Author Topic: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer  (Read 22865 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2011, 11:07:41 PM »
Flaws have nothing to do with it.  At first level, if you are a Binder 1, you don't qualify for Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, or pretty much anything else that can get you early, high-level spells.  If you're a Wizard 1, you don't qualify for Improved Binding.  Actually, though, there is one method I forgot and that's Improved Sigil (Krau).  So, Illumians w/ flaws can enter at level 3, everyone else has to wait until at least 4, and are 90% of the time better off waiting until 5.
Actually, you can take 'magical training' to get a couple of 0th level spells, then pick up precocious apprentice.

Incidentally, precocious apprentice isn't spell-list-limited.
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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2011, 12:45:08 AM »
Flaws have nothing to do with it.  At first level, if you are a Binder 1, you don't qualify for Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, or pretty much anything else that can get you early, high-level spells.  If you're a Wizard 1, you don't qualify for Improved Binding.  Actually, though, there is one method I forgot and that's Improved Sigil (Krau).  So, Illumians w/ flaws can enter at level 3, everyone else has to wait until at least 4, and are 90% of the time better off waiting until 5.
Actually, you can take 'magical training' to get a couple of 0th level spells, then pick up precocious apprentice.

Incidentally, precocious apprentice isn't spell-list-limited.
That depends on your definition of "Arcane caster level," which I still don't believe is defined anywhere (although I haven't bothered to get the Rules Compendium).  In any case, this still only works for Humans with 2 flaws.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2011, 01:04:23 AM »
You have a caster level of 1 for an arcane spell.  What more could you ask for?

I'm only seeing one flaw needed for a human - Improved Binding, magical training, and precocious apprentice are only three feats.  Am I missing something?
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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2011, 05:08:46 AM »
You have a caster level of 1 for an arcane spell.  What more could you ask for?

I'm only seeing one flaw needed for a human - Improved Binding, magical training, and precocious apprentice are only three feats.  Am I missing something?
Level one in a class granting arcane spells.

A metamagic feat.

Caelic

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 07:46:46 PM »
I'm fond of Wizard-Ruathar-Unseen Seer, personally.  It delays entry a bit (unless you use early-entry tricks to get 3rd level spells quickly, in which case I believe you can get in as early as level 2.)  On the other hand, it means no lost of spellcasting progression, and a fair number of nice little goodies from Ruathar.

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 11:17:21 AM »
But a Ruathar doesn't grant you sneak attack.
I'll start my Unseen Seer next week and think atm that Rogue 1 -> Wizard 4 -> Unseen Seer 2 -> Metaphysical Spellshaper 1 -> advancing Unseen Seer more is probably the best way for me to get my Sneak attack and enough skill points with the best spellcasting progression: no lost CL and only one lost level of spellcasting.
Race is human and feats will be Practised Spellcaster (obv necessary), Able Learner (necessary for the skills), Invisible Spell or some other Metamagic Feat (invisible spell should be best for sniping without beeing detected), Strongheart Vest Soulmeld (for Metaphysical Spellshaper to cast all spells silented) and Rapid Metamagic (necessary for faster casting as Metaphysical Spellshaper). Rogue could be better than Spellthief since I need Practised Spellcaster anyhow so I couldn't use the advanced CL from the Feat, so I am stuck between choosing more skill points at start (8 to be exact) or getting Steal Spell by one feat. But that feat could be taken first at level 12 since I'm not allowed to take flaws. I start that Char in the middle of level 8, so I dunno if it's worth the lost skill points.

kremti

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »
But a Ruathar doesn't grant you sneak attack.
I'll start my Unseen Seer next week and think atm that Rogue 1 -> Wizard 4 -> Unseen Seer 2 -> Metaphysical Spellshaper 1 -> advancing Unseen Seer more is probably the best way for me to get my Sneak attack and enough skill points with the best spellcasting progression: no lost CL and only one lost level of spellcasting.
Race is human and feats will be Practised Spellcaster (obv necessary), Able Learner (necessary for the skills), Invisible Spell or some other Metamagic Feat (invisible spell should be best for sniping without beeing detected), Strongheart Vest Soulmeld (for Metaphysical Spellshaper to cast all spells silented) and Rapid Metamagic (necessary for faster casting as Metaphysical Spellshaper). Rogue could be better than Spellthief since I need Practised Spellcaster anyhow so I couldn't use the advanced CL from the Feat, so I am stuck between choosing more skill points at start (8 to be exact) or getting Steal Spell by one feat. But that feat could be taken first at level 12 since I'm not allowed to take flaws. I start that Char in the middle of level 8, so I dunno if it's worth the lost skill points.
You can use the advanced CL from the feat, because you get to pick the order at which you apply the feat to your advantage.  You apply the Practiced spellcaster first, raising your CL up to your HD then Master Spellthief, pushing it higher than your HD.

Ruathar doesn't grant sneak attack, but there are other ways to grant yourself sneak attack anyways...

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Caelic

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 02:47:15 PM »
But a Ruathar doesn't grant you sneak attack.



Doesn't need to.  Sneak attack's not a requirement for Unseen Seer, and the Unseen Seer's ability doesn't actually require you to have sneak attack in order to advance it.  I think a case can be made either way, RAI, but by RAW, someone who comes into Unseen Seer with none of the abilities in question can still advance one of them.

Your base sneak attack won't be very HIGH, but you're a full spellcaster.  It's a little like saying, "My revolver's not very high caliber, I wish I had a bigger one somewhere in my tank!"  There are certainly enough ways for a full caster to get massive sneak attack if he wants it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 02:49:37 PM by Caelic »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 03:24:12 PM »
What you do is cast Hunter's Eye, which grants sneak attack, and then your unseen seer sneak attack will progress it regardless of what else happens.
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Tr011

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2011, 10:34:29 PM »
and then your unseen seer sneak attack will progress it regardless of what else happens.

Never thought of that. Nice indeed, but still has some problems with the skills. For a semi-rogue I obviously need some skill points, which are not granted by the wizard (2+ won't be enough).
Btw what school would you ban for this build? (I don't wanna go the Domain variant again since it has little versatility with the bonus spell slots.)
Illusion is obviously necessary for invis and stuff, but evocation should be needed for some sniping-rays. So should I ban necromancy and loose the big debuffs or ban enchantment and suck in social encounters? Specialization is in Divination because it both fits thematically and has only one school to ban.

kremti

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »
Ban Evo and use Orbs for sniping?

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Tr011

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 01:48:36 AM »
Ban Evo and use Orbs for sniping?

-K
Didn't noticed Orbs are not Evo. Conjuration just OP o.O thx for ur hint.

Sorator

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 05:46:50 AM »
Ban Evo and use Orbs for sniping?

-K
Didn't noticed Orbs are not Evo. Conjuration just OP o.O thx for ur hint.
They also ignore SR, since you're conjuring an orb of whatever and sending it flying at the guy instead of evoking magical energy at the guy. Handy differences.

Tr011

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Re: Optimizing the way to Unseen Seer
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 12:57:14 PM »
I'm pretty sure about the build now, but not with my metamagic feats (I need two to qualify for Metaphysical Spellshaper and then get one as a bonus feat). I get Silent Metamagic for free and thus I still need two more (maybe one that I apply all the time at +1 like Still and Invis or something, but I'm not sure).