Author Topic: Newbie tactical first-liner  (Read 2984 times)

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Shadeseraph

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Newbie tactical first-liner
« on: July 28, 2008, 09:37:03 AM »
Well, first some background. I've playing casters for almost all my D&D life, so, for a change, I decided to try the other side of the coin. That said, the campaign we are starting is somewhat restrictive. It's also my first time with this DM, and, as far as I know, he is pretty known for being, let's say, "unreasonable" in the WPL department. As in "well, the wizard you have beaten has no spellbook, and all his magic items were wands and scrolls, and all of them are spent". We are starting at level 3, with the standard gold for characters of that level, but, from the words of the other players, those 2400 gp are the only ones I'm likely to spend on magic items. Also, while apparently we will level fast, I don't know when the game will end. Lastly, right now I only know what character is going to use one of the other players (a human rogue), and I know that the other two aren't really good at all as casters.

In normal conditions, I would be able to make a competent first-liner without a sweat, but the lack of magic items and the uncertainty of the existence/usefulness of casters makes me wonder if usual strategies work...

For starters, I'm allowed to use core, Dragonlance Campaign Setting (Yes, it will be a Dragonlance campaign) and Tome of Battle (non-"magical" maneuvers only. Also, we are playing before the War of the Lance, so no crusader) as main sources, but I can ask him for permission on feats and prestige classes from the complete series, if they don't look "too strange to be fighter business".

Also, my ability scores are: 16,15,13,12,12,11

My first idea was going with the standard Spiked Chain+Thicket of Blades (through Martial Stance feat)+Stand Still+Power Attack+Combat Reflexes for starters, but this strategy relies on a good attack bonus to work, and I'm pretty sure I can't depend on magic for that. Also, tripping doesn't look like a great idea, as I won't be able to get any size-enhancing item/spell. Maybe a damage oriented wablade/swordsage/barb (a charger, or something like that) is better in this situation... Or a Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike based character. I don't know.

So, I'm at a loss. My experience with fighters is only theoretical, and I'm not sure how well would those builds work on a campaign like this one. Any advice would be greatly welcomed
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Callix

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 11:11:53 AM »
If money and attack bonus are in short supply, I'm always fond of the Stormguard Warrior warblade. Dip maneuvers from Iron Heart, Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind. Without item support, I'd probably skip TWF, and focus on the + to hit strikes from the various schools (Rabid X Strike, Mithril Tornado, Emerald Razor, SNB, etc) and Power Attack until higher levels. You might even consider delaying Stormguard. Then, at high levels, switch to Avalanche of Blades for Stormguard fuel.

Another neat trick (if you can wheedle the XPH) is Elan (or any psionic race) Warblade with Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation. Meshes nicely with Diamond Mind, and makes sure your important strieks land with good PA damage.

Spiked Chain is probably your best bet if you don't TWF. If you do, Kukris + Blood in the Water is nifty, but if you can't get Keen...
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Akalsaris

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 06:16:58 AM »
DLCS means that minotaurs are an optional race, and they're pretty strong for a front-liner racer, with a natural attack and +4 Strength.  You could even go kensai and enchant your horns as magical weapons or something.

Though in all fairness, straight warblade will probably beat a warblade/kensai 9/10 times =P

Shadeseraph

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 08:18:29 AM »
That's one of the possibilities I was thinking on. Stormguard Warrior is one of my preferred tactical feats, and I was thinking on taking it anyway, but it didn't look like a great feat for a Stand Still build. I even thought about Deep impact (the original build I had in mind was something like Swordsage/warblade+Warmind) But the DM has ruled that psionics don't have a place on Krynn. Also, Blood in the water would be great, given the low magic items scenario, but I'm not wasting a feat on improved critical, and I don't think I can find a keen weapon. Finding two would be a one in a million chance.

Also, I'm going to need every extra feat I can get, so I will have to pass on minotaurs. And I want to make a tactic warrior, which means that the ability penalties hurt a lot.

Lately, a warblade dervish with elusive target, stormguard warrior and improved trip (and maybe Defensive Throw, if I can fit it in) is looking great. It can still use more offensive tactics, or it can just become a tripping machine. That said, I would have to use a guisarme. If only i could use trip attempts to fuel Combat Rhythm...

