Author Topic: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help  (Read 5197 times)

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geniussavant

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A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« on: July 18, 2011, 01:02:24 AM »
Okay, I need help creating characters from some very basic concepts but first, the rules. Characters are gestalt and start at level 12 with 48 point buy. All WotC books and dragon mags 3.5 and unupdated 3.0 are allowed. Each player of the tournament gets 3 characters, 2 of which the player designs from scratch, the third the DM makes for the player. (the third character is a shadow pouncing swordsage. The DM made it well, and included my suggestions for it, so I'm not worried about him, and he'll cover most of the skills the party will need, but he DOES NOT have trap finding) BAB is taken from only 1 side of the build, side of the player's choice, and is fractional, as are saves. Player's get 3 free LA, any more must be added to one side of the build. Racial HD are only added to one side also.

From the rules to the concepts: the first I want to be a spell hoarding dragon, from dragon 313 I think. She will be mainly a buffer and battlefield controller, basically allowing the other two to be able to kill anything they'll encounter with a minimum of fuss. For her, I'm thinking dragonwrought kobold with all the tricks to advance sorcerer casting, loredrake, etc. The take sorcerer (spellhoarding basically makes it wizard casting) and progress into war weaver for the buffing goodies. For her second side, I haven't a clue, or maybe I should say that I have so many options I'm at a loss to pick one. The second character will act as her bodyguard, getting into melee to actually kill the, ah, obstacles. For him, I was thinking maybe a lockdown build with crusader on one side and cleric on the other, but I'm unsure of his design the most.

Your help is most appreciated.

Edit: For both characters, I don't know what templates I want to give them with the free la, and I still need a race for the second character. The one of the two will need a method of removing traps also to shore up the lack. Giving on of the character's the ability to heal should also be a concern. If it stays similar to what I'm thinking, the second character should be more than capable of keeping the trio alive, although it might be better to have the first be a healer with her weave instead...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 01:10:50 AM by geniussavant »
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 08:35:58 AM »
Overview

Tricked out dragonwrought kobold + spellhording = nice.  One of the best ways to use the other side is LA or action economy.  -> Do you have an LA for paragon template?  Factotum 8/11 is also always valid and classic.  Or some combination of the two.

For the other ... I think casting is usually > melee.  Sharn are always monsters, and with this flexible ruleset, could also get 15th level Favored Soul casting.  Assume Supernatural Ability is awesome, and strictly speaking, should apply to the Sharn's spellcasting.

Partly it is a function of "how broken do you want to be?".  You could also do illithid savant, beholder mage, etc.

Can you do dual prestige class on each side?  (By rules no, but often allowed).  Can you do dual progression on each side (By rules no, but occasionally allowed).

Flaws?  Devoted to an Elder Evil?  Etc.?  For extra feats?  

How broken do you want?  ....

Character 1

Some random thoughts:

Race:
Dragonwrought Loredrake Spellhording Kobold

Classes:
   level 12 spellhording sorcerer casting (CL 15 or 16)
Flexibility:
   4 levels of eldritch master will give clerical spellcasting as well ... definitely worth it, I think.
Magical Power:
   5 levels of hathran / red mage / etc will give circle magic?
   4 levels of incantatrix wouldn't be bad...
   A few levels of dweomerkeeper for supernatural spell
Action Economy:
   Factotum 8 (but costs feats too ... probably better to trick out arcane fusions & metamagic)
   haalruaan elder / incantatrix / arcane thesis / practical metamagic, etc.

Possible Feats:

Initiate of Mystra (clerical spellcasting allows it)
Reserves of Strength
Uncanny Foresight / Spell Mastery (For the mainstays, so you don't have to prepare them)
Truename

Craft Contingent Spell (?)
Craft Wondrous Item (?)

Leadership (?)
Dragon Chort (?)

Faerie mysteries initiate (?)

A few links:

A rather generic action economy example:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg7187#msg7187
- doing metamagic adjustments to spam arcane fusion is tough ... lots of feats and caster levels needed, but really seems worth it.  It just requires that you have ways of getting those feats ...

