Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept

[Nachofan99]

Actually, let me bring this up again (as someone else brought this up as well, I cannot recall who).

Is the Adept in some kind of "Sweet spot" of their progression around level 12, where they have all of their spells and getting more levels does not really do much more for them? Meanwhile, the Swordsage gets better and better Maneuvers, and more skill points.  At lower levels where the Adept does not have an "entourage", and at much higher levels where the Adept has much stronger Maneuvers, maybe that is why "overall" the Adept is supposed to be a step lower than the SS?

@JaronK:  You say the Adept has weaknesses, and I agree they do.  What are some of them?  Running out of spells per day?  Poor Saves?  Limited skill points?  Adepts have magic, and magic is the bees knees of D&D 3.5 so they simply have more tricks due to that fact alone than most other classes. However, just because they have more possible tricks, does that mean that they necessarily have more "effective" tricks?  Basically, every build is showing off that Adepts can do 1 thing well (Tier 4) and are semi-limited at that point.  However, it seems that magic is good enough such that you are "automatically" near tier 3.

@Mixster:  I agree that the Dread Necro and Beguiler are clearly better than then Adept, but honestly, aren't both the Dread Necro and Beguiler (And Warblade and Crusader) clearly all better than the Swordsage as well?  What "can't" the Adept do?  Basically asking that question to JaronK as well.  What are the Adepts weaknesses that are so fundamental they are "high T4" instead of "low T3"?

[Shiki]

Another Adept idea be:

As mentioned some pages back; take Improved Familiar for a Mirror Mephit. If it is argued that you cannot take the feat (since, you can't, at least normally), be a Loredrake Cheesewrought Kobold w/ Practiced Spellcaster and now you can get one. Hm..

Magic is awesome.

[JaronK]

Is the Adept in some kind of "Sweet spot" of their progression around level 12, where they have all of their spells and getting more levels does not really do much more for them? Meanwhile, the Swordsage gets better and better Maneuvers, and more skill points.  At lower levels where the Adept does not have an "entourage", and at much higher levels where the Adept has much stronger Maneuvers, maybe that is why "overall" the Adept is supposed to be a step lower than the SS?

Before they get Animate Dead, yes, they're a good bit weaker.  Plus, before they have level 4 spells they can't use the Necrotic Dominate thing either.  So yeah, we're pretty much looking at a T4 in the middle of their best time... and being solid when things are going your way is pretty standard T4.  That said, an Adept could at least use wands of Animate Dead at lower levels, which would help.

@JaronK:  You say the Adept has weaknesses, and I agree they do.  What are some of them?  Running out of spells per day?  Poor Saves?  Limited skill points?  Adepts have magic, and magic is the bees knees of D&D 3.5 so they simply have more tricks due to that fact alone than most other classes. However, just because they have more possible tricks, does that mean that they necessarily have more "effective" tricks?  Basically, every build is showing off that Adepts can do 1 thing well (Tier 4) and are semi-limited at that point.  However, it seems that magic is good enough such that you are "automatically" near tier 3.

Other than scorching ray and web, they don't have many good lower level spells.  So that hurts... they're kind of like the Healer (but not that bad off) just due to having magic but not having the flexibility in magic that they'd want.  Corrupt and Sanctified spells help them a LOT of course.  And while they can usually get a few solid spells (Domain access, yay!) they just don't have the kind of built in "sure I have a tool for that" flexibility you expect from a T3 class.  Basically, they've got a few good spells.  Not Sorcerer level "I have a few spells, but they're the best spells allowed in the campaign" but a few good, solid spells.  That's great... it gives them a lot.  But it leaves gaps in their abilities.

The slowed spell progression really hurts... compare them to a Factotum, who also gets a slower spell progression but still has higher level spells than they do much of the time, and has a TON of class features as well (and far more spell variety).  Comparing an Adept to a Factotum really shows you that those two classes shouldn't be on the same tier.

