WBL usage

[Drammor]

If my character has the feats and spells required to create the kinds of equipment they have on them, then when creating a high level character, do I pay the market price or the crafting price for magic items?

[oslecamo]

Completely up to your DM. Some will let you do it, others not, and others will let you do it but also make you start a level behind to represent the exp you spent in item-crafting. Either way, ask first.

[wotmaniac]

this is why (when starting at higher levels) I tell my players their starting xp, as opposed to starting level.

[Drammor]

Oh, that does make sense, doesn't it? Clever.

[RobbyPants]

this is why (when starting at higher levels) I tell my players their starting xp, as opposed to starting level.

Which does and doesn't make sense. The whole XP-is-a-river model that 3E uses lets people behind in XP (well, behind in level) gain XP at a faster rate, thus, letting them catch up.

So, if we assumed they crafted all of their items last week, then deducting it from the start would make sense. Assuming they'd been crafting them throughout their career, they'd likely be down a fraction of the XP, if any at all. And, even if you do ding them the entire amount, if you dole out XP per the DMG's guidelines, they'll actually pull ahead in XP compared to the rest of the group.

Personally, if they invested in the item creation feat, I'd let them buy at half cost and call it a day.

[Sinfire Titan]

this is why (when starting at higher levels) I tell my players their starting xp, as opposed to starting level.

Which does and doesn't make sense. The whole XP-is-a-river model that 3E uses lets people behind in XP (well, behind in level) gain XP at a faster rate, thus, letting them catch up.

Except the DMG recommends starting players off at the halfway point between levels if you are starting above 1st (a 2nd level character would have 4000XP at the start of his career).

[oslecamo]

So, if we assumed they crafted all of their items last week, then deducting it from the start would make sense. Assuming they'd been crafting them throughout their career, they'd likely be down a fraction of the XP, if any at all.

Considering they'll be crafting equipment apropriate to their level, abilities and current wealth, they could only beliavably have crafted it last week. They couldn't really have crafted that super staff back in their earlier days when they didn't have enough CL, feats and raw resources.

[Nachofan99]

I know there is quite a bit contention on this and this is exactly the forum for this kind of topic.

I think the rules are pretty clear - but that does not mean they make sense or are the right thing to use.  Firstly, you use the crafting rules and you pay a fractional cost - it's significantly cheaper.  However, the rules get a little muddy because they do make use of terms like "Price, Value, Cost" and they are honestly not really well defined.  I would throw out some rules text but everytime I do, no one bothers to read it.

No matter the numbers used, the following logic still applies.

BECAUSE "XP is a river" and people behind catch up faster...
THEN using XP to craft is barely or even not *AT ALL* a "balanced choice" (e.g. it's  *BASICALLY* not a disadvantage, it's pretty much purely advantageous)
THIS MEANS while the rest of the party had "50,000gp in items" only 1 of your players, the crafter, had "100,000gp in items".
IN ONE LEVEL the crafter will have the same or more XP and MASSIVELY more items.  Don't forget retraining and PsyRef et. al.

I cannot see this as being fair to the other players, ever.

This also interacts so incredibly well with "Psychic Reformation",(or re-training or whatever), to craft everything yourself at start and then PsyRef your crafting feats back into actual useful feats.  Now you have a TON of extra gold for a *fractional amount* of XP; oh, and after a few fights you will catch up.  That's absurd.  You might as well let everyone start with double wealth by level and remove crafting if that's what you want - because that IS the outcome.

I find that using crafting to abuse Wealth By Level is exactly the same as using Skills to abuse Wealth By Level or using Salt Cows or anything else.

[RobbyPants]

Except the DMG recommends starting players off at the halfway point between levels if you are starting above 1st (a 2nd level character would have 4000XP at the start of his career).

(2000 XP technically, but I see your point.)

This would keep them gaining the same amount of XP as the other PCs, assuming they didn't blow so much to drop to the next lower level. They'd keep earning the same XP and so long as they were the same level (which is technically not a draw back at all in terms of power level). As soon as they do fall behind (more likely the more XP they spent), then they start gaining XP faster, closing the gap. If they happen to fall a level behind on a small enough gap, they'll likely pull ahead.

Considering they'll be crafting equipment apropriate to their level, abilities and current wealth, they could only beliavably have crafted it last week. They couldn't really have crafted that super staff back in their earlier days when they didn't have enough CL, feats and raw resources.

This is right. Assuming they want the best CL possible or they need top-level spells for prerequisites, then they'd all be made very recently. Although, for some items, it might not be the case, like CLW wands, and such.

BECAUSE "XP is a river" and people behind catch up faster...
THEN using XP to craft is barely or even not *AT ALL* a "balanced choice" (e.g. it's  *BASICALLY* not a disadvantage, it's pretty much purely advantageous)
THIS MEANS while the rest of the party had "50,000gp in items" only 1 of your players, the crafter, had "100,000gp in items".
IN ONE LEVEL the crafter will have the same or more XP and MASSIVELY more items.  Don't forget retraining and PsyRef et. al.

I cannot see this as being fair to the other players, ever.

It's not fair. It's also not fair to ding them the XP, and then to have them start gaining XP faster and end up ahead of the other PCs.

This is a symptom of two greater problems:

1) WBL and all the crap associated with it.