My chameleon build ... at 12th, you'd have 9th level casting:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.20

I realize this is too much rambling to be conclusive, but hopefully it helps get the brain flowing.  I think the following thoughts are take-aways:
  • Eldritch Master & Uncanny Foresight are awesome and worth it for unmatchable flexibility + Initiate of Mystra to be unstoppable.
  • Action Economy is the next route to power (and if done via metamagic, this also will make you deadly with offensive spells, and, feats permitting, make it even harder to stop you from casting with still+silent)
  • After action economy, then other tricks (Circle Magic, Supernatural Spells, etc.)
  • I don't see why character number 2 needs to be Melee.
  • With bloodlines and pumped casting, you can qualify earlier for many prestige classes
  • War weaver isn't worth it.  Not when you can play the metamagic game more effectively

Best,
David
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:48:31 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 10:41:24 AM »
I'm going to attempt to tackle your post in its entirety, so bare with any thing I leave out.

Paragon template is unavailable. Factotum might be useful for its action economy, but I doubt I'll have room for it as there are so many other things that could be more helpful.

For the second character, I fully agree that casting trumps melee, but I'm concerned for the lack of a viable meat shield in the party. Maybe a gish? I'd say sharn is out, mainly because I dont want the DM to use them against me, and we have a sort of gentleman's agreement that neither of us will ever do something without expecting the same in return. It helps keep things fun but sane.

As for my power level, I'd like the party to comfortable handle encounters CR 14 from the onset, and be capable of handling up to CR 15 without permanent deaths. This all at character level 12. Most of the encounters will only be right around CR 11-13, but I'd like the extra security.

Prestige classes are allowed on both sides of the build at the same time, as long as the follow a definitive character concept which should be a problem. Dual progression prcs are highly frowned upon.

2 flaws, devotion to an elder evil is allowed, but you cannot change the vile feats it gives(but the list grows from just the vile feats in EE to any vile feat pending DM approval, although obvious traits of evil may lead to pitchfork wielding mobs  :lmao).

Character 1:

Eldritch master looks great and will add a great deal of versatility.

If I can squeeze in a way to provide the followers needed, circle magic looks fun, but I have a nagging feeling the followers will just be fodder. It very well may not be the case, but I'd prefer not to risk it.

Incantrix is promising, especially is I can wiggle my way into cheep, or better yet free, persists.

Dwoemerkeeper would probably end up being more work than it's worth as the DM rarely if ever targets my spells will dispells or anything of the ilk.

As for action economy, I'm interested in how metamagic would work. I've used factotum for it, and it requires more feats than I'll probably be able to spare to keep it up for any length of time in any single encounter.

What does Initiate of mystra add to the build? and where is it from again? I've seen it used as a way to combat antimagic fields, but I've never really looked into it, nor used it.

Reserves of Strength is a definite if I boost my CLs by more than just a level or three, too much to be gained to not take it otherwise.

I agree about uncanny foresight, but probably won't have room for spell mastery.

Craft Contingent Spell may be useful, but magic items could be easily ordered through in campaign contacts in all of my DM's previous ones, and I expect the same to hold true. I don't craft wondrous item will be necessary.

Leadership and the ilk are out as we are not supposed to add more characters to the party. The only one allowed would probably be thing like wild cohort/obtain familiar as they are already class features for some. And before thrallherd is mentioned, I don't want to give myself or the DM that headache.

If room is available, Faerie mysteries initiate would be perfect for her. I'm just concerned of the feat crunch gestalt puts on characters.

I think that covers everything. If not, just point out what I missed.
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 07:38:41 AM »
Hi,

That was a great reply.  You didn't miss.  Here is more thoughts thrown out there.  If you post specific builds, I'll reply.

I don't think you need a meat shield ... the only real purpose is HP?  = 1 feat?  (Faerie Mysteries Initiate)?

Various Builds:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unforetunately, the below build doesn't mature until level 14, but at that level ...

