Author Topic: Allow a full attack with a move  (Read 2905 times)

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Otto the Bugbear

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Allow a full attack with a move
« on: July 09, 2011, 11:46:52 PM »
I'm about 99% sure I'm going to do this anyway, but I'd like to hear some alternate thoughts on the topic of making a full attack in the same round as taking a move action.

In essence, a character that moves up to his base speed would still get to make a full attack.

We all know that one of the biggest problems with characters that use physical attacks is the trade off between mobility and using their most potent offensive capabilities. On the other hand, casters typically get to both move and use their most potent offensive capabilities throughout all the levels. Seems to me this is a pretty minor change and would be a baby step in the direction of evening this out.

The way I see it, a full-BAB character that makes it to 6th level has exceeded normal human limitations. Having that PC move 30 ft. (or even 40 ft. for a Barbarian) and make two attacks seems more in line with the progression we expect from leveling. Even the TWF dude making 3 or 4 attacks after moving 40 ft. shouldn't seem that amazing. 11th level? 16th level? Forget about it.

There is also the fact that when building for "ultimate melee power" -- is that an oxymoron? -- some sort of pouncing build is invariably recommended. So we're already saying that should be the expected norm.

I realize there are two areas of main concern regarding this idea.

The first, and very minor, is that the full-round action nearly fades away. Of course there are a few widgets here and there that use a full-round action, but they have to be pretty potent to use them above keeping the mobility option open. Perhaps say that a charge is a full-round action, a move + a move + a single attack.

The second is the issue of monsters moving and making a full attack, rather than a single attack. Hydras aside, most monsters make a single attack if they take a move action. I can see two possible outcomes to this dilemma, either adjust the CR of the monster or simply don't allow monsters to use the option. With CRs being wildly inconsistent, plus my penchant for simply winging it for most encounters instead of a lot of GM preparation anyway, I lean toward just adjusting the CR as that would mostly be a non-effect for my games.

So, thoughts on making this happen?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 12:10:32 AM »
Hmm... maybe say you can only do this with manufactured weapons, and also say that all standard action spells now take a full-round action (and don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters applying metamagic). This would beef up typical melee PCs, nerf casters slightly, and not affect "monsters".
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Prime32

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 10:25:28 AM »
Hmm... maybe say you can only do this with manufactured weapons, and also say that all standard action spells now take a full-round action (and don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters applying metamagic). This would beef up typical melee PCs, nerf casters slightly, and not affect "monsters".
Consider removing the full-round action thing for specialist schools though, and maybe focused casters like warmages.
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oslecamo

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM »
all standard action spells now take a full-round action (and don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters applying metamagic).

I wouldn't say all standard action spells. Only the best ones. Stuff like fireball and magic missile could remain a standard action. The best should be 1-round casting time like teleport and time stop, so enemies alwas have time to react.

If you're allowing a fullattack plus move, make sure it doesn't apply to charge out of the bat. So you're still sacrificing some mobility, and keeps abilities like pounce relevant.

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 08:02:48 PM »
I wouldn't just change all spells to a full-round action. I may switch some of the more abusive spells to either full-round or 1-round actions, but most of the utility-belt and blasting spells would remain standard actions. Or if I split magic into two camps -- lesser magic and greater magic -- lesser would mostly be standard action spells while greater would be more case-by-case with a heavy propensity toward full-round casting time or longer.

A charge should be a full-round action: move + move + attack = single swing of the weapon. At higher levels class features or feats may be able to alter this, but the base mechanic for charging would be a full-round action. I'm not entirely convinced I should worry about keeping pounce relevant.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 08:34:28 PM »
Would a charger be able to move in different directions before his charge? If so, I recommend requiring at least 10' travelling in a straight line prior to hitting one's foe with a charge.
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Shiki

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 10:16:54 PM »
What of the ways that already grants the ability to move before making a full-round action? Travel Devotion, Hustle, immune to daze caster w/ Lesser Celerity (:lmao), Swiftblade 9 (though admittedly you'd prefer casting another spell w/ this one), and others (can't think of more of the top of my head.. are there others?)?
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Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 12:26:31 AM »
Lycanthromancer:
Not when using the basic charge rules. I go this route to allow other abilities (class features, feats, etc.) to still exist that would grant the ability to move in different directions before the charge. When I mentioned it being like a move + a move + an attack, that was just my thought process behind justifying a charge being a full-round action. It wasn't literally two moves that allow different directions then an attack.

Shiki:
Each ability that grants a move before making a full-round action would have to be revisited. I feel that most of them would simply vanish. This is especially true when a caster is involved. I'm far more inclined to simply remove those abilities from casters outright, then slowly investigate their re-introduction rather than trying to cover all those possibilities.

StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 12:55:09 AM »
Would you also do stuff to boost archery?  As it stands, archery in 3E sucks ass and the only real thing it has going for it at all is the ability to always full attack.

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 01:18:58 AM »
The move and full attack this thread is concerned with would not be limited to melee attacks. Archers would gain the same benefits. I realize it's not the same scale of improvement that melee types get, but it would still help archers out. Other than that I currently haven't worked on archers.

weenog

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 12:04:56 PM »
How would you handle abnormal full attacks like Whirlwind Attack in this revision?