2) XP costs for crafting combined with different XP advancement rates for different level PCs.

WotC didn't really think either of these through, and they cause no shortage of problems for any gaming group. There's literally no "fair" way to deal with item creation under 3E rules, whether it's created pre-game or in-game.

[Nachofan99]

I agree with your assessment Robby, but there IS a fair way to deal with it in 3.X - it's up to your group.  (Duh!  )

The game designers were intelligent enough to realize they didn't know what the fuck they were doing and all over the place say: "Ask your DM - Check with your DM - Talk to your DM - Rule 0 etc."  Of course, we all know that was bad game design.

What they *SHOULD* have written was "Ask your gaming GROUP"; then everyone can be on the same page. 

The "bad game design" answer is "Ask your DM/Rule 0" because it puts all the work and hate on the DM who will inevitably make a mistake of *PERCEIVED IMBALANCE* and ban or nerf something that the rest of the group has no problems with.  Now the DM looks like an asshole when the simple answer is "Bring it before the group and houserule/gentlemen's agreement that shit."

[veekie]

Still doesn't work well though. But the root flaw is the WBL dependency inherent in the system and the problems of taking XP to pay for anything. Theres no real control of how much wealth a given character has, other than the DM working to track all used wealth and potentially used wealth.

[PhaedrusXY]

Still doesn't work well though. But the root flaw is the WBL dependency inherent in the system and the problems of taking XP to pay for anything. Theres no real control of how much wealth a given character has, other than the DM working to track all used wealth and potentially used wealth.

I have a solution, but it involves pretty extensive house-ruling for WBL (basically getting rid of it entirely) and restrictions on magic items (attunement rules).

[veekie]

Still doesn't work well though. But the root flaw is the WBL dependency inherent in the system and the problems of taking XP to pay for anything. Theres no real control of how much wealth a given character has, other than the DM working to track all used wealth and potentially used wealth.

I have a solution, but it involves pretty extensive house-ruling for WBL (basically getting rid of it entirely) and restrictions on magic items (attunement rules).

Did similar myself, though with different techniques. I think Oslecamo posted a tweaked variant of what I had recently.

My variation would be to have a strict, but regenerating point capacity(which incidentally matches WBL and which you regenerate 1% of your maximum per day) for attunement in place of a numeric cap. Crafted items simply cost half the attunment cost....for the crafter. Yes the savings are quite substantial as you go, but each of them largely is a feat for more wealth to begin with, and needing attunment limits the extent of craftery abuse.

[RobbyPants]

Still doesn't work well though. But the root flaw is the WBL dependency inherent in the system and the problems of taking XP to pay for anything. Theres no real control of how much wealth a given character has, other than the DM working to track all used wealth and potentially used wealth.

And WBL doesn't even matter when the DM has to hand out WBL-breaking DM pity artifact swords and power gloves to the fighter, paladins, and monks, right? 

[oslecamo]

Still doesn't work well though. But the root flaw is the WBL dependency inherent in the system and the problems of taking XP to pay for anything. Theres no real control of how much wealth a given character has, other than the DM working to track all used wealth and potentially used wealth.

And WBL doesn't even matter when the DM has to hand out WBL-breaking DM pity artifact swords and power gloves to the fighter, paladins, and monks, right? 

Since artifacts have no monetary value, no WBL is broken by handing them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

When I DM, everyone starts out at the same WBL, no matter what.  The PHB has a blurb in the front of the equipment section, iirc saying that a character came across his gear any number of potential ways.  But ultimately, he ended up with THIS.

Maybe Player 1 got his 200,000 gp in items by making them all himself.  Maybe Player 2 got his from inheritence for the most part.  Maybe Player 3 got hers by running a pyramid scheme and taking many other people's life savings.  Whatever.  They all ended up with 200,000 gp.

Once the game begins, they can craft and start gaining an advantage from it, but everyone starts on a level playing field.


I do allow at low levels for PCs with mundane craft skills to start with an item or two (usually an expensive weapon like a bow or a set of weapons, or a suit of armor) that s/he made him or herself, provided they could make the craft DC by taking 10.  Mundane items being gained for cheaper starting out a) isn't nearly as game-breaking and b) doesn't raise thorny issues of how the xp loss affected the character's prgoression up to the point the game started.  So I have much less of a problem with that.  Also, the craft skill points will gradually become less useful if not outright useless (between moving on to all magic gear and the insane time it takes to do mundane crafting).  An Item Creation feat will remain useful forever.

[Lycanthromancer]

Since artifacts have no monetary value, no WBL is broken by handing them.

Which mean that Eschew Materials is a REALLY nice feat for anyone casting Apocalypse from the Sky.

[Sinfire Titan]

Which mean that Eschew Materials is a REALLY nice feat for anyone casting Apocalypse from the Sky.

They turned that into a focus.

[RobbyPants]

Since artifacts have no monetary value, no WBL is broken by handing them.

DM pity artifact sword is more of a term. It doesn't actually have to be an artifact. It's just the idea of the DM handing out more gear than normal to sub-optimal PCs.

[Drammor]

:/

I don't think I'm looking to spend any huge chunks of money compared to the WBL table for the starting level, anyway... but it looks like I'll need to talk to the DM about what to do with this.

Maybe a combination of "XP is a river" and the standard ruling. Or maybe I'll read Phaedrus' answer.