Sorcerer 4/Incantatrix 10
Bloodline 3/Half Celestial +2/Eldritch Master 9

Total Feats:
- 7 Metamagic (3 Eldtrich Master, 4 Incantatrix)
   - Extend
   - Persist
   - Repeat
   - easy metamagic (Repeat)
   - twin
   - easy metamagic (Twin)
   - Still Spell
- 7 general feats (Levels: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12) + 2 flaws
   1 - Faerie mysteries initiate
   1 - Initiate of Mystra
   1 - dragonwrought Kobold
   3 - Draconic Reservoir
   6 - practiced metamagic (Repeat)
   9 - practiced metamagic (Twin)
   12 - Craft Contingent Spell
- Iron will (purchased - Otyugh Hole ... assuming you can do this at 3rd level ...)

Level 14 = sorcerer casting 17 = 8th level spells (Greater Arcane Fusion)
- Can cast all spells as extended, still, repeated spells at no cost
- Repeated & TWinned at 1 level cost

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MindMage is also great in Gestalt

Venerable Dragonwrought ("master of the hoard"" for spontaneous Cleric spells)

Beguiler 4/Incantatrix 8/
Bloodline 2/XXX 6/Eldritch Master 4

Heighten Spell, Versatile Spell, Dragonwrought, Initiate of Mystra, Faerie Mysteries Initiate

- spontanous casting of cleric, sorcerer, beguiler spells
- casts as a 12th level beguiler instead of a 15th level sorcerer, but can cast 1 level higher at the cost of 2 spells of same level

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incantatrix 10,
Can have:
- Metamagic Feats: Still, Silent, Invisible, Extend, Persist
- casts all spells as stilled, silent, extended, Invisible. 
- Combined with Initaite of Mystra you can't stop him from casting.
- buffs with persist

Such a great class

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ultimate Combat Power:  One of:
- action mastery (metamagic repeat/twin + greater arcane fusion)
- unkillable (dry lich, etc.)
- undetectible (superior invisibilty, tricked out hide + darkstalker)

Ultimate out of combat power:
- very flexible spellcasting

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Fun:

Dvati

One at home to get buffed (Use any of your church of mystra free metamagic, earth node spell casting, or cheap rune circles (Races of Stone) with metamagic rod effects in them.  Cast your buff spell with Dvati at home with added bonuses and move action it to the guy in the field.  It could be very interesting to have one at home studying tomes and the other slinging spells and adventuring.  Plus your trickets wont get smashed up then Disjunction times comes.).  Also telepathy -> mindsight is legal

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 07:46:33 AM »
Quote
Factotum might be useful for its action economy, but I doubt I'll have room for it as there are so many other things that could be more helpful.

You are right ... takes too many levels/feats to be worth it.

Quote
For the second character, I fully agree that casting trumps melee, but I'm concerned for the lack of a viable meat shield in the party. Maybe a gish?

Faerie Mysteries Initiate = Gish

There is some +1 weapon enhancement that gives medium BAB

Mirror Move - Arcane ( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a)
Heroics

You don't need fighter levels to be very combat effective

Quote
As for my power level, I'd like the party to comfortable handle encounters CR 14 from the onset, and be capable of handling up to CR 15 without permanent deaths. This all at character level 12. Most of the encounters will only be right around CR 11-13, but I'd like the extra security.

Ok.  You can do that without "high" optimization.  Also this rules out the uber-broken stuff.

Quote
If I can squeeze in a way to provide the followers needed, circle magic looks fun, but I have a nagging feeling the followers will just be fodder. It very well may not be the case, but I'd prefer not to risk it.

If you can teleport / greater teleport / master earth, then you can just teleport to them for your rituals/buffing, then teleport back.

Quote
Dwoemerkeeper would probably end up being more work than it's worth as the DM rarely if ever targets my spells will dispells or anything of the ilk.

Ok.  Part of the appeal is that supernatural spells don't cost EXP -> free psychic reformation, miracle, etc.

Quote
As for action economy, I'm interested in how metamagic would work. I've used factotum for it, and it requires more feats than I'll probably be able to spare to keep it up for any length of time in any single encounter.

Basically, you get a lot of metamagic reducers.  A sketch:
Easy Metamagic (Twin), Easy Metamagic(Repeat), Incantatrix 10 for Improved Metamagic, Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion), Practical Metamagic (Twin).

You can cast a twinned, repeated greater Arcane fusion
-> 1 8th level slot = 4 7th and 4 4th.

Quote
What does Initiate of mystra add to the build? and where is it from again? I've seen it used as a way to combat antimagic fields, but I've never really looked into it, nor used it.

