Author Topic: Is D&D a game about imagination?  (Read 6006 times)

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veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2011, 01:45:44 PM »
Well there are some places where the mechanics just doesn't support it very well without a lot of contortions. A single shot sniper type for example, or highly mobile melee.

Granted, homebrew solves a lot on that end.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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RobbyPants

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2011, 02:36:27 PM »
Well there are some places where the mechanics just doesn't support it very well without a lot of contortions. A single shot sniper type for example, or highly mobile melee.
Well, from the player's standpoint, single shot anything is pretty terrible if it's being used against them. So, there are two ways to handle this:

1) PCs get special stuff that monsters don't (like one-shot sniping, or something), or

2) You're only expected to be able to one-shot stuff several levels behind you.

#2 already has a decent amount of support. If your concept is a guy who should be one-shotting ogres (CR 3), you might be looking at something more like a 5th to 10th level PC, depending on approach (full attack vs single attack). So, you don't get to play 5th level character concepts at 3rd level. It's just the way the game works.


Granted, homebrew solves a lot on that end.
But, other than that, I do agree with your statement in general. Some archetypes are represented very poorly in D&D, and house rules can help a lot with that.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 02:41:00 PM by RobbyPants »
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veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 03:32:35 PM »
Well, less 'one-hit-kill' and more single shot effective(ala ubercharging for ranged attacks). D&D archers tend to have rates of fire comparable to semiautomatic firearms, but the precise, deadly shot is lacking. Even sneak attacks, the most flavorwise closest to the concept, strongly favors a multitude of attacks that add up to one whopping hit. Thats another thing.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."


veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 04:55:51 PM »
Hence the lack of support bit. :)
Its not necessarily optimal but it should be effective enough to be usable.

ToB does throw in some effective single hit melee,  though even that pales to a effective full attack.
Spells have effective mass ranged, but being spells they do that and more to begin with.

Imagine, say, a Death Attack/Final Shot that requires a move action to study the target, which bestows triple sneak attack bonus damage on the next sneak attack. Thats one way.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2011, 05:42:12 PM »
It isn't. Then you just have people geting other ways of geting extra move actions and whatnot for more boosted attacks.

Just like most of the top spellcasting power comes from geting more spells in a single round.

Heck even the top ToB maneuvers are the ones that allow you to get more attacks. Time stands still, White Raven tactics, whatever mongoose, you name it.

Really it's basically inevitable. If one attack is good, then of course multiple attacks are better. The only way to avoid it is make it extra-hardcoded like 4e rogue's sneak attack. You can get it once per round, and that's it, no ifs or buts.

veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2011, 07:29:40 PM »
The difference and the point is that they don't have to be optimal. The way the mechanics work is that multiple attacks are superior. However, you just need to be effective enough to make it playable.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:43 PM »
Which would be all fine and dandy if we had anything resembling a consensus on what is "playable".

After all last time I checked single attacks are all the rage at low levels, but now you claiming they're unplayable.

Other people would go as far as claiming that if you don't have the ability to rewrite reality at every turn, you're unplayable as well.

Shiki

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2011, 08:22:43 PM »
I think it is general knowledge that something resembling a consensus on what is playable is "Your Mileage May Vary", or so it would seem.
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veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2011, 03:48:26 AM »
There is still basic competence.
As it is for example, you can charge with a lance/Leap Attack and be effective.
You can also charge with Pounce and be effective.
You can also slap on more multipliers, combine pounce with charge multipliers and achieve great overkill.
You can full-attack with a two handed reach weapon and be sorta effective(seeing as you need to get them in reach first)
You can use Rapid Shot Hasted archery and riddle opponents with arrows.
Those are all effective.

On the ineffective end though, you have:
-Sword and Board, losing out on the basic multipliers of two handing, yet gaining only a narrow defense
-TWF, you have the flaws of the full attack method, with less damage, less accuracy and more money sunk in.
-Unarmed fighting, ahahaha.

Its a matter of return on investment. For this many levels, feats and equipment, for this amount of effort, how much gain are you getting? To be effective, not making a loss can suffice.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2011, 05:33:19 AM »
-Sword and Board, losing out on the basic multipliers of two handing, yet gaining only a narrow defense
At low levels the extra damage from two-handed is negligible and the extra AC quite valuable. At high levels you get an animated shield.

-TWF, you have the flaws of the full attack method, with less damage, less accuracy and more money sunk in.
It always has been playable with sneak attack for extra damage, and with ToB suport it can become quite potent.

-Unarmed fighting, ahahaha.
Get natural weapons, not that hard. Profit.

veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2011, 09:07:28 AM »
Exactly.

So just provide that same level of minimal support for other styles that the system doesn't cover well enough yet.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."


Rejakor

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2011, 01:41:26 PM »
/necro

I've never played any kind of archer.  But isn't manyshot a single attack roll?  Refluff it as one single arrow, boom, bam, you're done.  Greater manyshot if you're a swift hunter.


In a fantastical game, the crunch should support anything fantastical while maintaining challenge (and to a lesser extent, balance).  The catch is, that's hard.


So the answer to this question is basically 'is fluff mutable?  Derr yes.  Is crunch mutable?  Yeah, if you're good enough to rewrite it without cocking it up.'

