Author Topic: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?  (Read 11107 times)

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Mixster

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 07:08:02 AM »
Can one of you all please post a sample build(s) with feats and all?  As well as suggestions for Magic Items to buy?

Thanks,
Bill

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Uses the Dark Chaos Feat shuffle once. And two flaws. And I haven't decided on magic items yet.

His main shtick is pretty much using his 6th level slots for miracles which is pretty darned awesome IMO. His best buffs can also be persisted through incantatrix.

The build is still a WiP.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Hallack

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2011, 12:28:29 PM »
If the Changling Dual Specialist does intrigue you then you can still do it especially getting to take two prestige classes together.  AT 3rd level you can start taking Stoneblessed (gnome) and then can take first level of SCM at 6th level.  Added benefit of better hitpoints, saves, and a few other niceties.  

If Cloistered Cleric is in the cards for you then I can also vouche for it being a very nice version of SCM having played one.  My DM often about has seizures and basically gave many foes immunity to my stuff (grrrr).  That was with me playing nice and NOT pushing the power envelop.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 12:30:22 PM by Hallack »
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2011, 12:47:37 PM »
If the Changling Dual Specialist does intrigue you then you can still do it especially getting to take two prestige classes together.  AT 3rd level you can start taking Stoneblessed (gnome) and then can take first level of SCM at 6th level.  Added benefit of better hitpoints, saves, and a few other niceties.  

If Cloistered Cleric is in the cards for you then I can also vouche for it being a very nice version of SCM having played one.  My DM often about has seizures and basically gave many foes immunity to my stuff (grrrr).  That was with me playing nice and NOT pushing the power envelop.

If he's being a douchebag and giving everything immunity when you're playing nice, I say time to crank the CL to triple digits, snag Echoing Spell, and start blasting EVERYONE in the world with Widened Holy Word.  Then remind him how tame it was when you were playing nice and everyone received a saving throw and/or SR ;)

Stoneblessed isn't a good option if the non-racial SCM is available...bonuses to saves and hp are FAR less important than caster levels, especially when Incantatrix and SCM go so well together.  Furthermore, if you can bust in at 2nd level, you can bust in to Metaphysical Spellshaper at 3rd, which makes it all even better.  Using a combination of that class' capstone, the Incantatrix capstone, and several feats mitigating Invisible Spell, you can be casting Shadow Miracles out of cantrips, which means effectively 9-10 levels of variable metamagic can be applied to each one, and then an additional 9-10 levels of metamagic when using Residual Magic.  And if they all Echo with a super high CL, you'll have all those slots for WEEKS.
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Hallack

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »
[spoiler]
If the Changling Dual Specialist does intrigue you then you can still do it especially getting to take two prestige classes together.  AT 3rd level you can start taking Stoneblessed (gnome) and then can take first level of SCM at 6th level.  Added benefit of better hitpoints, saves, and a few other niceties.  

If Cloistered Cleric is in the cards for you then I can also vouche for it being a very nice version of SCM having played one.  My DM often about has seizures and basically gave many foes immunity to my stuff (grrrr).  That was with me playing nice and NOT pushing the power envelop.

If he's being a douchebag and giving everything immunity when you're playing nice, I say time to crank the CL to triple digits, snag Echoing Spell, and start blasting EVERYONE in the world with Widened Holy Word.  Then remind him how tame it was when you were playing nice and everyone received a saving throw and/or SR ;)

Stoneblessed isn't a good option if the non-racial SCM is available...bonuses to saves and hp are FAR less important than caster levels, especially when Incantatrix and SCM go so well together.  Furthermore, if you can bust in at 2nd level, you can bust in to Metaphysical Spellshaper at 3rd, which makes it all even better.  Using a combination of that class' capstone, the Incantatrix capstone, and several feats mitigating Invisible Spell, you can be casting Shadow Miracles out of cantrips, which means effectively 9-10 levels of variable metamagic can be applied to each one, and then an additional 9-10 levels of metamagic when using Residual Magic.  And if they all Echo with a super high CL, you'll have all those slots for WEEKS.

Well, it was mostly for Boss types that he did it and it only kept me from dealing with them direct with magic.  That campaign is over now though.  We died in the last big fight without saving the world hehe.  In avoiding causing seizures which would precipitate other angst and perhaps shutdowns I did not use nifty things like Holy Word, Gate, and Planar Bindings, etc... yeah, then we failed.  In my buddies defense it did do a pretty good job overall running that game.  Just being a new DM some of his methods for dealing with character issues were not the best.  

Back on topic.  Sorry, yes, Stoneblessed definitely out.  I was thinking this was for a Gestalt game.  Confusing my threads from this morning hehe.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:52:06 PM by Hallack »
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Halinn

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2011, 01:51:39 PM »
you can bust in to Metaphysical Spellshaper at 3rd, which makes it all even better.