Primarily, it lets you cast in antimagic and dead magic.

Quote
Reserves of Strength is a definite if I boost my CLs by more than just a level or three, too much to be gained to not take it otherwise.

Some readings allow you to break caster level caps, but given the level of optimization you are targeting, it is probably too much.

Quote
I agree about uncanny foresight, but probably won't have room for spell mastery.

Yes, feat tight.  Too many good choices.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 07:33:40 PM »
I'm not going to tackle those posts, but here is what I'm thinking of build wise after reading through everything.

Character 1:
 If my DM will allow Ultimate magus concidering that I'm only using it to shore up my socrerer casting, not give myself a third casting class.
Race: Loredrake spellhoarding Kobold with major bloodline (major bloodline will count as the free 3 la each character gets.)
Flaws: Vulnerable, noncombative (open to change)
Flawed Feats: Faerie mysteries initiate, Extend spell
1 sorcerer//beguiler: dragonwrought Kobold
2 sorcerer//Beguiler
3 sorcerer//Beguiler: Draconic reservoir
4 sorcerer//Beguiler: Iron will(bought for 3000 gp)
5 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
6 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Versatile spell
7 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Persistent spell(from EM)
8 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
9 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Easy metamagic(persistent spell)(from UM), Practical metamagic(persistent spell)
10 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: open metamagic (from EM)
11 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
12 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: open

If not:

Race: Loredrake spellhoarding Kobold with major bloodline (major bloodline will count as the free 3 la each character gets.)
Flaws: Vulnerable, noncombative (open to change)
Flawed Feats: Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Extend spell
1 Sorcerer// xxx: dragonwrought Kobold
2 Sorcerer// xxx
3 Sorcerer// xxx: Draconic reservoir
4 Sorcerer// xxx :Iron will(bought for 3000 gp)
5 Incantrix//Eldritch master
6 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Persistent spell
7 Incantrix//Eldritch master: twin spell (from EM)
8 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Easy metamagic:twin (From Inc)
9 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Repeat spell
10 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Easy metamagic: repeat (from EM)
11 Incantrix//Eldritch master
12 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Craft contingent spell, open metamagic (from Inc)

I can't find practiced metamagic so it's not included yet.


I'll post a possible sketch of the second character later today if I get a chance.
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

geniussavant

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 08:09:50 PM »
Character two:

Race:
Flaws:
Flawed Feats: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
1 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader: Persist Spell, Extend Spell (from Planning domain), Extra Turning (from Undeath Domain), Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain)
2 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
3 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader: Divine metamagic: Persistent spell
4 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
5 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
6 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Extra turning(or open)
7 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
8 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
9 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Extra Turning(or open)
10 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
11 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
12 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Robilar's gambit

Thoughts on both characters?
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 04:55:48 AM »
I'm not going to tackle those posts, but here is what I'm thinking of build wise after reading through everything.

Character 1:
 If my DM will allow Ultimate magus concidering that I'm only using it to shore up my socrerer casting, not give myself a third casting class.
Race: Loredrake spellhoarding Kobold with major bloodline (major bloodline will count as the free 3 la each character gets.)
Flaws: Vulnerable, noncombative (open to change)
Flawed Feats: Faerie mysteries initiate, Extend spell
1 sorcerer//beguiler: dragonwrought Kobold
2 sorcerer//Beguiler
3 sorcerer//Beguiler: Draconic reservoir
4 sorcerer//Beguiler: Iron will(bought for 3000 gp)
5 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
6 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Versatile spell
7 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Persistent spell(from EM)
8 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
9 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: Easy metamagic(persistent spell)(from UM), Practical metamagic(persistent spell)
10 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: open metamagic (from EM)
11 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus
12 Eldritch master//Ultimate magus: open

I am assuming that you are using Eldritch mage's ability on the Beguiler, so that you can spontanouesly cast any Arcane, Divine, or Beguiler spell of 6th level?

If you add Heighten spell, then you could also give up 2 6th level spells to cast 1 7th level spell as a beguiler:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816.msg86467#msg86467

I think the below build is more powerful (even though you lose the spontanaeity), because UM only allows you to sack spells for 1 metamagic effect, not multiple.