JaronK

[Nachofan99]

Hey I agree that the Factotum is also much better than the Adept - but isn't the Factotum also much better than the Swordsage?  SS appears to be the red-headed step-child of T3.

[JaronK]

I dunno, I've never had problems with a Swordsage in a T3 group, they always seem to keep up just fine.  I think people are underestimating the constant teleportation and stealth abilities combined with impressive striking and guaranteed saves.  Though I admit, the Swordsage benefits a lot from dipping around with other classes.

JaronK

[Nachofan99]

That is another thing that, unfortunately, we cannot exactly bring into a "Ceteris Paribus" discussion of the relative strengths of the classes when combined with other classes.  I know of very few groups playing 3.5 today that only have single classed, no-dips, and no PrC's Characters so our comparison is a little bit unrealistic.  At the same time, however,  to me Swordsage is a great class to dip - and that is exactly what I am doing and I know it; I am dipping SS. If SS were so great why wouldn't I stay in it longer?  I kind of feel the same way about Barbarian; super sweet ass dip, but I'm not taking more than 1 level; Barbarian isn't awesome, but Rage+Pounce sure as hell are and they sell the package.

I also agree that in my experiences I have not had SS perform poorly in T3ish groups, however, this thread has made me re-consider exactly how well they *did* match up, and I recall them being significantly worse than the rest of the group in one particular campaign.  Same rough player skill level and optimization levels, levels 8 and under.  Just did not do as well as the Warblade, Crusader or Dread Necromancer.

[snakeman830]

Well, it doesn't help that the Swordsage class features are just kinda "meh".  They get some nice manuvers, but most of the unique disciplines just don't compare with what they share with Warblades, and Iron Heart is just better than Desert Wind, no question.  Plus, Stance Mastery is flat-out better than Dual Boost (if Dual Boost wasn't limited in uses, this may change).

[Mixster]

I think swordsage strikes a decent balance of power and stealth that is required from a Tier 3 class, granted, he doesn't have the versatility of a Factotum, and the outright power of the warblade is not in his command. But the shadow hand maneuvers are still very good. Combined with the Tiger Claw Maneuvers, that have good flexibility from using the same weapons, a Swordsage can really do a lot of cool movement things. While still keeping up offensively with strikes.

IMO that's a solid tier 3, one build can fill many roles. But not so good as to totally surpass someone else building for it.

The Adept on the other hand is not good at level 1-6, where the Swordsage easily keeps up with the rest of the party. And 8th level maneuvers are also probably better than the 5th level spells the adept gets.

So without loads of extra material, as the Tier system assumes you are not using more than just core + whatever splatbook your class is in. + Perhaps one more splatbook, the Swordsage comes out ahead of the adept.

[Twilightwyrm]

The Adept is strong in some areas, but he does have weaknesses.  Undead are amazing in many scenarios, but useless in others, and in a lot of ways he's relying on humanoid enemies to dominate to fill in his weaknesses.  If those aren't available he might have problems.

Other that certain social situations, it's pretty rare that a Swordsage will have trouble in any campaign, really.  Also, I haven't seen anyone make a really solid stealth assassin Swordsage, which I feel is a really solid role for them (though admittedly I'd usually have a two level dip to round them out, usually Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1).

JaronK

Stealth Assassin Swordsage you say?

How about Swordsage 14/Assassin 6?

Granted the build is excessively simple, and you will have to buy cross-class ranks in some skills to qualify for Assassin, but the fire levels of Assassin (and a feat) give you access to extended Wraithstrike. If you then combine with with power attack and a Raging Mongoose + Time Stands still combo on the next round, you can get some pretty insane damage output. (Since, as noted so often with the warblade, touch attacks tend to hit their target). TWF is probably a must to get the most out of Raging Mongoose and your sneak attacking, but all this build actually requires is three or four (depending on whether or not you want Shadow Blade) feats. This also leaves you plenty of spell slots for the plethora of other handy Assassin spells. Granted Death Attack gets a low saving throw, due to the Swordsage's lack of dependence on a high Int score, but I'd say it is worth is in this particular case.

