Author Topic: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept  (Read 152345 times)

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Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #240 on: August 13, 2011, 09:05:41 AM »
I believe such a swordsage has already been built?

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Halinn

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #241 on: August 13, 2011, 12:02:52 PM »
Srsly, what counter argument, let alone argument, is there when I preemptively flat out admitted to forgetting most of the details?

Something along the lines of a dislike of a vague dismissal of responsibility of you being wrong, to be drawn upon later if it turns out you were. I might be wrong here. Not saying that I am, just that I might be.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #242 on: August 13, 2011, 06:11:02 PM »
I forget all the machinations necessary to get Alter Self over to the Adept.
[Host] feat for the ML, or a psi race that has an ML=hd/2 based ability.
Metamorphic Transfer feat at 12 or 9, or even 6 with Prac. Manifester feat.
You know why and later with Polymorph.

Eberron Adept variant. Take Spell domain (by whatever fluff) for Anyspell.
MT and Anyspell cover ALL the out-of-combat stuff, some of the in-combat.
Most of the combat related stuff, is still needed.
 :)

The Adept is down one feat and two or three spells. All the rest available.
Forlorn Flaw trades the Familiar for a bonus feat slot. There's the feat slot back.

So if someone wants to do the heavy lifting, an Adept with ~18 spells available ...
 :(

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #243 on: August 13, 2011, 06:24:30 PM »
And where oh where is "Sir Giacomo" now?

Interesting thread development - and in particular the background story about the tier system I find highly useful for future reference (maybe JaronK you could edit it into the first post of the current tier thread?).

Probably the best comparison to JaronK's adept that "won" the adept vs monk thread (and which has been already linked above, plus also described by JaronK) would be a swordsage built by JaronK himself to show how  clearly more powerful/useful to the group the swordsage is than the adept (= one tier higher).

This would follow all of the requirements of JaronK's tier comparison system (like same optimisation skill/effort) I guess.

- Giacomo

WTF... an hour later? It's like he summoned you? Or... is "Sir Giacomo" really a "ghost account" also held by Solo? I've actually wondered that more than once... Any moderator want to compare their IPs? :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Halinn

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #244 on: August 13, 2011, 10:56:54 PM »
WTF... an hour later? It's like he summoned you? Or... is "Sir Giacomo" really a "ghost account" also held by Solo? I've actually wondered that more than once... Any moderator want to compare their IPs? :P

They probably prefer to sit quietly in the shadows, laughing.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #245 on: August 14, 2011, 08:20:51 AM »
Er...well...I can assure you that Solo and me do not have much in common (certainly not the same IP address).

In fact, ever since that stupid post of his in the adept vs monk thread (see spoiler), I see no reason to directly discuss with him anything until he apologises.

[spoiler]
Giacomo, let me be frank. I notice that you have been complaining that people are not receptive to your message. I think that we may have a cultural barrier that needs bridging. I realize that in Germany, people are expected to be quickly forgiven for things like starting a world war, a holocaust, another world war, and Wagnarian opera, but the rest of the world tends to be less magnanimous.

Now, the reasons why people do not listen to you are many, but chief among them are these two:
1) You are wrong
2) You are unpleasant

Now, you could get by with one or the other, but not with both. You see, if one is wrong and pleasant, people will listen to you. They may not agree, but they will hear you out. If you are correct but unpleasant, people will still listen to you - fewer, possibly, than in the first example, but they will still respect you for being right.

If, however, you are both wrong and unpleasant, expect to be shunned, mocked, and derided. This is where you are at. I provide to you now this graphic to illustrate the point I have made.



It is ironic that you continually insult, belittle, and condescend to the people you are trying to convince are wrong, since that is the exact sort of behavior that alienates others. (Incidentally, this is why people say that you are a troll. Well, that and your trolling.)

As an aside, may I suggest you put your white knighting to use on issues other than Dungeons and Dragons? As important as defending monks for future generations is, surely that task pales in comparison to alleviating social evils? Multiculturalism is causing many racial tensions between your fellow Germans and Muslim immigrants from the Middle Ease, with your chancellor going so far to declare that multiculturalism is a failure, and the Neo-Nazi movement is on the rise due to aforementioned racial tensions. Maybe you should take the time that you use proving how others are wrong to stop a Fourth Reich from forming?
[/spoiler]

I do see that Solo built a Swordsage, but JaronK rated it only of average quality and thus it appears not really comparable to the high-optimisation adept build he did.
Or, JaronK says that Solo's build is acceptable as typical Tier 3 build and illustrates where it clearly is a tier higher than his own necromantic adept (which he thus would also consider as representative of typical average representative tier 4).