Finally, you could qualify for EM 1 level earlier, giving you a few more perks, an extra level of something else, etc.

Quote
If not:

Race: Loredrake spellhoarding Kobold with major bloodline (major bloodline will count as the free 3 la each character gets.)
Flaws: Vulnerable, noncombative (open to change)
Flawed Feats: Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Extend spell
1 Sorcerer// xxx: dragonwrought Kobold
2 Sorcerer// xxx
3 Sorcerer// xxx: Draconic reservoir
4 Sorcerer// xxx :Iron will(bought for 3000 gp)
5 Incantrix//Eldritch master
6 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Persistent spell
7 Incantrix//Eldritch master: twin spell (from EM)
8 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Easy metamagic:twin (From Inc)
9 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Repeat spell
10 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Easy metamagic: repeat (from EM)
11 Incantrix//Eldritch master
12 Incantrix//Eldritch master: Craft contingent spell, open metamagic (from Inc)

I can't find practiced metamagic so it's not included yet.

Sorry - mis-spoke.  It is "practical metamagic", from races of the dragon p101.

Once again, can take Eldritch Master 1 level earlier.  (Although it might not matter, as you might want templates or some such).

Incantatrix gives a bonus metamagic feat at 1st level, so you have 2 unassigned bonus metamagic feats -> repeat and persistent go in those 2 slots.  ->

2 unassigned feats -> practical metamagic (repeat) and practical metamagic (twin) OR arcane thesis (arcane fusion)
-- if you are going this route, aggressively reducing metamagic is important.  In 2 levels, when you get the incantatrix capstone, you'll be rockin'

4 unassigned levels -> I'm not sure.  Perhaps Half-Celestial (+2 based on BoED?) and Half-Fiend (+4, but really the mirror of Half-Celestial, so possibly allowed at +2).  This would give +6 or +8 to most attributes, which is quite nice.  (Better saves, DCs, bonus spells, HP, etc.). 

Best,
David



Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 05:17:30 AM »
Character two:

Race:
Flaws:
Flawed Feats: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
1 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader: Persist Spell, Extend Spell (from Planning domain), Extra Turning (from Undeath Domain), Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain)
2 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
3 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader: Divine metamagic: Persistent spell
4 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
5 Cloistered Cleric//Crusader
6 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Extra turning(or open)
7 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
8 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
9 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Extra Turning(or open)
10 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
11 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator
12 Cloistered Cleric//Ruby knight Vindicator: Robilar's gambit

Thoughts on both characters?

Here, I would say that you don't need to take persist or extend ... let the incantatrix use metamagic effect to persist this cleric's spells, if desired.

However, DMM(quicken) would allow you to use the Ruby Knight Vindicator's turns to quicken ~4-5 spells per day, potentially all in the same round, which is nice (albeit expensive).

If this one was a dragonwrought Wyrm of War, this would give you a few extra bonus feats (1/4 levels, in return for dragonwrought at 1st level).

No point in taking Cloistered Cleric for many of the levels of Ruby Knight Vindicator.  It could be good to make this Charisma focused (which will give many more turn attempts), Prestige Paladin 2 (cha to saves, access to paladin only spells), battle's blessing. 

However, in retrospect, this is merely good.

An alternative below.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 05:37:06 AM »
Race: Sylph
Attribute: Cha High?
Sylph 3/+2LA/Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2
Factotum 12
feats: Ascetic Mage, font of inspiratino * 6

Assuming your DM ok's it, Sylph has casting = HD+4 as sorcerer.
6 feats (2 Flaws + 1, 3, 6, 9, 12) of Font of Inspiration
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606
- start combat with 9 standard actions + 1 full round action

Cha to Saves, Cha to AC, Evasion, Spell Reflection, Constant Improved Invisibility,
Bonus feats: 2 bonus fighter feats, 2 bonus monk feats, trapfinding - fit in one feat chain.
Sorcerer CL 16

Perhaps this should have more offensive punch.  Hmm.  Tough decisions...you could also go a bunch of templates after Sylph, which would make it better all-around.  This is probably a better way.  Sorcerer Casting, amazing stats, factotum is a pretty good combo.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
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  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 05:42:20 AM »
Character 1:

Unfortunately, the second build cannot use practical metamagic as it requires that the spell be cast spontaneously.

