:11 AM by Twilightwyrm »
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

Twilightwyrm

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 61
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #491 on: September 01, 2011, 09:38:50 AM »
Where did this whole idea of "Just because the Adept has more sources to choose stuff from he somehow, automatically I might add, *needs* to use all of these sources to remain competent?"  More *options* means better; not worse.  How did the Adept's clearly superior list of "options" somehow become a liability?  I do not follow.

The Adept does not *need* a Domain to function; it just makes it even easier.
The Adept does not *need* BoVD+BoED spells to function; it just makes it even easier.  And so on.

Only the Finger Darts build basically said "Without this one source I'm fucked."  But (quite obviously I might add) you would not use that build if you could not use that source - so pointing that out as a "weakness" is a 'huh'?  The basic Animate Dead Adept seems more than competent with *core only* sources; adding more just makes him that much better - not that much more "dependent" on other sources.

See, I take issue with this. The Adept spell list, by the DMG, is OVERALL lacking in comparisons to a) other casters of its level and b) in overall better power comparison to the Swordsage's capabilities. My point is, Animate Dead shenanigans aside (since it is only a 4th level spell, and thus potentially available in wand form, meaning a properly equipped CW Samurai, or hell a Commoner, with a proper bonus in UMD can duplicate this effect, by the same level). This is actually a fairly significant flaw, as the adept only gets up to 5th level spells, all of which can be produced in wand form, to the same effect as previously stated. Granted you probably cannot beat the adept in terms of versatility of spell selection, but given the preparation we all seem to be assuming, this is a moot point. Therefore, with just that given in the DMG, the adept really only beats the swordsage in two areas: Polymorph and Healing. And as for polymorph, a properly made swordsage can generally out damage whatever the adept's happened to polymorph into. As for healing...well it alone is helpful, but not enough to bump it above the swordsage by any stretch of the imagination. The conclusion? In order to be competitive with the swordsage, the adept does actually need those other (possibly limited) source books. (Eberron, for instance, probably being an entirely different campaign setting) And in this case, they are a bit of a strain on credibility.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

TenaciousJ

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #492 on: September 01, 2011, 09:51:00 AM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Twilightwyrm

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 61
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #493 on: September 01, 2011, 10:14:02 AM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Yes, ignorant DMs are a problem, hence why they are not generally assumed, as you make a point of. But assuming your DM meets the reasonable person standard (so to speak), which you have to assume when talking about Illusion, Divination, Enchantment or hell pretty much any spells with slightly vague descriptions, the consideration of what the DM says the outcome is MUST factor into the discussion, principally because what the DM rules happens will directly effect whether or not such a plan will produce the multiple save or die effect first mentioned. See the issue?
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #494 on: September 01, 2011, 10:33:49 AM »
Falling people get reflex saves (this is basically a pit trap) and tend to scream. Also you can't conceal the whole bridge or it's pointless unless you started out with an actual bridge and took a chunk out. I kinda doubt it's an arbitrary number of enemies, without the use of at least four spells or three spells and a good bit of expense.

TenaciousJ

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #495 on: September 01, 2011, 11:13:24 AM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Yes, ignorant DMs are a problem, hence why they are not generally assumed, as you make a point of. But assuming your DM meets the reasonable person standard (so to speak), which you have to assume when talking about Illusion, Divination, Enchantment or hell pretty much any spells with slightly vague descriptions, the consideration of what the DM says the outcome is MUST factor into the discussion, principally because what the DM rules happens will directly effect whether or not such a plan will produce the multiple save or die effect first mentioned. See the issue?

Let's approach from a different angle.  Can you agree that a spellcaster has other means of achieving the impromptu pit trap effect?  How does a swordsage manage to accomplish what amounts to an impromptu pit trap?

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #496 on: September 01, 2011, 12:17:24 PM »
And no, this does not require a DM that hates wizards, or illusions. Just one that doesn't love letting wizards/illusions kill arbitrarily large numbers of the enemies they throw at you. So, again, not seeing how the swordsage is less effective in this situation.

It sets a bad precedent to let arbitrary DM decisions affect a tier discussion.  Ignorant DMs shit all over all kinds of options that are not the most powerful things out there.  Vow of Poverty, psionics, incarnum, and tome of battle come to mind.  Why should such decisions affect the discussion?

Yes, ignorant DMs are a problem, hence why they are not generally assumed, as you make a point of. But assuming your DM meets the reasonable person standard (so to speak), which you have to assume when talking about Illusion, Divination, Enchantment or hell pretty much any spells with slightly vague descriptions, the consideration of what the DM says the outcome is MUST factor into the discussion, principally because what the DM rules happens will directly effect whether or not such a plan will produce the multiple save or die effect first mentioned. See the issue?

Let's approach from a different angle.  Can you agree that a spellcaster has other means of achieving the impromptu pit trap effect?  How does a swordsage manage to accomplish what amounts to an impromptu pit trap?

