Author Topic: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul  (Read 2891 times)

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weenog

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Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« on: July 14, 2011, 12:32:32 PM »
Red Hand of Doom is coming up whenever the current campaign gets around to ending.  DM wants Tier 3-4 characters only.  Item supply and party support are unreliable, so I need to be as able to handle my own business as much as possible.  I expect to need to be able to mow down hordes of goblinoid mooks, and kill hard targets including true dragons before they kill me.  We're to start at level/ECL 6 (less any XP burned on item crafting and/or LA buyoff) with 13,000 gp, and should go as far as 10th level, possibly 12th.

I like Warblade for the job.  Strikes like Steel Wind and Mithral Tornado should be good for mopping up numerous fragile enemies.  Emerald Razor and full BAB are major selling points, because with this DM and group there seems to be a high chance of not having anything like enough strength enhancement, buff spells and weapon enhancement to reliably hit a dragon's AC.  I like Deep Impact for the same reason as Emerald Razor, so I've mixed in a little Psychic Warrior.  Unfortunately I've not played anything ToB or 3rd Edition psionic before, and this first attempt is looking pretty crummy.

Empty Vessel (LA bought off) Warblade 3/Psychic Warrior 2
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 8 (may be changed depending on advice, but needs to be 28 point buy +1 from 4th level)

Feats: Power Attack, Adaptive Style, Psionic Weapon, Instant Clarity, Practiced Manifester

Maneuvers:
Moment of Perfect Mind
Steel Wind
Wolf Fang Strike
Sudden Leap
Emerald Razor

Stances:
Punishing Stance

Psywar Powers:
TBD
Expansion

Progression:
Warblade 4 Deep Impact, Leaping Dragon Stance, Wolf Fang Strike -> Iron Heart Surge
Warblade 5 Bonus Feat TBD, Soaring Raptor Strike
Warblade 6 Str +1, Steel Wind -> Mithral Tornado
Warblade 7 Battle Jump, Lightning Recovery
Warblade 8 maneuver exchange TBD (if any)
Warblade 9 Bonus Feat TBD, Pouncing Charge
Warblade 10 Str +1, Leap Attack, Dancing Blade Form, Soaring Raptor Strike -> Rabid Bear Strike

I'm not sure what to do with my Warblade bonus feats.  I'm tempted to pick up Run and Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw) to boost my Jump checks and get more consistency out of Sudden Leap, Soaring Raptor Strike, Battle Jump and Leap Attack, but I think I might be going in the wrong direction here.  Is Tiger Claw even worth using for someone who will probably spend most of the time wielding a greatsword, greataxe or glaive?  Using Stone Dragon instead, dumping Dex and making use of psywar's heavy armor proficiency is tempting, but I can't make use of that discipline while jumping, falling or flying to engage an airborne enemy.  Definitely need some advice on getting my damage output up, here.

I'm thinking my non-Expansion psywar power will be either Force Screen, Vigor, or Skate.  Force Screen would help a little if I'm trying to have decent AC, but I have my doubts it will be enough to matter, especially with the size and Dex penalties from Expansion.  Vigor should help me stay alive longer if I just blow off AC altogether and rely on reach and damage output to kill the enemies before they can do the same for me.  Skate's indirect bonus to Jump checks would help me hit the higher Jump DCs consistently.  Your thoughts?

I could possibly go a little more feat-intensive and try to pull off a TWF build instead of going for a few big whacks, but it would be difficult.  We're allowed to use flaws, but we can only have 2 feats from flaws, and each feat costs 2 flaws.


Please help!
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 12:52:56 PM »
The mineral warrior template was fantastic for RHoD in the campaign I was briefly in. There was a warblade and my character (cleric/crusader) that both had it. The damage reduction was awesome, and the burrow speed came in very handy as well.

DR 8/adamantine is a lot better than a bit of extra AC from Forcescreen and a few hit points from Vigor. You won't have enough power points for Vigor to matter much, I expect.

Here is the game sub-forum, where you can find the characters and the few encounters we actually had before it died...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 01:04:04 PM »
Mineral Warrior definitely looks good.  What I don't like is the -2 Wis necessitating a 13 to manifest any psywar powers, and the additional level adjustment when I'm already taking LA +1 to get +1 PP/level for manifesting hour-duration Expansion without giving up the human bonus feat and skill points.

I don't know how necessary Expansion will be, really.  Maybe I should dump Wis, use psywar for bonus psionic feats and the 1 PP for gaining psionic focus only, and be something other than an empty vessel.  That seems like something of a waste of levels, though.