Your assumption on the usage of EM's ability for the first character is correct.

A question I have is that if the character's main role is buffing and battlefield control, is metamagic the route to go?

I'm going to do some digging into templates for the 4 open levels. Intelligence bonuses are hard to come by, especially without changing type(so the character still qualifies for spellhoarding), but I'm bound to find something worth while.

Character 2:

I'll wait on the metamagic to see if that's the way the first character goes.

Dragonwrought Wyrm of War sounds great. For some reason I never think of any of the archetypes besides loredrake.

How I forgot the RKV advances casting after fisrt, I don't know. I'll remedy that next time I post a build skeleton. 2 levels of paladin sound good with battle blessing. Maybe the DM will drop ride and mounted combat from the prereqs if I give up the mount from it. I'll find something else to fill the rest of the levels, but I'm always open to suggestions.

Um, wouldn't the Sylph's casting be only racial HD?
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 05:54:05 AM »
Character 1:

Unfortunately, the second build cannot use practical metamagic as it requires that the spell be cast spontaneously.

Uncanny foresight could do it (although we are feat tight).

Quote
A question I have is that if the character's main role is buffing and battlefield control, is metamagic the route to go?

I think that casting is the way to do it.  Metamagic just let's you do it faster, with action economy and all that.

Quote
I'm going to do some digging into templates for the 4 open levels. Intelligence bonuses are hard to come by, especially without changing type(so the character still qualifies for spellhoarding), but I'm bound to find something worth while.

I don't know if these change type (and it may not matter, depending on the type hierarchy), but I think Half Fiend, Phrenic, and Quorbred all have int bonuses.

Quote
Um, wouldn't the Sylph's casting be only racial HD?

Open to interpretation.  It depends on how DM rules.  Slyph, Sharn, and Phaerim all come to mind as having that line.  (Casting = HD + X).

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 06:04:51 AM »
Uncanny foresight could do it (although we are feat tight).

yeah, but is it worth it?

Quote
I think that casting is the way to do it.  Metamagic just let's you do it faster, with action economy and all that.
Casting is a definite. My question is whether or not the focus on twin/repeat is worth it. The campaign starts at 12 and I don't know if levels will progress, and the incantrix needs level 14 to blossom. And wouldn't persistent spell be better for a buffer?

Quote
I don't know if these change type (and it may not matter, depending on the type hierarchy), but I think Half Fiend, Phrenic, and Quorbred all have int bonuses.

Half fiend does, to outsider, but phrenic would work, quorbred might. I'll have to look it up.

Quote
Open to interpretation.  It depends on how DM rules.  Slyph, Sharn, and Phaerim all come to mind as having that line.  (Casting = HD + X).

Um, I doubt that will fly with my DM. He's pretty lenient, but I think that would be pushing it too far.
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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    • Email
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 06:37:39 AM »
Ah, I think this is the answer!:

Also, why not go:
Beguiler/Incantatrix
Templates/Eldritch Mage?

You get most of the goodness of both builds.  This doesn't require dragonwrought, spontaneously casts all spells, has Incantatrix goodness.  ~2 fewer CL, but 2 extra feats, spontaneous casting, free choice of race.  I'm diggin' it.

Templates + LA -> ~1 bloodline + 6 other stuff ... (a tricked out netropolitan would be quite nice, because of the immunites & good attributes/HP), could take human paragon for another feat & UMD, etc.  I keep feeling like there is probably some great race/template I'm missing.

If levels won't progress, then twin/repeat is probably not the best way to go.  Unfortunately, I don't have a great replacement.  You already have persist through the Incantatrix.

The truth is, while we're working on finding an amazingly flexible, Tier1+ build.  You can also just play something that seems cool/fun.  (Personally, I love the Dvati idea ... Spell Sovereign + Extra Familiar (a few spells at will up to level 4), Sha'ir for cool arcane casting, etc.  I'm sure you have your own pet images ... ).