I am looking forward to his decision.

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #246 on: August 14, 2011, 08:26:56 AM »
Er...well...I can assure you that Solo and me do not have much in common (certainly not the same IP address).

In fact, ever since that stupid post of his in the adept vs monk thread (see spoiler), I see no reason to directly discuss with him anything until he apologises.

[spoiler]
Giacomo, let me be frank. I notice that you have been complaining that people are not receptive to your message. I think that we may have a cultural barrier that needs bridging. I realize that in Germany, people are expected to be quickly forgiven for things like starting a world war, a holocaust, another world war, and Wagnarian opera, but the rest of the world tends to be less magnanimous.

Now, the reasons why people do not listen to you are many, but chief among them are these two:
1) You are wrong
2) You are unpleasant

Now, you could get by with one or the other, but not with both. You see, if one is wrong and pleasant, people will listen to you. They may not agree, but they will hear you out. If you are correct but unpleasant, people will still listen to you - fewer, possibly, than in the first example, but they will still respect you for being right.

If, however, you are both wrong and unpleasant, expect to be shunned, mocked, and derided. This is where you are at. I provide to you now this graphic to illustrate the point I have made.



It is ironic that you continually insult, belittle, and condescend to the people you are trying to convince are wrong, since that is the exact sort of behavior that alienates others. (Incidentally, this is why people say that you are a troll. Well, that and your trolling.)

As an aside, may I suggest you put your white knighting to use on issues other than Dungeons and Dragons? As important as defending monks for future generations is, surely that task pales in comparison to alleviating social evils? Multiculturalism is causing many racial tensions between your fellow Germans and Muslim immigrants from the Middle Ease, with your chancellor going so far to declare that multiculturalism is a failure, and the Neo-Nazi movement is on the rise due to aforementioned racial tensions. Maybe you should take the time that you use proving how others are wrong to stop a Fourth Reich from forming?
[/spoiler]

I do see that Solo built a Swordsage, but JaronK rated it only of average quality and thus it appears not really comparable to the high-optimisation adept build he did.
Or, JaronK says that Solo's build is acceptable as typical Tier 3 build and illustrates where it clearly is a tier higher than his own necromantic adept (which he thus would also consider as representative of typical average representative tier 4).

I am looking forward to his decision.

- Giacomo

Just a quick note. The Adepts build so far have all been of average optimization, even/especially the finger dart one i did. I spent 10 minutes making mine, and i suspect JaronK spent less or equal time on his.
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #247 on: August 14, 2011, 08:32:35 AM »
Just a quick note. The Adepts build so far have all been of average optimization, even/especially the finger dart one i did. I spent 10 minutes making mine, and i suspect JaronK spent less or equal time on his.

Well, if that is a case, what is your impression when looking at your adept build and that of Solo (provided btw that the BovD errata on the finger dart cost does not apply to the soulmeld you used)?

Is his build a tier above yours? Remember JaronK's three scenarios...how, for a start, do you think Solo's swordsage will defeat a CR 12 white mature adult dragon in his lair?

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #248 on: August 14, 2011, 09:09:27 AM »
Just a quick note. The Adepts build so far have all been of average optimization, even/especially the finger dart one i did. I spent 10 minutes making mine, and i suspect JaronK spent less or equal time on his.

Well, if that is a case, what is your impression when looking at your adept build and that of Solo (provided btw that the BovD errata on the finger dart cost does not apply to the soulmeld you used)?

Is his build a tier above yours? Remember JaronK's three scenarios...how, for a start, do you think Solo's swordsage will defeat a CR 12 white mature adult dragon in his lair?

- Giacomo

I have no idea... I play casters every time i play DnD, and ToB is one of the last books i haven't really read carefully, so the whole maneuver's and stances and so on is a bit alien to me. Only experience i have had with ToB classes are when other players uses one at our table, and i am always a Tier 1 class. And from what i have experienced there, they aren't world-changing good like casters, but i have yet been in an encounter where they couldn't participate and make a difference, and that is more then i have experienced from other martial classes in the past.

I will let Solo explain how he would contribute with a Swordsage, and maybe he can give some insights into how he would use it in an encounter with a CR 12 white dragon.
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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #249 on: August 14, 2011, 09:42:50 AM »
Giacomo, let me be frank. I notice that you have been complaining that people are not receptive to your message. I think that we may have a cultural barrier that needs bridging. I realize that in Germany, people are expected to be quickly forgiven for things like starting a world war, a holocaust, another world war, and Wagnarian opera, but the rest of the world tends to be less magnanimous.

