Author Topic: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?  (Read 2891 times)

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Hallack

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In particular I'm looking at Pouncing Charge (5th level Tiger Claw).

The ability to full attack at the end of a charge is pretty great, especially considering how hard many try to find ways to do just this for various builds.

I realize there are many differences between the Dervish Dance and Charging like greater flexibility in movement with the Dance (ie move attack move) and not having to deal with weapons set to receive charge.

As I type this out I have formed an opinion that while somewhat similar (allowing full attack with movement) one can't really replace the other (depending on the build goals).

They could certainly play well together in a build so as to get a lot more full attack movements while not burning through daily dances.

Any thoughts or nifty ideas?

Figure I will probably go ahead and eventually get both for my character.

(modified title to expand upon the initial discussion in regards to how ToB interacts with Dervish features)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 12:00:14 PM by Hallack »
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Ubernoob

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Re: Could Pouncing Charge (maneuver) negate need for Dervish dance?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 01:18:02 PM »
Lion totem barbarian only costs a level and works every round.  Higher cheese factor, but I'll take it over a maneuver on any non pure warblade.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Could Pouncing Charge (maneuver) negate need for Dervish dance?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 02:35:13 PM »
A better replicate for Dervish Dance is the Desert Tempest maneuver.  Works really well with Cloak of Deception.
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Hallack

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Re: Could Pouncing Charge (maneuver) negate need for Dervish dance?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 03:56:19 PM »
Uber- Yeah, that's definitely a nice option.  Won't work for me in this instance though due to alignment issues (got monk levels and in general want to stay Lawful). 

But that does make me think of a Barbarian(crafty hunter variant)/Scout swifthunter which could also be sweet.

Ksb- Hadn't noticed that maneuver.  It's pretty nice but has a big problem in that you can only attack each opponent one time with it.
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DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Could Pouncing Charge (maneuver) negate need for Dervish dance?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 06:05:13 PM »
I wouldn't say it replaces it, but adding in Pouncing Charge to a Dervish build is a good idea - saves dances when there's just 1 enemy you want to attack, and it's also good for when the battlefield is cramped (making dancing difficult to pull off).

Hallack

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Re: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 12:18:12 PM »
Modified the thread title to encompass a more broad topic regarding ToB and Dervish.

I'm thinking that with ToB one could get more benefit out of progressing Dervish to only about 6th level and take say levels of a martial class, in this case I'm looking at Warblade.

You would only give up +5 movement (enhancement), Elaborate party, Tireless dance, thousand cuts, and 2 dances.  Of course all those are quite nice but I'm thinking that certain maneuvers would more than make up for the losses and give added flexibility and survivability.

For instance do you need Tireless dance if you have Iron Heart Surge?

Loss of Thousand Cuts could be compensated for by many maneuvers depending you IL...ie the much loved Time Stands Still, or even dancing/raging mongoose.

The more I think about it a a MartialX/DervishX could just rock.

 
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Cap Smash

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Re: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 03:49:15 PM »
well, the Idea of a dervishx martial adept x had occurred to both me and my dm.

so in the epic game my 29 gestalt artificer//bard was for( who wiped on a force dragon, BOO) he let me make a gestalt factotum/dungeon crashin fighter/lion totem,whirling frenzy barbarian//warblade/dervish. I decided to see just how much dairy he would let me have, and asked for crescent knives.

He looked them over and said yes.

I just hit one hundred attacks once per day, and fifty every three rounds, because this char was picked previously as the Twf machine

+1 speed crescent knives of deadly precisionX2 plus an adamantine golem arm... long story, its a curse...no spell immunity, low str=

+50/+50/+50/+45/+40/+35
+50/+50/+50/+45/+40/+35
on my swings and that is with nothing special, 1d8+26 dmg,+2d6 if sneak attacking but if we add raging mongoose and time stands still it gets stupid, and then a thousand cuts makes it so cheesy I dont even like the blender anymore.

yeah, 29 levels to make a blender. ron popiel had it so easy...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 06:02:17 PM by Cap Smash »

EjoThims

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Re: Could Pouncing Charge (maneuver) negate need for Dervish dance?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 03:45:49 PM »
Uber- Yeah, that's definitely a nice option.  Won't work for me in this instance though due to alignment issues (got monk levels and in general want to stay Lawful).

Chaos Monk is your friend.

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Hallack

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Re: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 04:45:40 PM »
Sadly we do not use Dragon magazine.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 02:32:47 AM »
Loss of Thousand Cuts could be compensated for by many maneuvers depending you IL...ie the much loved Time Stands Still, or even dancing/raging mongoose.
A 1/day double your attacks is no where near as good as a once (or more) per encounter double your attacks.

I think the idea might be worth it (like anything else with 14 levels of warblade). I do feel like tossing out a dual weapon idea since dervish lets you use scimitars as light weapons.

GTWF * Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + Keen Scimitar + Blood in the Water = 18 attacks with a 15-20 crit range weapon, which is enough for four crits per round as a less than average amount and gives +1 to attack and damage per crit. As for a kick in the teeth you can use maneuver granting items to pick up a shadow hand maneuver then use Marital Stance to pick up Assassin's Stance for access to SA. After buying Deadly Percision (MiC), Bracers of the Hunter (SoX), Rogue's Vest (MiC), Mantle of the Predator, and a (customized) Umbral Awn you even have +10d6 SA to try and validate having TWF in the first place.

The down side is of course being able to hit with the low bonus attacks, 19 dex required for GTWF, and dumping about 100k in SA boosters. But it still sounds good in my head...

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Shadeseraph

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Re: Does some ToB maneuvers offset benifit of full Dervish progression?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 01:58:08 PM »
The dervish has some other advantages in addition to dervish dance, and many of them are frankly neat. The ability to take 10 on tumble and jump checks is definitely interesting, as it cancels AoO and adds a nice set of tricks (acrobatic strike for a +4 to hit comes to mind). The extra movement and the extra AC are nice for a light armored class, And don't forget that the dervish get a bonus to attack and damage while dancing. In a low magic environment, the bonus to hit is pretty useful.
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