Let's see:
I can get Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise can be obtained at level 5 with two fighter levels. Improved Trip at level 6, because Elusive Target without it isn't too useful. That would mean that Elusive Target would have to be relegated to level 9. Warblade 5 would grant Ironheart Aura. Stormguard warrior at level 12 hurts, but I can't think of any way to gain it before that. Short Haft would be great, but this is a mobility build, so it shouldn't be needed. The rest of the feats (15, 18 and maybe warblade 10) aren't all that important, because I don't even know if we will go that far.

So, reordering it a little, and delaying Dervish a level to get more power on the early levels, we get:
Initial Character:[/u]
Human (trait: musclebound)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11
1-Warblade 1: Weapon focus (guisarme), Power Attack | Maneuvers known and readied: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Douse the Flames, Moment of Perfect Mind. Stances: Punishing Strike.
2-Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
3-Fighter 2: Improved Knockdown, Dodge

Later, I would go Warblade until CL 6, and after that, I would mix Warblade and Dervish.

It's not a build set in stone, and, in fact, it's only a quick draw. Those first levels look great, but I'm not too sure on how well it will fare. Any other idea is welcomed, as are opinions on the "build" I gave.

I'm still considering on taking a pure damage build, and go for a simple and plain Stormguard Warrior warblade.
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
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Callix

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 09:23:25 AM »
Elusive Target wasn't what I was really suggesting. My idea of the Stormguard frontliner defends the party by doing enough damage to threaten the enemy, rather than going Stand Still or trip-tanking. In fact, I avoided tripping as the low-magic environment means less Strength buffs and size increases. Spiked Chain is just good enough for a serious damage weapon.

Also, I hate delaying maneuvers. You can get Time Stands Still as a 9th level maneuver. Don't give it up lightly.
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Shadeseraph

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 09:54:59 AM »
I know you weren't suggesting Elusive :P. Sorry if my post could be confusing. It was my own idea. I didn't wanted to use a "pure damage dealer", so I was looking for other ways to accomplish the BC i want. The other players aren't optimizers (more like the type kick-to-the-door), and outshine them too much on damage would create some distensions, as damage is the first thing people see, so going BC would solve party problems. But the reality is that in a low magic-item situation, BC is going to be difficult, so maybe I will just stick to damage. If I go that route (Damage), your idea is what I was thinking on.

Also, I highly doubt that we will reach level 17.

Another idea that happens to come to mind... The Song of recklessness (level 3 ability from War Chanter) does something similar to Shock Trooper Headless charge, but without the need for a charge. Maybe It can help with Stand Still. And with Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit, I can turn the loss of armor into a win... But I still can't pass through the 10' range limit.

Well, in the end, I still want to find a decent BC non spellcaster character. But I feel that a druid with augment convocation can do it far better than me in these conditions, so maybe I'll stick to what a melee character can do well in this conditions... damage.
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 02:16:10 PM »
Ok, finally, I decided to change the build because of my inability to create a decent BC in a low magic setting. It's more inline with what Callix and Akalsaris suggested. It's simple, and anyway I don't know how the DM works, so I'm better with a simple and flexible build.

Race: minotaur (DLCS)
Class: Warblade 3

Stats:
Str 16+4
Dex 12-2
Con 15
Int 13-2
Wis 12
Cha 11-2

Feats:
1-Power Attack
3-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)

Maneuvers:
1-Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Douse the Flames, Sudden Leap, Charging Minotaur (Sorry, It's a minotaur. He have to have it)
2-Emerald Razor

Stances:
1-Punishing Stance

Skills:
Concentration 7
Jump 7
Tumble 7
Intimidate 7

Equipment:
-Masterwork Spiked Chain.
-Masterwork Breastplate.
-Standard Combatant Baggage.
-No idea.

I'm gonna be a BDF for the first time in my life xD.

Opinions?
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

blargney the second

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Re: Newbie tactical first-liner
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 07:29:21 PM »
Heavy armor is nice when you've got Dex 10.  Warblade 1/fighter 2/warblade X is an easy way to get proficiency with heavy armor, and I strongly doubt that two bonus feats have ever made a melee fighter worse.  You're only one level behind on the initiator level, and the feats should be ample compensation for that.
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