Now, the reasons why people do not listen to you are many, but chief among them are these two:
1) You are wrong
2) You are unpleasant

Now, you could get by with one or the other, but not with both. You see, if one is wrong and pleasant, people will listen to you. They may not agree, but they will hear you out. If you are correct but unpleasant, people will still listen to you - fewer, possibly, than in the first example, but they will still respect you for being right.

If, however, you are both wrong and unpleasant, expect to be shunned, mocked, and derided. This is where you are at. I provide to you now this graphic to illustrate the point I have made.



It is ironic that you continually insult, belittle, and condescend to the people you are trying to convince are wrong, since that is the exact sort of behavior that alienates others. (Incidentally, this is why people say that you are a troll. Well, that and your trolling.)

As an aside, may I suggest you put your white knighting to use on issues other than Dungeons and Dragons? As important as defending monks for future generations is, surely that task pales in comparison to alleviating social evils? Multiculturalism is causing many racial tensions between your fellow Germans and Muslim immigrants from the Middle Ease, with your chancellor going so far to declare that multiculturalism is a failure, and the Neo-Nazi movement is on the rise due to aforementioned racial tensions. Maybe you should take the time that you use proving how others are wrong to stop a Fourth Reich from forming?

Thank you for re-posting this, I didn't see it the first time around.

Is his build a tier above yours? Remember JaronK's three scenarios...how, for a start, do you think Solo's swordsage will defeat a CR 12 white mature adult dragon in his lair?

Can't remember what he ended up putting in his build, but IIRC, he has a few movement manoeuvres. Can find the dragon through a combination of listen + hearing the air, or survival + scent. Then he can jump on it, possibly initiate a strike or a boost that will give him more damage, and then use battle jump to kill it with his valorous weapon. He can do this better with a party.

The finger-adept on the other hand, will have a few troubles finding the dragon, but once he does, it is likely to be resting in a cavern on the ceiling assessing the opposition (which it has only seen through a combination of ghost sound and silent image, that could be some high level wizard attempting to lure it out) before deciding how to strike, it wont have seen the adept when he finally finds it. Then he will fingerbang the dragon, and combat will be decided by a quick can he beat the SR or will the dragon find him and crush him. This is more safe with a party, that could help him by protecting him. Alternatively he can wait for the dragon to leave, and then hit him with finger darts and their long range, that would give him two firings before the dragon can attack him, which would probably mean he wins.

The minion-adept can use a combination of his minions to lure out the dragon, + Scorching Ray & Web to kill it. Coinciding this with the party is a little harder, but it can actually help valuable but frail members of the party from being hit, assuming they too hide in his group of minions, the same way he does. Since clearly the dragon attacks that commoner that stops randomly (we've already assessed this).

An unarmed swordsage, could probably do it better, since he gives up little for a bit more damage. Especially if he can use custom items that cast Greater Mighty Wallop, and things like that.
Here's a little build that compiles the broken stuff over the last few threads on one character, haven't chosen manoeuvres yet, but they will mostly be movement manoeuvres.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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skydragonknight

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #250 on: August 14, 2011, 09:53:11 AM »
Against an equal CR -which the game considers appropriate for four 12th level characters to face as a group- I'd say 'sure success' would be either: crippling the opponents ability to participate effectively in combat (save or lose, crowd control over multiple combat rounds, etc.) and/or dealing half its hit points in damage. Basically, the party could finish it off with relative ease in either case. Failure would be defined as death/elimination from combat before either of these are achieved, assuming you are the primary target of the opponent.

'Partial success' would be hindering (but not crippling) the opponents' combat ability or dealing one third its health in damage. The other teammates would have to pick up the slack in order to save you, but you would still have contributed to the overall party victory.
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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #251 on: August 14, 2011, 11:03:22 AM »
Quote
If you are correct but unpleasant, people will still listen to you - fewer, possibly, than in the first example, but they will still respect you for being right.
  :clap
I will bring this up anytime someone mentions Frank & K's tomes.
Actually, it makes some people resist you even more but those people are unplesant and wrong too.
All in all go get'em Solo  :D
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #252 on: August 14, 2011, 03:53:59 PM »

...which I guess will make commenting on it quite difficult. ;)

The finger-adept on the other hand, will have a few troubles finding the dragon, but once he does, it is likely to be resting in a cavern on the ceiling assessing the opposition (which it has only seen through a combination of ghost sound and silent image, that could be some high level wizard attempting to lure it out) before deciding how to strike, it wont have seen the adept when he finally finds it. Then he will fingerbang the dragon, and combat will be decided by a quick can he beat the SR or will the dragon find him and crush him. This is more safe with a party, that could help him by protecting him. Alternatively he can wait for the dragon to leave, and then hit him with finger darts and their long range, that would give him two firings before the dragon can attack him, which would probably mean he wins.

