Author Topic: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?  (Read 8340 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 04:25:26 AM »
When I built Chuck, Chuck's cohort had a Hierophant cohort to give him even more turn undead attempts for RKV abuse. The PrC has some uses, but is still very, very niche.
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Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 04:51:14 AM »
What's wrong with the mystic theurge? Hold on, lemme take another look at it's class features....

.... oh..........

MT has none, has one good save and crap everything else. Yes, it has 10 levels of double casting enhancement, but the lack of anything else aside from a will save makes it nowhere near as nice as almost any of the other double-caster classes. Granted, I don't play a ton of double-casters (more spells is nice, but more efficient selection with useful and synergizing class features is better).

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 04:57:09 AM »
That's why you take one level in MT and the rest in, say, Legacy Champion. But only if you can early-entry, and only if you don't mind a few more missing CLs.
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snakeman830

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 12:00:16 PM »
It's often overlooked, but Heirophant does NOT lose caster levels, just spell progression.  In fact, if you want, you can get +10 caster level for all of your spellcasting classes via taking all 5 levels in heirophant.

Quote from: SRD

So Caster Level is still advanced, just not spell progression.  Also, this applies to all spellcasting classes RAW.

For getting the big boost, just take this sucker for all five choices:
Quote from: SRD, Heirophant
The problem is the important part of caster level is the spell access. Raw CL can be inflated by a variety of means and is largely irrelevant at the levels you become Hierophant, as your spells are hitting their dice caps anyway.

+1.  I have always looked at the Heirophant as a decent class for epic progression for players that did not plan their characters out well for epic levels.  5 levels for 5 metamagic feats in that case is not bad, especially since you do not need spell progression, just caster level progression at that point.  Of course a Heirophant cohort that can grant you turning attempts for divine metamagic persistent tricks might be useful.
Oh, I know what the issue is with Heirophant, just pointing out that people are wrong when they say it doesn't advance caster level.
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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2011, 05:51:13 PM »
Worrying about specifics. :p What I thought about was the casting progression, not the variable CL. Still, the class is just not that good, and I play the game w/o considering Epic (aside from skill checks) so anyway.
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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2011, 06:06:41 PM »
Heirophant   -1

The abilities are not worth it, as the PrC itself does not advance spellcasting abilities due to an oversight.

Quote
Horizon Walker   -1

Only three or four good abilities, at least two of which can't be taken until 6th level.

Quote
Mystic Theurge   -1

It's always been a trap. Entering it with the intended build (Cleric 3/Wizard 3, into the eventual 5/5/10) means you cannot get dual 9s (and indeed cannot get Dual 9s without either Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord or Arcane Heirophant). Losing 9th level spells and a ton of CLs for more spell slots is not a good thing, especially when Wizard 20 provides enough spells/day to cover the bases.

Quote
Shadowdancer   -1

Bad abilities that aren't synergistic with the entry requirements. HiPS is the only one that is, and it's easier to just get a Ring of Invisibility or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.


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Slz the Resolute

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 06:44:26 PM »
Dark isn't always 11k, it can be +1 LA and therefor give HiPS by level 2.

You can take the Combat Reflexes, Dodge & Mobility feats, spend 5 skill points on Dance, and still waste a level in a crappy PrC.
Or, just trade 6 skill points, 4+ConMod HP, & +2 to Reflex for +10 to all Speed forms (got flight equal to x2 land speed? hells ya +30ft bonus), Resistance to Cold 10, and get +8 hide & +6 move as racial bonuses.
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« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 08:16:42 PM by Slz the Resolute »

Nytemare3701

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2011, 07:08:44 PM »
Quote
Heirophant   -1

The abilities are not worth it, as the PrC itself does not advance spellcasting abilities due to an oversight.
If I fix the spellcasting, would you consider it balanced?

Quote
Horizon Walker   -1

Only three or four good abilities, at least two of which can't be taken until 6th level.
What would you suggest?