But the 3rd party Book of Erotic Fantasy doesn't get allowed in that many games ;)

ILM

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 02:06:07 PM »
Anyway the keys are:
Heighten spell + Practical Metamagic + metamagic school + Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) + earth Spell That's 4 levels right there for free, then take that Dragon Feat that gives you +20% to your shadows.
Practical MM requires the dragonblood subtype and spontaneous casting so it takes some work. MM School Focus is 3/day. Arcane Thesis specifically excludes Heighten Spell. Enhanced Shadow Reality and Easy MM are Dragon material so not always allowed. Arcane Disciple is iffy, as is Signature Spell.

That said, you still get increased versatility and ability to waive certain material or XP components and long casting times. In addition I tend to think pushing the reality % is a trap. It's only useful if you plan on doing blasting, and most blasty spells you're likely to emulate have secondary saves for half damage anyway so you still need high DCs.

One thing I just recently stumbled upon is the Spell Rehearsal feat in RotD which synergizes well with Residual Magic and provides a cumulative +1 to a spell's DC every time you cast it in a row. In fact I'll go point this out in the handbook thread right now.

I remember there being something that offered an absurd bonus to Will: Disbelief saving throw DCs, although maybe I was simply mis-reading the Chains of Disbelief ability out of UA.  In any case, Silent Image is a Will Disbelief, and abilities that boost the save on that side also boost the save of the emulated spell (subject to wording, but AFAIK they're written like Master Specialist's ability).
I've scoured all the books for ways to increase my ScM's DCs and I don't know what you're referring to. The only Will: Disbelief boosting ability I know of is the Master Specialist's. I'm be really interested if you can find that reference again.

Bard

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 02:51:41 PM »
Practical MM requires the dragonblood subtype and spontaneous casting so it takes some work. MM School Focus is 3/day. Arcane Thesis specifically excludes Heighten Spell. Enhanced Shadow Reality and Easy MM are Dragon material so not always allowed. Arcane Disciple is iffy, as is Signature Spell.

That said, you still get increased versatility and ability to waive certain material or XP components and long casting times. In addition I tend to think pushing the reality % is a trap. It's only useful if you plan on doing blasting, and most blasty spells you're likely to emulate have secondary saves for half damage anyway so you still need high DCs.

Practical MM spontaneous casting requirements are covered by Signature Spell and/or Spontaneous Divination ACF, so it's ok, it's just that I do like all the bonuses of the whisper gnome, I'd hate to lose them to become a Dragonborn (that I'm not sure if it's allowed for now considering the setting, it will be later on when our area of adventuring expands and changes) Dragon Magazine is ok tho, so I'll possibly just get Easy Metamagic.
high DC's in 3.5 is a trap imho, you almost never get them high enough, especially if your DM has a liking on using built NPC enemies, outsiders and dragons (and the average CR/level of enemies, even mooks, is higher than yours), I tried it once with a snowcasting based build and it didn't work much.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2011, 03:00:26 PM »
Any chance of getting Kingdoms of Kalamar allowed?  That obviates the need for annoying things like saving throws :devil
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 03:15:01 PM »
high DC's in 3.5 is a trap imho, you almost never get them high enough, especially if your DM has a liking on using built NPC enemies, outsiders and dragons (and the average CR/level of enemies, even mooks, is higher than yours), I tried it once with a snowcasting based build and it didn't work much.
So you're saying that the DM will tailor the NPCs saving throws so that they're able to save against your spells an appropriate fraction of the time, regardless of what your save DCs actually are? And so optimizing DCs is pointless?

Certainly not all DMs do that... Many just use "canned" NPCs/monsters, in my experience, and if they want to increase the difficulty for an encounter, they'll just add more of them, not customize them individually.

The whisper gnome isn't all that much better than the forest gnome, anyway, and the forest gnome gets the +1 DC on illusions.

Anyway... my 2cp.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2011, 06:16:48 PM »
No cheating on stats going on at all, the issue is more like that having optimized character, he also optimizes the encounters and often use enemies of higher level than us (a CR 26 dragon at level 17 happened among other things, but on average the CR of a single monster in an encounter with a bunch of them at higher level is at least +3/+4 the party level), most of them have 2 o 3 strong saves that even with a DC around spell level+30/32 (dragon aura (cold) for a +4, greater/cold focus, the armor from the website that gives +2, +10 int, academy sorcerer from Dragonlance for another +4, etc) they'd save arond half of the time, and in my book having a 30/40% chance of failing with a spell, is a trap :D
In my albeit limited experience with DMs I found that most of the time that's the way they deal with optimized parties, so I tend to avoid going that way just to be safe.
On the other hand, huge heaps of damage, and crowd control that has no saves or really high saves (like ones depending from damage/power attack/str, for example Boomerang Daze) still work quite well :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 08:56:18 PM by Bard »
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Aliek

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Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 06:56:28 PM »
Once I've managed something like Illusionist 2/Master Illusionist 3/ScM 5/Red Wizard 5/Archmage 1/Shadow Adept 1/something. Worked pretty well on the DC side, actually.