The minion-adept can use a combination of his minions to lure out the dragon, + Scorching Ray & Web to kill it. Coinciding this with the party is a little harder, but it can actually help valuable but frail members of the party from being hit, assuming they too hide in his group of minions, the same way he does. Since clearly the dragon attacks that commoner that stops randomly (we've already assessed this).

Yes we did. Now let us see how you think swordsage and adept compare.

An unarmed swordsage, could probably do it better, since he gives up little for a bit more damage. Especially if he can use custom items that cast Greater Mighty Wallop, and things like that.
Here's a little build that compiles the broken stuff over the last few threads on one character, haven't chosen manoeuvres yet, but they will mostly be movement manoeuvres.

Well, a few comments on your first steps toward a swordsage build:
  • Then, you should also use 25-pt-buy. You appear to have exceeded it vastly.
  • Exceeding wbl with an item familiar should be OK since JaronK did that also with his adept through item creation and crafting.

Solo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #253 on: August 14, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »
Guys, the build has been linked to multiple times!

As for defeating the dragon, I figure I'll do... exactly what "Giacomo" did with his monk. Surprise it and kill it. I doubt he'll object too much to that, unless there's some reason that the Dragon will be able to detect a Swordsage and not a Monk.

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #254 on: August 14, 2011, 04:18:34 PM »
Guys, the build has been linked to multiple times!

As for defeating the dragon, I figure I'll do... exactly what "Giacomo" did with his monk. Surprise it and kill it. I doubt he'll object too much to that, unless there's some reason that the Dragon will be able to detect a Swordsage and not a Monk.
But, that Swordsage doesn't have Darkstalker!  The dragon auto-detects it!

Of course, none of his Monks have had Darkstalker either, so...
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Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #255 on: August 14, 2011, 04:22:29 PM »
Sometimes repeating what I said can help...


I'd suggest that not only to Mixster for his, but all swordsage builds that may get or have alreay been posted for comparison to JaronK's build should follow that recommendation. ;)

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #256 on: August 14, 2011, 04:29:14 PM »
  • Then, you should also use 25-pt-buy. You appear to have exceeded it vastly.
  • Exceeding wbl with an item familiar should be OK since JaronK did that also with his adept through item creation and crafting.

  • Experience is a river. A level lost at 3rd is gained back before level 12.
  • He is venerable (no penalties, because he's undead). I count him having a point buy of exactly 25. 14/14/8/14/14/9, with levels going into wisdom.
  • Because there was an adept build of average optimization, Mixster can't make a Swordsage build of a higher optimization level?
  • See 3
  • Because it loses nothing of value to gain something of some value, the unarmed swordsage is probably slightly better than a regular swordsage. Not enough to move it a tier, but probably enough to be better for optimization. Class variants are, unless noted otherwise, in roughly the same tier as the base classes.
  • I don't care either way if blinking allows flight, but as SorO showed, there was at least an argument that could be made in favor of that.
  • Crafting yourself is fine, there is even mention of allowing it in the DMG. Neither the monk nor the presented swordsage has the required spells to craft those abilities on the item familiar, though.

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #257 on: August 14, 2011, 04:32:36 PM »
Quote
He is venerable (no penalties, because he's undead). I count him having a point buy of exactly 25. 14/14/8/14/14/9, with levels going into wisdom.
Hm. Quick little question: Do undead (like vampires or liches) really get age bonuses? Where can I find the rules on it? Because I always thought that when undead you don't age so you also don't get any bonuses.
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #258 on: August 14, 2011, 04:40:40 PM »
He is venerable (no penalties, because he's undead). I count him having a point buy of exactly 25. 14/14/8/14/14/9, with levels going into wisdom.

Um, no.  Either you're aging, or you're not.  You don't get to be aging when it benefits you, and not when it doesn't (unless you're a dragonbold, of course).

Reduced ability scores from aging aren't the same thing as ability damage or ability drain, so undead immunity to ability drain, and ability damage to physical ability scores, won't protect you.  You could go ahead and hit venerable before you became necropolitan, if you wanted, but you won't retroactively get those reduced ability scores back up to their youthful levels.  The only way undeath helps you here is you don't care about having a Con score of 2 because it's replaced with -- instead.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs Unarmed Swordsage 2: Revenge of Monk vs Adept
« Reply #259 on: August 14, 2011, 04:43:14 PM »
Shucks. and I was hoping that my vampire wizard would get some more Int, Wis and Cha... :smirk
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]