If I take out the psionic bits completely and am not using Deep Impact, what other options do I have for reliably connecting attacks on things with very high natural armor, when Emerald Razor is expended?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 01:16:05 PM »
Mineral Warrior definitely looks good.  What I don't like is the -2 Wis necessitating a 13 to manifest any psywar powers, and the additional level adjustment when I'm already taking LA +1 to get +1 PP/level for manifesting hour-duration Expansion without giving up the human bonus feat and skill points.

I don't know how necessary Expansion will be, really.  Maybe I should dump Wis, use psywar for bonus psionic feats and the 1 PP for gaining psionic focus only, and be something other than an empty vessel.  That seems like something of a waste of levels, though.

If I take out the psionic bits completely and am not using Deep Impact, what other options do I have for reliably connecting attacks on things with very high natural armor, when Emerald Razor is expended?
How about a dip into Erudite instead of Psiwarrior? You're manifesting would be Int-based, which is a 2ndary stat for Warblades, and you'd get more powers known, more power points, and about the same amount of bonus feats (assuming you were going to take Psicrystal Affinity, which is one of the best psionic feats anyway).

I don't think Empty Vessel is worth the LA. Be a Kalashtar Mineral Warrior. You'll get the 1 pp/lvl without the LA.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 01:59:15 PM »
Not even considering Psicrystal Affinity.  Got a substantial pile of familiar and animal companion corpses in the current game attesting to this DM not liking helpers.  Int as the manifesting score is a good thing, and I need to review the cost of the spells but I might be able to work a dark chaos feat shuffle into the starting budget to replace Psycrystal Affinity with something else (I'll have to, no chance the spells will be available once the game gets started).  I can't say I'm real impressed with the erudite's powers for melee combat, but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to branch out a bit as long as I avoid anything that allows saving throws or depends heavily on manifester level.

Out of curiosity, can Power Attack and/or martial strikes be used with the touch attacks from the Hammer power?  If so, where can I find text supporting this idea to cite in case the DM balks?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 02:12:40 PM »
Not even considering Psicrystal Affinity.  Got a substantial pile of familiar and animal companion corpses in the current game attesting to this DM not liking helpers.  Int as the manifesting score is a good thing, and I need to review the cost of the spells but I might be able to work a dark chaos feat shuffle into the starting budget to replace Psycrystal Affinity with something else (I'll have to, no chance the spells will be available once the game gets started).  I can't say I'm real impressed with the erudite's powers for melee combat, but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to branch out a bit as long as I avoid anything that allows saving throws or depends heavily on manifester level.

Out of curiosity, can Power Attack and/or martial strikes be used with the touch attacks from the Hammer power?  If so, where can I find text supporting this idea to cite in case the DM balks?
Psicrystals are considerably harder to kill than familiars, especially if you never take them out of your pocket. They don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe, so really there is no reason they ever need to be exposed to the outside world (i.e. in the line of fire) at all. They're extremely handy for use with Share Pain + Vigor, though, and can greatly increase your capacity to take damage when used like that. They're also basically a free reroll (albeit at usually a lower modifier) for "mental" skills, since they share your skill points but have their own actions.

IIRC, can't Erudites learn powers from other lists somehow? If you can use the Spell to Power variant, you could also learn arcane spells.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 02:35:42 PM »
I'm not experienced with psi, but from what I'm seeing here in Complete Psionic, the answer is effectively no.  Looks like they can add discipline powers to their power lists, and they can only add them if they're up to 1 level lower than the highest level power they can manifest.  An erudite 1 or 2 picking up 1st-level psywar powers isn't happening, as far as I can see.  Share Pain doesn't seem to work with erudite 1 or 2 either, and I'm really not looking to make this primarily a manifester.

I likely will make the change to mineral warrior kalashtar, but if I do that and  opt to keep Psicrystal Affinity, I'd be down two feats -- one being Psicrystal Affinity instead of a bonus psionic feat of my own choice, and another from losing the humanlike abilities of empty vessel.  I'm really reluctant to do that, because the main reason I'm bothering with psionics is to pick up Deep Impact for use when Emerald Razor is unavailable and switch off between them, and that takes three feats on its own: prerequisite, feat itself, feat to recover psionic focus in the same round I make a strike.

Maybe I should just be looking for a simpler option to deliver Power Attack and/or strikes with touch attacks? (Actually what I probably should be doing is finding a way to drive it through my DM and group's thick skulls that it's okay for the PCs not to suck, and I need effective support if you want me to front line and protect your own precious hit points, but trying to come up with ways to effectively go it alone seems faster and easier.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:37:43 PM by weenog »
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
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Nachofan99

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 03:10:02 PM »
Echo Mineral Warrior if you can take it.  You will be nigh-invulnerable to damage from like 75% of all encounters in the module.