He takes ranks in Disguise to appear to be a bridgebuilder and then uses his ranks in Craft (Pit Trap) in order to build a boobytrapped bridge.  Duh.

/trollface
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #497 on: September 01, 2011, 02:04:14 PM »
Some of these are more similar than others, but options the swordsage has to get a similar result include:

- Force someone to make a reflex save or take damage.
- Throw someone off a cliff.
- In a marsh/desert/so forth, walk over quicksand to mislead your enemy into thinking the terrain is safe.
- Destroy the bridge underneath your enemies. Easiest with a wooden bridge. (Break DC 20 or 60hp for a 10' by 10' section.)
- Force someone to save or be paralyzed / otherwise incapacitated for a duration.

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #498 on: September 01, 2011, 04:48:56 PM »
See, I take issue with this. The Adept spell list, by the DMG, is OVERALL lacking in comparisons to a) other casters of its level and b) in overall better power comparison to the Swordsage's capabilities. My point is, Animate Dead shenanigans aside (since it is only a 4th level spell, and thus potentially available in wand form, meaning a properly equipped CW Samurai, or hell a Commoner, with a proper bonus in UMD can duplicate this effect, by the same level). This is actually a fairly significant flaw, as the adept only gets up to 5th level spells, all of which can be produced in wand form, to the same effect as previously stated. Granted you probably cannot beat the adept in terms of versatility of spell selection, but given the preparation we all seem to be assuming, this is a moot point. Therefore, with just that given in the DMG, the adept really only beats the swordsage in two areas: Polymorph and Healing. And as for polymorph, a properly made swordsage can generally out damage whatever the adept's happened to polymorph into. As for healing...well it alone is helpful, but not enough to bump it above the swordsage by any stretch of the imagination. The conclusion? In order to be competitive with the swordsage, the adept does actually need those other (possibly limited) source books. (Eberron, for instance, probably being an entirely different campaign setting) And in this case, they are a bit of a strain on credibility.

I'm glad you take issue with my statements, because I take issue with your statements! Ha ha!   :lmao

It seems that this has come full circle, because IIRC, when the Monk wanted to use partially charged wands and UMD he was given a mighty gigantic middle finger, but it's A OKAY for Complete Warrior Samurai and Commoner to just jump out from nowhere, WANDS ABLAZIN!  I love how you mention "Properly Equipped" like the Adept can't do what they are doing, only, the Adept doesn't have to spend a feat, skill points or points into Charisma just to have the chance to fail to activate a wand and lose a charge.  Granted, I understand that once you're very high level you auto-make the check with little difficulty; so what?  We're talking primarily about 12th level for this thread.

Somehow, the Complete Warrior Samurai has been summoned into this discussion (along with the Commoner) for what reason(s) I do not know.  Neither of them are pertinent to the discussion of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Swordsage and Adept.

Again, you artificially limit the Adept to core only, while the Swordsage automatically gets core+ToB - or in mathematical terms:

Player 1: Core+Splat
Player 2: Core

Why does Player 1 get a Splat and Player 2 does not?  Completely arbitrary.  As others have said, all books are available online at a click so there is no real "shortage" of availability in that sense - merely what the DM restricts.  It's arbitrary to unequally restrict the Adept and not the Swordsage, especially when the Swordsage is supposedly overall better Tiered than the Adept.  If the game was supposedly "Core Only" how could Player 1 "sneak" his character in?  So in a fair world, the Adept is getting another book.  The Adept is going to get a Domain or Exalted/Corrupt spells or access to Necrotic Cyst or something else making them that much better; to assume otherwise is not only unrealistic but simply unfair DM nerfing/hosing via math.

As you said, you think the Adept trumps the Swordsage in versatility and I think that's very clear and definitely agree.  I also think that in the very early levels, and very late levels, a Straight Single Classed Swordsage has an easier time than a Straight Single Classed Adept - but those middle levels are kind of what we're talking about regarding the *specific* level 12 challenges. 

I also have said before, and will continue to say, that these non-multiclassed, non-PrC characters don't seem to be very common in any of the games I have played in, seen, or heard about, both on these boards and elsewhere.  So the entire situation is a little bit stretched and artificial.

Halinn

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #499 on: September 01, 2011, 05:12:04 PM »
Again, you artificially limit the Adept to core only, while the Swordsage automatically gets core+ToB - or in mathematical terms:

Player 1: Core+Splat
Player 2: Core

Why does Player 1 get a Splat and Player 2 does not?  Completely arbitrary.

If the limit is 'as few books used as possible', this is the minimum. It is not very arbitrary to allow the book containing the class one is playing in a discussion about that class. How about we remove a book to make things even, then. I suggest removing the Monster Manual for the Swordsage (the adept needs it for his/her familiar).