(Yes, I know, no one ever takes Whirlwind Attack.  They might if they had a reach something like 50' long while still striking adjacent, substantial skirmish dice, and could move before WA without having to jump through any hoops.)
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »
The move and full attack this thread is concerned with would not be limited to melee attacks. Archers would gain the same benefits. I realize it's not the same scale of improvement that melee types get, but it would still help archers out. Other than that I currently haven't worked on archers.
Archers can already do that with a mount, though. They take a penalty to their attacks, but with Mounted Archery, it's not that big.

I'm surprised I don't see more mounted archer builds, actually. I think it has to do with how many games are actual dungeon crawls and/or how many encounters start at or near melee range. If every fight the mongols got into started with their enemies close enough to charge them, they wouldn't have been nearly as successful as they were...
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RobbyPants

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 02:00:18 PM »
Would a charger be able to move in different directions before his charge? If so, I recommend requiring at least 10' travelling in a straight line prior to hitting one's foe with a charge.
I think some amount of work needs to be done to fix charging. At a minimum, you should be able to end your movement in any square where you threaten your opponent, rather than take the shortest path toward the guy. This would make Ride-by-Attack actually work. As written, that feat literally does nothing unless you're one square off of the target's rank or file.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 02:50:42 PM »
Shiki:
Each ability that grants a move before making a full-round action would have to be revisited. I feel that most of them would simply vanish. This is especially true when a caster is involved. I'm far more inclined to simply remove those abilities from casters outright, then slowly investigate their re-introduction rather than trying to cover all those possibilities.
I'd allow Hustle, though, for sure. It's required for a number of very important psionic strategies.

And Psionic Lion's Charge gives a hefty damage boost if you augment it.

And since many psywars rely so heavily on natural attacks, perhaps just allow them to work as they currently do.
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StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 03:05:29 PM »
I'm surprised I don't see more mounted archer builds, actually. I think it has to do with how many games are actual dungeon crawls and/or how many encounters start at or near melee range. If every fight the mongols got into started with their enemies close enough to charge them, they wouldn't have been nearly as successful as they were...

Not to mention if the Mongols needed a spot check of 50 just to see 500 ft in the distance, as far too many DMs seem to think is the case.  Or if their foes had the annoying habit of eating a an arrow in the chest from a composite bow and continue coming without the slightest hindrance.
D&D has a lot of unrealistic aspects that make it rough for archers, plus a bunch of aspects that are realistic but just too punishing to deal with when combined with the unrealistic ones.  Like how easy a bow is to sunder combined with the short encounter starting distances and AoOs for firing while threatened.

If the OP were to implement that change, I'd recommend the following changes as well:
[sblock]1. Ranged attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
2. Throwing a weapon two-handed takes no longer than any other thrown weapon attack.
3. Power Attack applies to ranged attacks.  Double bonus for projectile weapons and thrown weapons used with two hands, 1-for-1 ratio for other cases.
4. Within 30 ft, ranged attacks deal damage as if one size category larger (ie, a Medium longbow deals 2d6)[/sblock]

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 10:29:40 PM »
weenog:
I'm not entirely sure about whirlwind attack. Part of me says it would be okay to change it to a regular attack instead of the new-style full attack. A fighter that spends the feats, and has the ability scores, could run into a pack of gnolls and attack each one once.

But, that hinges on keeping feats much the same. Because I've got so many idea on altering so many things, feats as we know them are likely to change anyway.

PhaedrusXY:
The range thing is quite the strange situation in regards to D&D. I once had a group of players that stumbled onto the theory of using range to kill your enemies while keeping yourself from harm. They did quite a bit to make sure they could stay at range or start encounters at range. It was quite effective. That lasted part of a level for the group, then they reverted back to the "standard" melee encounter range. While range was effective, it was also quite boring.

I'm convinced most players want that up close and personal feeling when fighting monsters. Even players that want to play a dedicated archer want fights to be at Legolas range.

RobbyPants:
Yeah, that's a good start. I also plan to take out damage multipliers and replace it with something a bit more sane. I don't mind a charger dealing great damage, but chargers hitting for so much overkill needs to be addressed.

Lycanthromancer:
Since I don't really care about psionics at all I was just going to ignore them. But, having double checked Hustle, I don't really find much to complain about.

StreamOfTheSky:
Good point on those spot checks. Of course the opposite is that characters see perfectly with line of sight. Either way it's borked. I think that's a case where DM adjudication rules the day.

I'm reluctant to say ranged attacks do not provoke. I'd rather leave the provoke part alone for those untrained masses, but then include the "does not provoke AoO" part in one of the entry level archery feats. I'm okay with suggestions 2 and 3 also, but #4 just doesn't jive. Eh, to each his own.

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Re: Allow a full attack with a move
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2011, 04:45:31 AM »
Well, on ranged, my players do a lot of ranged. It's stunningly effective since full attacks are possible from the opening round, but theres a lot of pain if they do get engaged. I'd say keep the AoOs for ranged.
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