Quote
Mystic Theurge   -1

It's always been a trap. Entering it with the intended build (Cleric 3/Wizard 3, into the eventual 5/5/10) means you cannot get dual 9s (and indeed cannot get Dual 9s without either Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord or Arcane Heirophant). Losing 9th level spells and a ton of CLs for more spell slots is not a good thing, especially when Wizard 20 provides enough spells/day to cover the bases.
How about making it a super specialized PrC that is totally focused on getting dual 9s, to the exclusion of almost all else? I'm not trying to make it on par with the other dual classes, just a +0 or +1 at most.

Quote
Shadowdancer   -1

Bad abilities that aren't synergistic with the entry requirements. HiPS is the only one that is, and it's easier to just get a Ring of Invisibility or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.
[/quote]

Fairly easily fixed.

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 07:32:05 PM »
Dark isn't always 11k, it can be +1 LA and therefor give HiPS by level 2.

You can take the Combat Reflexes, Dodge & Mobility feats, spend 5 skill points on Dance, and still waste a level in a crappy PrC.
Or, just trade 6 skill points, 4+ConMod HP, & +2 to Reflex for +10 to all Speed forms (got flight equal to x2 land speed? hells ya +30ft bonus), Resistance to Cold 10, and get +8 hide & +6 move as racial bonuses.
Srsly siding with the LA right now...

If the Dark template is available, then absolutely, it's great.

I'm just saying that Shadowdancer as a class really isn't bad, as much as it doesn't work well with the crappy entry requirements.  HiPS, (Improved) Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, and some limited (but flavorful) abilities to shape, summon, and travel through shadows.  Take away the entry requirements, and it's solid.

Unbeliever

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 08:42:02 PM »
Quote
Heirophant   -1

The abilities are not worth it, as the PrC itself does not advance spellcasting abilities due to an oversight.
If I fix the spellcasting, would you consider it balanced?
We have always had it extend spellcasting.  People take it occasionally, if there's an ability that really fits w/ what they want.  We also get rid of all the spell slot costs from this and Archmage. 

Quote
Mystic Theurge   -1

It's always been a trap. Entering it with the intended build (Cleric 3/Wizard 3, into the eventual 5/5/10) means you cannot get dual 9s (and indeed cannot get Dual 9s without either Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord or Arcane Heirophant). Losing 9th level spells and a ton of CLs for more spell slots is not a good thing, especially when Wizard 20 provides enough spells/day to cover the bases.
How about making it a super specialized PrC that is totally focused on getting dual 9s, to the exclusion of almost all else? I'm not trying to make it on par with the other dual classes, just a +0 or +1 at most.
It's been ages since I contemplated this w/out a fast-advancing casting class.  I could see the appeal of something that just added a few spells from a chosen divine or arcane class to another caster.  That could be something appealing, rather than mucking around w/ the whole dual-casting progression thing.  B/c, as you note, there's no reason you really need more spells per day after a certain point.

So, maybe adding spells to your list and giving you a couple of bonus spells for every spell level could make it work?  It's not going to be Incantatrix, but we don't need to aim that high. 

@Faithless
Agree w/ the pre-reqs.  I also think it's abilities would need to scale better or have better synergy.  Maybe combined w/ some Rogue or Swordsage abilities?  But, that's a pretty extensive rewrite.

veekie

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2011, 04:07:32 AM »
Seconding the "Directly add spells from one list to the other" route for the Mystic Theurge.
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Halinn

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2011, 05:06:36 PM »
For MT, maybe lower requirements to level 1/2 spells instead of 2/2, then lengthen it so you can get double progression for 15 levels?

veekie

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2011, 05:08:04 PM »
Seconding the "Directly add spells from one list to the other" route for the Mystic Theurge.