[Nachofan99]

The Adept on the other hand is not good at level 1-6, where the Swordsage easily keeps up with the rest of the party. And 8th level maneuvers are also probably better than the 5th level spells the adept gets.

So without loads of extra material, as the Tier system assumes you are not using more than just core + whatever splatbook your class is in. + Perhaps one more splatbook, the Swordsage comes out ahead of the adept.

Snipped for what I want.  I would agree that 8th level maneuvers are better than base DMG 5th level Adept spells.  As far as "without loads of extra material..." that's not fair at all.  

The Swordsage essentially has Tome of Battle and *no* other source-books.  (Sure, there are feats and items and so on elsewhere, but the BnB of SS = Maneuvers = 1 book)  Given that the ToB is the source-book for Initiators, compare that to the Spell Compendium that should be the go to source-book for spellcasters - which doesn't even have Adept spells.

Adepts get spells - and there are additional Adept spells in FAR more source-books. Heck, they even get an option to take a Domain. Lots of different Familiars with more sources. And so on.

To say 1 additional book is the limit seems vastly arbitrary and would favor the Swordsage very strongly.  That is not a function of "Swordsage is good" so much as "I'm not letting your Adept have nice things." If I was stuck with just ToB then I would opt for Warblade or Crusader in general, not SS.  I find that kind of telling.  I guess if my aim was "a sneaky initiator" and ALL I have access to was ToB, then I would be stuck with SS cause that's my only option.

Of course, I can see the general idea. "Without needing anything extra, the SS does sneaky initiator well."  But again, I go back to the whole artificiality of the situation.  Barely anyone is going to play a single classed Adept and barely anyone is going to play a single classed Swordsage (Sure, some people will.  Heck, if the campaign is lower level that can happen.  To level 12 though?  I would call that highly unusual from my experience.)  By the restrictions of the "challenge" you are essentially restricted from really optimizing a straight up Swordsage, whereas the Adept has just so many more options.

[lans]

I'm not sure if  the adept is really trouncing the SS, but its keeping up in most areas and surpassing it in some areas quite well. I'm starting to think the Domain Adept might actually edge into low tier 3

Domains are pretty awesome, and so is a familiar. However, the Adept simply can't be tier 3, that puts him in the same tier as Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, to which he is obviously inferior.

That's why I specified low tier 3. 

[JaronK]

Note that I don't with the tiers assume you ONLY have access to your books in core.  It's just the only thing I DO assume you have access to.  I start ranking things lower if you absolutely need specific of other books.  For example, the Adept could get Sanctified or Corrupt spells, but they can't have anything even vaguely like that if they don't have BoED or BoVD in play (and those books aren't super common).  Likewise, Domains are often not allowed for Adepts because the group might not even be playing with Eberron. 

But yes, it gets a little artificial if you say "no multiclassing ever" and yet at the same time if you multiclass a lot we start wondering which class is providing the power.  For casters who PrC out but maintain casting it's pretty clear where the power comes from (the class abilities are probably from the PrCs, the spells are from the base class), but that's tougher when you are a melee... is a Lion Totem Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 16 powerful because of those Warblade levels, or is Pounce the biggest source?  What about the Fighter levels, how relevant are they?

So that makes it harder.

JaronK

[Solo]

WRT WRT (With Regard To White Raven Tactics), even if it cannot be used on yourself, you are still giving someone else a 2 for 1 deal in the action economy, which is pretty good for the party.

If I chose to forgo WRT, I could have my swordsage pick up Gloom Razor again and one other combat feat. Hm, decisions decisions...

[Nachofan99]

You could WRT the Adept in your party who would easily kill the dragon for you!

I kid.  Obviously you won't take WRT but Gloom Razor+Feat is nothing to sneeze at.  What about Improved Initiative to virtually guarantee winning Initiative even vs a Nerveskittering dragon?

Actually let me restate that, with Improved Initiative you win initiative vs practically everything at that CR.