What about ye olde 1 level of Barbarian for ye olde rage and pounce?  It looked like you had spare feats so Extra Rage would be easy for 1 of them.  Psywar is good but like you noted has poor interaction with say Mineral Warrior, or Barbarian and looks like it's draining a lot of your feats. 

Also, 1 level of Crusader is always quite good.  Are there alignment restrictions or XP penalties for multi-classing?

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 03:26:52 PM »
My spare feats are from the limited warblade list.  Extra Rage isn't on the list.  I did get a start on a barbaric full-time pouncer, but I didn't like the not having much else to do when charging isn't a viable option, nor the significant chance of missing on stupid high ACs.  I'd rather not use a character quite that one-dimensional.

For once we're not using XP penalties for imbalanced multiclassing.  Unless somebody cooks up some weird disaster, the DM should see it's not making a huge power difference, and make that change permanent.

Alignment restrictions are no Good characters (my personal choice, after the way things went for my character last game, this time I'm not getting suckered into charity cases, worthy causes, and trying to save the world rather than move to another plane if things manage to go that far south), and Evil characters (as well as evil-leaning Neutrals) must play well with others.  Characters will be required to meet the alignment restrictions on classes and abilities, however, and the DM is not a fan of variant alignment paladins.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 03:43:38 PM »
You should really look at my old character... I converted some of the bonus feats you can get from dedicating yourself to an elder evil into basically exalted feats to get around having to be evil to take them... You wouldn't have that problem. Deformity Tall can give you reach without increasing your size, which is awesome-sauce. Mineral warrior + Steely Resolve + Stone Power = OMG why won't he die? My old RHoD character used that combo to good effect.

From some of my other characters that combined psionics and ToB, I learned that even just having a power point reserve is enough to let you take 15 on concentration checks by blowing your psionic focus. Combine that with the manuevers that let you substitute concentration checks for attack rolls and saving throws, and you can see where I'm going...

So I'd suggest dropping both the psionic race and class, and go with whatever race you want (human, maybe), with the mineral warrior template. Take Hidden Talent for a power point reserve and a nifty trick, and that's enough to get your foot in the door as far as psionic benefits for ToB classes goes. Or dip Erudite, if you can stomach the lost BAB. Here is another character you might take a peak at for ideas (ardent 3/erudite 1/crusader 2).

You'll probably eventually want Psionic Meditation to get your focus back as a move action, so you'll want 13 Wisdom for that, but that can include boosts from items and/or level ups. The psicrystal can also hold a focus for you (for use with taking 15 on Concentration) via Psicrystal Containment.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 04:01:18 PM »
Thanks for the links, I'll look 'em over.  I really don't believe the DM is going to go for free feats via elder evils if he's already doubling the flaw price on feats, but there may be other useful stuff for me in there.

You'll probably eventually want Psionic Meditation to get your focus back as a move action, so you'll want 13 Wisdom for that, but that can include boosts from items and/or level ups. The psicrystal can also hold a focus for you (for use with taking 15 on Concentration) via Psicrystal Containment.

Do you really think Psionic Meditation is worth having instead of Instant Clarity?  I thought that one over for a while and eventually figured the 3/day limitation on Instant Clarity should be enough, as if I've spent more than 6 rounds* in melee combat with a true dragon and it's not dead, I most likely am.  Or are you suggesting having both, or possibly Psionic Meditation only in the context of also having Psicrystal Containment?

*: While I'm at it, I might as well check whether my understanding of actions and order in which they can be used is accurate.  I believe a character could approach (move), strike with Emerald Razor (standard), gain psionic focus with Instant Clarity (swift), then on their next turn, start warblade recovery mechanic (swift), expend psionic focus to use Deep Impact (not an action), full attack (full-round action), and repeat that cycle.  Is that correct?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 04:15:39 PM »
The action order looks OK, but Deep Impact only works on one attack. You knew that, right?

I guess Instant Clarity might be better than Psionic Meditation if you only expect a small number of encounters per day, or at least a small number of tough opponents. RHoD seems to be all about the zerg rush, at least in the beginning, though...

If you're using mostly strikes, having to burn your move action on Psionic Meditation might not be too bad. The wisdom prereq could hurt as a mineral warrior, though, as you said.


Edit: Build stub

Warblade 1
Erudite 1 Psicrystal Affinity, Instant Clarity (or Psionic Meditation)
Warblade 2 Practiced Manifester
Warblade 3
Crusader 1 (2nd level strikes)
Warblade 4 Stone Dragon?
Warblade 5
Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades)

Continue warblade from then on. Get a Dorje of Share Pain, and use it + Vigor if you expect a tough fight coming up.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 04:34:39 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 04:33:11 PM »
Yeah, I know Deep Impact is only for one attack.  But if the character's already in position, power attacking and can't make a strike, he might as well fish for natural 20s with his additional attacks, if any.

