Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152338 times)

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ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #300 on: August 16, 2011, 03:04:33 AM »
But zombies/skeletons can follow basic commands, simple tasks, which animals without specific training can't.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #301 on: August 16, 2011, 03:49:54 AM »
But zombies/skeletons can follow basic commands, simple tasks, which animals without specific training can't.

Although I don't think a zombie would be able to activate a magic item, unless the command word is "brains".
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ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #302 on: August 16, 2011, 04:10:38 AM »
Just make the command word this.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #303 on: August 16, 2011, 04:11:39 AM »
Cause this is thriller...

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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kremti

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #304 on: August 16, 2011, 12:28:02 PM »
Can mindless undead use WRT?
i'd say mindless undead can't initiate maneuvers at all.

[edit] how would a mindless undead get hold of a maneuver anyway? no feats, no class levels, and too stupid to use an item.

There's also Heroics spell...

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zook1shoe

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #305 on: August 16, 2011, 04:17:31 PM »
Quote
So then tell me exactly how long undead can persist?  There is no table and the text is incredibly vague.  Them's some good rules, yep!
How long lives the lich?

Not sure if beating a dead horse, but it seems like he Evolved Undead template sort of addresses this argument

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #306 on: August 16, 2011, 04:32:50 PM »
But zombies/skeletons can follow basic commands, simple tasks, which animals without specific training can't.
Actually my point was sort of double sided. Ravens have the ability to speak for command word items and do in fact require training to do so. Whereas, say a Hydra are naturally is unable to regardless of training which upon becoming a zombie became untrainable anyway. You're actually pushing mindless creatures become more intelligent than creatures with intelligence as your point and basing it off the concept it already knows attack and walk here and here and is completely unable to learn more than that. I sure hope you are at least seeing why I don't believe it works.

There's also Heroics spell...
Except initiating a maneuver compares it's self to casting a spell or using a psionic power + exceptions and both of which require training above and beyond the mere concept of using tools.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #307 on: August 16, 2011, 05:45:23 PM »
Nothing in the rule books describe activating non-keyword magic items is exactly like pushing a button and outside of the continuous/reactive effects nearly all of them are in fact command based. Quick, how many animals can you think of even have the ability to Command the use items to begin with? If you came up with one, the Raven, you know as much as I do. The rest don't and yet they all have intelligence scores while Zombie/Skeletons don't.

IIRC Immovable Rods are button activated, so the principle does exist (though you might have to make these button activated items yourself).  I imagine both mindless undead and animals could be used for button pushing.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #308 on: August 16, 2011, 05:57:00 PM »
Nothing in the rule books describe activating non-keyword magic items is exactly like pushing a button and outside of the continuous/reactive effects nearly all of them are in fact command based. Quick, how many animals can you think of even have the ability to Command the use items to begin with? If you came up with one, the Raven, you know as much as I do. The rest don't and yet they all have intelligence scores while Zombie/Skeletons don't.

IIRC Immovable Rods are button activated, so the principle does exist (though you might have to make these button activated items yourself).  I imagine both mindless undead and animals could be used for button pushing.

JaronK
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #309 on: August 16, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »
Well, it's entirely possible for, say, a canary warble to be the designated command word of a magic item.
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #310 on: August 16, 2011, 07:27:37 PM »
While these details are all quite interesting, I'd still like to again bring up my request...

... would anybody please show how a swordsage build at level 12 will be able to clearly surpass (=is one tier higher than) JaronK's adept of the adept vs monk thread?

@Mixster: This is also the reason why probably at this point it is not useful for me to answer to your post in detail - just finish your swordsage build and show what it can do better than the adept!  :)

Thanks a lot to all who try.

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #311 on: August 16, 2011, 09:51:15 PM »
Nothing in the rule books describe activating non-keyword magic items is exactly like pushing a button and outside of the continuous/reactive effects nearly all of them are in fact command based. Quick, how many animals can you think of even have the ability to Command the use items to begin with? If you came up with one, the Raven, you know as much as I do. The rest don't and yet they all have intelligence scores while Zombie/Skeletons don't.

IIRC Immovable Rods are button activated, so the principle does exist (though you might have to make these button activated items yourself).  I imagine both mindless undead and animals could be used for button pushing.
Hardly a point.

Breaking out certain examples - robe of w/e has you rip it up, rod of batman has 3 buttons - can equally be met with certain items that require spell slots spent or anything that uses Command(mental) or any scroll or wand. Specific examples are specific examples. The arch type Manipulation gives zero rules to what you are doing and likens it towards Somatic Components which is another totally undefined area. Saying "all zombies can use magic items because an Immovable Rod has a button" is like saying everyone knows how to swim because dead bodies float.