That does solve quite a few problems, but it also raises others. Imagine having miracle on the wizard's spell list. There are far too many ways to accidentally break that.
Well, I figure your wizard would still cast from a deity(and hell the arcane list is better for the most part anyway), and so any deity dependent effects remain. Maybe pick up two domains along the class progression, assuming arcane entry, or school specialization/familiar, for divine entry.
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Nytemare3701

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2011, 06:06:48 PM »
Seconding the "Directly add spells from one list to the other" route for the Mystic Theurge.

That does solve quite a few problems, but it also raises others. Imagine having miracle on the wizard's spell list. There are far too many ways to accidentally break that.
Well, I figure your wizard would still cast from a deity(and hell the arcane list is better for the most part anyway), and so any deity dependent effects remain. Maybe pick up two domains along the class progression, assuming arcane entry, or school specialization/familiar, for divine entry.


Sounds like a valid path. If I ever make an unearthed arcana style book then I'll definitely take that route.

X-Codes

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2011, 06:54:58 PM »
I'm not big on the idea of any character being able to get dual 9's.  Give it 3/10 single advancement and 7/10 dual advancement, then add class features.  Stuff like this:

Versatile Spellcaster: The save DC for the spells of the class with the lower caster level is changed to use the ability score of the class with the higher caster level.  If both are the same, the player gets to pick.

Turn/Rebuke Undead: Hierophant advances Turn/Rebuke Undead.

Divine Alacrity: If the character casts a divine spell, he can spend a turn attempt to quicken an arcane spell of a level equal to class level / 2 in the same round.  Same with arcane -> divine.  Add a boilerplate about no metamagic from items.  If the character doesn't have turn undead, then this ability is usable 3+Cha mod times per day.

Then add a couple of bonus Item Creation/Metamagic feats.

JaronK

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »
The thing is, there already was a fix for the Mystic Theurge.  It's called the Archivist, and it can cast all Cleric spells, all Druid spells, and virtually all Wizard/Sorc spells.  Also all Bard spells.  It just has trouble getting them all and doesn't get more spells than a Wizard (well, a few more if your stats aren't hight enough).

JaronK

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2011, 09:58:32 PM »
Wizard 3 / Commoner 2 / Wizard 14 / Class X ??


So the problem here is the Wizard is one full spell level behind a straight Wizard.
For the class features of those two levels of Commoner (read: any other class) to "work right",
those features would have to be worth the ascending missing spell level.

No class has this. None. MT partially makes back what is lost.
Lets say a boring early entry Cleric trick is used with a Wizard base,
perhaps Wiz 3 / Cleric 2 feats for trick / MT X

Are Cleric 1s and feat loss = Wizard 3s ??
Are Cleric 2s and Wizard 3s = Wizard 4s ??
Are Cleric 3s and Wizard 4s = Wizard 5s ??

This could be set up better, but the comparison is clear.
The CO-board as a whole, has almost always chosen the higher level spells.

Unbeliever

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 05:06:12 PM »
The thing is, there already was a fix for the Mystic Theurge.  It's called the Archivist, and it can cast all Cleric spells, all Druid spells, and virtually all Wizard/Sorc spells.  Also all Bard spells.  It just has trouble getting them all and doesn't get more spells than a Wizard (well, a few more if your stats aren't hight enough).

JaronK
Just for the record, that requires some generous reading of Archivist's abilities.  You can debate RAW or whatever, I don't really have a dog in the fight, but my group typically doesn't let the divine bard option fold all divine spells into Archivist and so forth, and we're pretty generous. 

A houseruled MT might at least give a more obvious option, and one w/out the particular Archivist flavor.  Although, then again, the Archivist's flavor and abilities do kind of fit the MT. 

Nytemare3701

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Re: Explain these 4 class flaws for me?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 05:15:15 PM »
I'm not big on the idea of any character being able to get dual 9's.

I'm not either, but It's pretty obviously possible, so I'm not going to fight it. In fact, it's STILL not possible in core at all, so it's good enough for the rewrite.

Clarification: It's not adding any more power outside of a core game, and it won't hurt anything within a core game.