Regarding encounters to expect, I don't know.  I only know vague generalities about RHoD and don't want a lot in the way of specific spoilers, so I'm guessing more or less blind.  I explained my reasoning for the decision I made, but it's not set in stone.  You've obviously got more experience with psionic characters, and sound a bit doubtful of Instant Clarity, at least in the context of this game.  I'll keep the better staying power of Psionic Meditation in mind, and probably use it if I wind up using a more Wis-friendly build (or acquire a substantial Wis boost and the DM relaxes a lot on feat retraining).

I see you're not using a whole lot of ToB class levels for those builds you linked.  Do you not find them very appropriate for RHoD, or is it just a matter of not having to work under relatively strict limitations?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 04:45:21 PM »
I see you're not using a whole lot of ToB class levels for those builds you linked.  Do you not find them very appropriate for RHoD, or is it just a matter of not having to work under relatively strict limitations?
Well, those builds were focused more on being casters/manifesters than ToB, but I was bored of playing "dedicated" casters... So I wanted to mix in a bit of ToB. I find that the two go very well together. Even a dip into ToB classes can add a lot, and is worth the loss of a CL or two, especially on an ardent that can tolerate multiclassing a lot better than most "casters".

I edited in a build stub suggestion in my earlier post, also.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 05:11:44 PM »
I understand you're manipulating build order to take advantage of non-MA class levels counting for 1/2 IL (I have a question about that, btw), but the build stub doesn't work for picking up Instant Clarity/Psionic Meditation.  Both want 7 ranks in Concentration and can be taken no earlier than 4th level, barring trickery to push skill ranks over the max rank cap.

Do different martial adept class levels count for 1/2 IL, or full IL?  For example does a Warblade 8/Crusader 12 have ILs of 14/16 or 20/20?

Mixing a little Crusader into that build stub has got me thinking... Crusaders typically thrive on AoOs, don't they?  I don't know if I can really come up with the feats for a working lockdown/crackdown build, but if I have Stand Still and the reach, accuracy and damage to hit a flyer and force a high Reflex save DC, I could stall it and keep it on the ground where Stone Dragon applies.  Just got to ensure I can hit the thing...
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2011, 05:19:28 PM »
I understand you're manipulating build order to take advantage of non-MA class levels counting for 1/2 IL (I have a question about that, btw), but the build stub doesn't work for picking up Instant Clarity/Psionic Meditation.  Both want 7 ranks in Concentration and can be taken no earlier than 4th level, barring trickery to push skill ranks over the max rank cap.
Sorry. That's a mistake. :P You could just delay the level you take Erudite at, and not lose anything, I think...

Quote
Do different martial adept class levels count for 1/2 IL, or full IL?  For example does a Warblade 8/Crusader 12 have ILs of 14/16 or 20/20?
1/2

Quote
Mixing a little Crusader into that build stub has got me thinking... Crusaders typically thrive on AoOs, don't they?  I don't know if I can really come up with the feats for a working lockdown/crackdown build, but if I have Stand Still and the reach, accuracy and damage to hit a flyer and force a high Reflex save DC, I could stall it and keep it on the ground where Stone Dragon applies.  Just got to ensure I can hit the thing...
Yeah, that could work. Stone Dragon is best in the early levels. Later on, you might not find it worth the attack penalty. The Stand Still + Lockdown tactic would be independent of that, of course, and is still a good idea.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2011, 06:10:09 PM »
Just because you could take 1 level of Barbarian for Pounce and take, say, Leap Attack (cause I'm sure you're going to have Power Attack anyways) and a +1 Valorous weapon doesn't mean *all* you get to do is use Charge.  Just 1 feat and 1 weapon investment makes your charges credible.  You can also substitute Leap Attack with say Headlong Rush if you're going orc/half-orc or even Battle Jump and still have more than enough damage.  Almost nothing in the adventure has such a massive amount of HP that you need to do hundreds of damage; dozens will do just fine!

You charge when it's effective - the rest of the time use Maneuvers.  Adding in Crusader can help you do both.  You would still have mostly Warblade maneuevers and probably the same IL you proposed in your first build.

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2011, 09:19:30 PM »
Heartseeking Amulet from the MiC is only 3000, swift action to active 3/day touch attack with your next melee attack. I've found it very useful to complement Emerald Razor. It's a standby item for my melee characters now, right up there with a Healing Belt.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Need Lots of Warblade Help, Possibly Total Overhaul
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 12:00:24 AM »
Heartseeking Amulet from the MiC is only 3000, swift action to active 3/day touch attack with your next melee attack. I've found it very useful to complement Emerald Razor. It's a standby item for my melee characters now, right up there with a Healing Belt.
Nice. Hadn't seen that one in Bunko's, but it should be.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]