[Solo]

Indeed. Pity Spot's not a class skill, or I could pick up Quick Reconnoiter.

Nightshade, again.

[Mixster]

To say 1 additional book is the limit seems vastly arbitrary and would favor the Swordsage very strongly.  That is not a function of "Swordsage is good" so much as "I'm not letting your Adept have nice things." If I was stuck with just ToB then I would opt for Warblade or Crusader in general, not SS.  I find that kind of telling.  I guess if my aim was "a sneaky initiator" and ALL I have access to was ToB, then I would be stuck with SS cause that's my only option.

I agree that one splatbook is arbitrary, but then again, the Tier system also judges you on how many extra sources you need to work.
A higher number of sources equals a higher number of splats equals more assumptions about a game.

Swordsage needs nothing except ToB+Core, just like Druid needs nothing but Core, and that in itself is IMO a strong pointer of their power. I'd even say, that in Core only games, the Druid is in Tier 0, since the Wizard and cleric gets nerfed so hardly.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd even say, that in Core only games, the Druid is in Tier 0, since the Wizard and cleric gets nerfed so hardly.

Except that while the Wizard & Cleric lose more than the Druid for a Core only game, the Wizard and Cleric still sport minions (animate dead, charm/dominate monster, binding, gate), stock pile munitions (explosive runes, shrink item), break the action economy (time stop, contingency), enjoy limitless movement (teleport, plane shift, gate), have the internet (cop, various divinations), and so on. The Druid is just an animal with the poorest spells known of any full caster in D&D, including splat books.

[zugschef]

Except that while the Wizard & Cleric lose more than the Druid for a Core only game,[...]

that is debatable... sure, they don't care about prcs, but druids gain more wild shape and animal companion options on top of feats and spells...

[Sir Giacomo]

Note that I don't with the tiers assume you ONLY have access to your books in core.  It's just the only thing I DO assume you have access to.  I start ranking things lower if you absolutely need specific of other books.  For example, the Adept could get Sanctified or Corrupt spells, but they can't have anything even vaguely like that if they don't have BoED or BoVD in play (and those books aren't super common).  Likewise, Domains are often not allowed for Adepts because the group might not even be playing with Eberron. 

Now this is somewhat surprising since in the adept and expert vs monk debates, sourcebooks were used freely on both sides (and are likewise used for your explanation why a factotum is considered tier 3 since it gets so useful the more sources you add).

As such, the swordsage is greatly disadvantaged, since the adept works with just the core rules and tbe swordsage needs specific rules to work at all (ToB; in fact, the swordsage needs a completely new games mechanism and thus has less of a chance to be accepted by a DM).

As such, I'd suggest keeping the amount and kind of official 3.5 material in the background for comparison purposes.

- Giacomo

[JaronK]

Now this is somewhat surprising since in the adept and expert vs monk debates, sourcebooks were used freely on both sides (and are likewise used for your explanation why a factotum is considered tier 3 since it gets so useful the more sources you add).

It's not surprising since it's written in the system.  See, here's the thing:  I'm not saying you can't use other source books.  But a class is penalized if it needs more.  For example, most of what the Adept did in the Adept vs Monk thread really only required core (undead minions + scorching ray).  He got more powerful if he could use Mother Cyst and Corpsecrafter from Libris Mortis, but he didn't NEED those things.

Meanwhile, the Monk was completely doomed without tons of ACFs from many books.  That's a problem... the Adept would be able to perform somewhat similarly in most games, while the Monk was screwed without a ton of books.

As such, the swordsage is greatly disadvantaged, since the adept works with just the core rules and tbe swordsage needs specific rules to work at all (ToB; in fact, the swordsage needs a completely new games mechanism and thus has less of a chance to be accepted by a DM).

Wrong.  Read again.  I say I assume Core + the book it came in ALWAYS.  Because you never ever play a class without those things (except for very rare "no core" games).  Why on earth would I rank the Swordsage based on games where ToB isn't even in play? 

JaronK