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
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  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 12:20:53 PM »
The original reason I didn't go. Beguiler+incantrix//templates+Eldritch master was because I couldn't use spellhoarding without sorcerer spell casting, but from a serious bit of inspiration on your part, now I want to see the Sha'ir in action. I've never paid them any attention, but after reading through the handbook on them, I want to try my hand at one.

How about:
Sha'ir 12(from my reading of the class, the longer you stay in it, the longer your spells remain prepared)//templates 2+paladin 2(for +cha to saves) +Eldritch master 8(picking cleric as my first spell list pick)

If I need to, I could drop the template levels for something else, and if I really need to, I could also drop 4 levels of EM. Maybe make her completely cha focused *off to the X stat to Y bonus thread*

[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2011, 05:25:24 AM »
Hi,

I went to vegas, thus the delay in reply.

A long time ago I made a similar build:
http://killfear.pbworks.com/w/page/9759728/DavidWL

I'd probably only do Eldritch Master 4, then go to incantatrix.  Honestly, do you really need more than Wizard + Cleric casting?

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2011, 09:15:34 PM »
Hope you had decent luck, latter tonight, I'll try and post an updated build.
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2011, 04:23:02 PM »
Character one:

Paladin(harmonious knight sub levels) 5+ eldritch master 4+ xxx 3(maybe knight of the
 weave)// sha'ir 12

Feats: these are pretty open, but dragonfire inspiration and the related look good and them feats to augment her magic. Can the sha'ir use divine metamagic on their cleric spells(not the ones gotten through eldritch master)?

Edit: ideally she could use her inspire courage and other abilities from her paladin levels when
she is waiting on her spells to still be useful.

Edit 2: battledancer might be better for at least some of the levels to get  charisma to AC.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:37:21 PM by geniussavant »
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 07:36:54 AM »
Seems fine. 

Knight of the Weave doesn't do anything of great value - I'd drop that.

I don't think you can use DMM because i think you still cast the spells as arcane - best to ask the DM.

For the XXX 3 -> 
- Incantatrix 3
- Additional LA for templates
- Other things that stack Cha. (Battle Dancer 1+, Marshall 1, etc.)

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

geniussavant

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: A Spellhoarding Dragon and her Bodyguard, Please Help
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 03:50:07 PM »
Okay, will drop knight of the weave. Side A will just be straight sha'ir. Side B could look something like ranger 1 (for skill points, bab and track feat) + paladin 2 or 4 (depending on DMM) + battle dancer 1+ martial monk 1 (assuming dm allows ascetic mage to work with sha'ir) + mystic wanderer 1(requires iron will feat, bought) + hexblade 3 + witch hunter 1 (requires track feat) {if the dm doesn't allow dmm, another level of ranger, for a feat, and another of monk for a feat and evasion. Martial might be better than the second level of ranger for charisma to diplomacy a second time.}

With all this, the character has charisma to AC 3 times and to her saves twice, three times against arcane spells, and she has mettle. She has evasion too if she takes the second level of monk. I think she winds up with a bab of 10 too.

Stacking lesser aasimar with magic blooded, unseelie fey, draconic and half fey templates gives a total of +4 dexterity, - 2 constitution, +2 wisdom, +12 charisma. The hit to con hurts, but hopefully will go unnoticed with her AC and saves having her charisma added to them so much. Because she's an unseelie fey, she gets unseelie court noble kelir for free giving her a free +1 to diplomacy and bluff checks.

Edit: I spoke to my dm about dmm, and he says that he'll allow it, but only on the spells gotten from the domains that the sha'ir come with, and the eldritch master's ability doesn't open up any more for dmm. Because of this, I think it would be best to only take 2 levels of paladin opening up the levels for a level of marshal and the second level of monk. SO the build will look something like Ranger 2 + paladin 2 + Battle dancer 1 + Hexblade 3 + marshal 1+ martial monk 2 + mystic wanderer 1// Sha'ir 12 taking ascetic mage at level 9 and buying iron will before level 11.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:36:02 PM by geniussavant »
[spoiler]
I see that you want to solve problems. Not problems like, "What is beauty?," because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of 'philosophy'. You want to solve practical problems. F'r instance, how are you gonna stop some big, mean Mother Hubbard from tearing you a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: Use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun.
And if that fails try this


 
[/spoiler]