On the speech side, even programmed to be set off on an open syllable sound a zombie would probably make like "mer" the zombie it's self cannot be trained to say "mer" while aiming the rod of shoots-death at a target. Instead it would randomly utter the sound with no regard of where the rod is pointing much like an idiot with a roman candle. And then this is where the differences between Speech and Magic Item Activation pop in. Despite flavor text talking about accidentally saying the wrong word, combat is strictly limited in terms of actions. Saying "mer" when it's not your turn cannot activate the magic item because you cannot take a Standard Action, you are entirely hoping the item reacts to an event at key moment. Its like saying the clock is intelligent to know what time it is based off the gear's reactions to the spring's tension. You're rebuttal is based on everyone is talking about your personal meaning to a word where as they are talking about the claim your zombie activated a necklace of give me Magic Fang before attacking or w/e and weather or not a zombie is intelligent enough to properly use an item vs you building a series of reactions to what you'll expect the engine to do.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #312 on: August 16, 2011, 10:02:35 PM »
One could point out that a tape recorder has no mind whatsoever, and can still give a more accurate and reliable mimicry of a command word than a parrot, which has some intelligence and likely some training.  Obedience and zero creative ability are good for that kind of thing.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #313 on: August 16, 2011, 10:11:41 PM »
Soro has a good point about it requiring a standard action. I'm not sure what the fluff explanation is, but there is certainly something more going on than speaking a word when you activate a "command word" item. It requires a deliberate force of will, or however you want to phrase it. You can't do it by accident via normal speech (despite how hilarious that might be...).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #314 on: August 16, 2011, 10:12:33 PM »
Soro has a good point about it requiring a standard action. I'm not sure what the fluff explanation is, but there is certainly something more going on than speaking a word when you activate a "command word" item. It requires a deliberate force of will, or however you want to phrase it. You can't do it by accident via normal speech (despite how hilarious that might be...).

And yet that never saves you from getting dicked over when you have an item that can cast Wish and you don't know it.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #315 on: August 16, 2011, 10:13:35 PM »
Soro has a good point about it requiring a standard action. I'm not sure what the fluff explanation is, but there is certainly something more going on than speaking a word when you activate a "command word" item. It requires a deliberate force of will, or however you want to phrase it. You can't do it by accident via normal speech (despite how hilarious that might be...).

And yet that never saves you from getting dicked over when you have an item that can cast Wish and you don't know it.
Take it up with your DM.  :lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #316 on: August 16, 2011, 10:40:54 PM »
One could point out that a tape recorder has no mind whatsoever, and can still give a more accurate and reliable mimicry of a command word than a parrot, which has some intelligence and likely some training.  Obedience and zero creative ability are good for that kind of thing.
And who said Mindless creatures unable to learn anything can mimicry a sound perfectly?

And also, you seemed to have completely skipped over the part where the mindless machine makes up it's mind when to use that perfectly remembered sound along with oh idk, what to expect of the outcome for that sound and prepare for it (like aiming a rod prior).

Most of the can use support is with word based or are passing off an expected event (the starter turning over the engine when you turn your key) being reacted to (the engine starting and spinning the gear shaft) as using the items (your starter drives the car to work) in a meaningful and useful way (the starter obeys right of way and road signs). Which is more like the effects of building a trap using undead and less like an undead creation winning chess.

Soro has a good point about it requiring a standard action. I'm not sure what the fluff explanation is, but there is certainly something more going on than speaking a word when you activate a "command word" item. It requires a deliberate force of will, or however you want to phrase it. You can't do it by accident via normal speech (despite how hilarious that might be...).
Speech <-> Command has been one of my largest wtf things. It's like they went out for the weekend and never really came back to ask if it sounded like it should work ok.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #317 on: August 17, 2011, 12:58:53 AM »
I just figure that the only magic items that a mindless creature can use are those with Manipulation activation.  Why don't we just agree on this and move on?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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Sobolev

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #318 on: August 17, 2011, 01:25:24 AM »
Soro has a good point about it requiring a standard action. I'm not sure what the fluff explanation is, but there is certainly something more going on than speaking a word when you activate a "command word" item. It requires a deliberate force of will, or however you want to phrase it. You can't do it by accident via normal speech (despite how hilarious that might be...).

This is not true, or at least heavily implied not to be true.  In the section about Handling Magic Items in the DMG, it describes command words and mentions that they could be something like Horse or Cart or the like, but they are often nonsense words to prevent the item from being mistakenly activated.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #319 on: August 17, 2011, 02:08:50 AM »
I just figure that the only magic items that a mindless creature can use are those with Manipulation activation.  Why don't we just agree on this and move on?
I'll agree on some simple Manipulation items. Like a Bead of Force but something like Boosts of Haste would probably require the zombie's master ordering to to click it's boots together. Clicking buttons is pretty easy too but I'd stay the hell away from the glue bottle if you know what I mean. You know simple stuff and there are tons of continuous items too and those tend to be the good items to use.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]