Unbeliever

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2011, 02:15:52 AM »
There's also a PF feat that lets you combine all your shots, so there's that. 

I think *most* archetypes and concepts are supportable in 3.5 D&D, it just takes varying levels of headache and opti-fu to do it.  That doesn't necessarily make me happy, but I've gotten good enough at thinking around corners w/ the system to make it work for me/my group at the level of optimization we usually enjoy.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2011, 06:04:28 AM »
When the designers were making D&D they poured all of their imagination into magic. This is actually USUALLY the case in most roleplaying systems I've played. When they were working on non-magic things, they poured all of their knowledge of reality into them. This again is usually the case in most roleplaying games I've played. The magical people get all the imaginative energy (which is waaaaaaay more powerful) and the mundanes get recoil and armor check penalties.

It's easy to forget the imagination is there when you're playing someone for whom no imagination was offered. If you're playing a mundane the developers spent more time thinking about what you couldn't do than what you could. If you're playing someone magical, then you're playing someone's fantasy brainstorm.

The really sucky thing is that the developers were kinda stupid. That's why a creature who is fine size can jump 5 in the air with as much ease as something that's colossal. Furthermore, the colossal creature will have a very hard time jumping higher than most average humans, despite the fact that he can simply lift his foot higher.

To answer your question: Yes. You may not realize it, but there are people who simply can't play tabletop RPGs. They just don't get how you can pretend like that. My GF is one of them. It amazes her how I talk about games because I speak in first person about something my character did. She doesn't realize she pretended like that once or twice when she came over, but some people just can't turn it on and off like a gamer can.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 06:11:54 AM by Bloody Initiate »
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clintack

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2011, 01:31:00 PM »
While it's technically true that rules "limit" imagination...

It's a bit like saying that only free verse is truly imaginative poetry -- once you start writing sonnets or haiku or requiring the poem to scan or rhyme you've just killed all the imagination.

Or like saying that using paint limits the imagination of the painter.

There's nothing wrong with free form rpging or collaborative storytelling -- but if it's something you're doing with other people, there are going to be "rules" even if you aren't quite so explicit about them.  There's *something* another player/writer could do that you would consider to have "broken" the story/game and you'd be mad at them.  And the other players/writers probably know what they are.

Extreme Example: Five of you are sitting around playing a freeform game, telling each other your parts of the bigger narrative.  One player, on his turn, gets up, goes to the fridge, grabs a beer, then goes to the PS3 and starts playing Call of Duty.  You cry, "WTF, man?  I thought we were playing <Freeform RPG>?"  He replies, "I am.  This is my turn -- what, is this against your precious rules?  WTF?  You're squashing my imagination here with your fascist rules!"  Free form can work well for good writers, actors, and storytellers.  Not so good for performance artists. End-Extreme-Example.

Whether the D&D rules are good for collectively telling a good story?  That's another issue.  There's still a lot of miniature-based tactical wargaming in the rule set.  Personally, I'm starting to gravitate towards Fate systems, since the Dresden Files RPG came out.

Bauglir

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2011, 03:31:31 AM »
If you're playing a mundane the developers spent more time thinking about what you couldn't do than what you could. If you're playing someone magical, then you're playing someone's fantasy brainstorm.

This is the best summary of the dichotomy between casting and noncasting I've seen in a while. I'm going to keep it in mind.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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veekie

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Re: Is D&D a game about imagination?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2011, 06:22:00 AM »
^^
That is totally siggable.
While it's technically true that rules "limit" imagination...

It's a bit like saying that only free verse is truly imaginative poetry -- once you start writing sonnets or haiku or requiring the poem to scan or rhyme you've just killed all the imagination.

Or like saying that using paint limits the imagination of the painter.

There's nothing wrong with free form rpging or collaborative storytelling -- but if it's something you're doing with other people, there are going to be "rules" even if you aren't quite so explicit about them.  There's *something* another player/writer could do that you would consider to have "broken" the story/game and you'd be mad at them.  And the other players/writers probably know what they are.

Extreme Example: Five of you are sitting around playing a freeform game, telling each other your parts of the bigger narrative.  One player, on his turn, gets up, goes to the fridge, grabs a beer, then goes to the PS3 and starts playing Call of Duty.  You cry, "WTF, man?  I thought we were playing <Freeform RPG>?"  He replies, "I am.  This is my turn -- what, is this against your precious rules?  WTF?  You're squashing my imagination here with your fascist rules!"  Free form can work well for good writers, actors, and storytellers.  Not so good for performance artists. End-Extreme-Example.

Whether the D&D rules are good for collectively telling a good story?  That's another issue.  There's still a lot of miniature-based tactical wargaming in the rule set.  Personally, I'm starting to gravitate towards Fate systems, since the Dresden Files RPG came out.
To elaborate on the restrictions matter.
People are lazy, they naturally tend towards the path of least resistance.
When creating a story without restrictions, lack of resistance means most players would take the path of least resistance and make something 'standard' either a common archetype, or taking straight from popular media.
Restrictions cause the path to meander, they force their own story to grow. Each limitation both narrows the range of available stories and pushes it deeper still.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."