Author Topic: 4th Edition  (Read 22501 times)

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heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2008, 05:49:58 PM »
I'll agree with you Brislove, it will ensure that one minion dies.  If you're sure what you're targeting is a minion.  I'd rather throw an AoE and take my chances with missing.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2008, 05:59:43 PM »
You can also pop two minions a turn with the Warlock as a minor action by using Warlock's Curse, Rod of Reaving, and Twofold Curse.

brislove

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2008, 07:09:15 PM »
I'll agree with you Brislove, it will ensure that one minion dies.  If you're sure what you're targeting is a minion.  I'd rather throw an AoE and take my chances with missing.

Ya I didn't take it on the wizard I built, I agree that a larger area is better and I would rather take the chance of missing. I was pointing that out as a balancing factor of the spell.

X-Codes

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2008, 09:36:12 PM »
I own the module, and if this is the unit of measure for "balance" then trust me, WotC failed miserably.  The exact rules on saving throws are not elaborated on in the module.  If they're easy at all to pass, then simply being a Dragonborn non-Wizard will be at least as effective as being any brand of Wizard.

This really couldn't be further from the truth.  A single Blast 5 with no lasting effects per encounter does not come close to being able to throw a Burst 1 every single turn.  Wizards are also the only class that has easy access to both duration extending mechanics for their negative effects, and the ability to shape their AoE's around allies.
There are a lot of problems with this reasoning.

1) A Blast 5 is capable of taking out most, if not all, of the minions in a given encounter if timed properly.  A Burst 1, on the other hand, is actually a significantly smaller area.  You'd have to use it 3 times to get comparable coverage to the Blast 5 which is a waste of actions.  Now granted, the Blast 5 might leave a couple minions left that you'd have to cleave down, but Burst 1's will allow the minions to attack more and work together with the meat of the encounter for an extended period of time, and you're probably going to be cleaving them down anyway.

2) Depending on how these duration extending effects work, they don't matter.  If saving throws are easy to pass then the Wizard is only extraordinarily effective as a blaster, which is just as sub-par in 4.0 as it was in 3.5.

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »
A 1st level Wizard gets acces to an Encounter power that is just as good as an 11th level Dragonborn's Dragon Breath with a feat invested.

At 13th level a Wizard gets access to an Encounter power which hits harder than level 21 Dragon Breath, and allows you to Push 4 anything hit.

At 27, a Wizard can obtain an Encounter power which by base hits harder than Epic feated Dragon Breath, does 2 damage type to help mitigate Resistance, and only hits enemies.

And perhaps the crowning glory of Wizardry AoE'edness, a level 23 Encounter power which strikes 1 creature for 4d6, 2 within 5 of that one for 2d6, and everything else within Close Burst 20 for 1d6.

Duration extension comes in two flavors.  It's a once an encounter power, you can choose to either give a specific creature a penalty to Saves equal to your Wis modifier, or keep a Zone effect around an extra turn.

Near every single ability a Wizard has carries some sort of debuff with it.

I'm putting up large amounts of information on Wizard AoE's because I'm not quite sure what you're looking for.  You've comparing one racial power to an entire class, when they don't even come close.  If you're looking for debilitating effects, it seems most of them are along the lines of inflicting a specific condition until the end of the Wizard's next turn.

X-Codes

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2008, 12:42:23 PM »
Duration extension comes in two flavors.  It's a once an encounter power, you can choose to either give a specific creature a penalty to Saves equal to your Wis modifier, or keep a Zone effect around an extra turn.
This is good to know.  My knowledge is limited to KotS, my core set won't arrive until June 10th.  The pre-gen Wizard in KotS is seemingly quite terrible.

Near every single ability a Wizard has carries some sort of debuff with it.
This is also nice to know, and makes the name of the role being "controller" seem to make more sense.

ImperiousLeader

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2008, 01:07:26 PM »
I'm quite impressed with the Wizard class, it's still wizard-y, yes, compared to 3.5, the Wizard got nerfed, but there are a lot of fun powers.

My main annoyance is that a lot of Utility powers that are Daily, I want more frequently, or to be able to prepare multiple copies.

MittenNinja

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2008, 04:36:54 PM »
I'm really liking the ranger form what I've read so far. The way the powers are set up and such make "TWF" a very viable tactic.

pfooti

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2008, 05:41:50 PM »
I'm quite impressed with the Wizard class, it's still wizard-y, yes, compared to 3.5, the Wizard got nerfed, but there are a lot of fun powers.

My main annoyance is that a lot of Utility powers that are Daily, I want more frequently, or to be able to prepare multiple copies.

Yeah, I'd love for the wizard to have the ability to sacrifice a daily in order to prepare two copies of another daily. That's really the only base flaw I see in these classes, everything else seems downright interesting.

I made a very similar move in the GURPS campaign I'm working out: I got rid of the regular magic system (GURPS: Magic) in favor of just letting my players buy a limited number of unlimited use powers. Instead of learning fireball, the spell, they get a fire-based area attack superpower with magic fluff. It works out roughly the same, but has far less overhead. I've never particularly liked the Vancian system (which GURPS, admittedly, is not), and the idea of reusable powers makes a lot more sense to me.

I'm still doubtful I'd play much 4e: my two tabletop campaigns still have a long way to go, and it seems like my group isn't particularly interested in switching.

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2008, 07:40:05 PM »
It is my firm opinion that anyone who is not happy with the current state of 4e, because of omitions and lack of options and etc, needs to just wait one year.  That will give WotC time to get a few major splatbooks out and bring the PHB2.  It's impossible for them to match the versatility of 3.x in 1 book, and foolish to expect it of them.

Peaboo

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2008, 02:51:13 AM »
It is my firm opinion that anyone who is not happy with the current state of 4e, because of omitions and lack of options and etc, needs to just wait one year.  That will give WotC time to get a few major splatbooks out and bring the PHB2.  It's impossible for them to match the versatility of 3.x in 1 book, and foolish to expect it of them.

QFT.

Otherwise optimizers would be happy just optimizing the three 3e core rulebooks. Don't forget there were only what, 6 prestige classe? Couldn't that be considered a lack of options?

:)


Josh

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2008, 04:55:46 AM »
It is my firm opinion that anyone who is not happy with the current state of 4e, because of omitions and lack of options and etc, needs to just wait one year.  That will give WotC time to get a few major splatbooks out and bring the PHB2.  It's impossible for them to match the versatility of 3.x in 1 book, and foolish to expect it of them.
The problem is not can it be done or can it be done more.  The issue is that 4e has a much smaller range of choices than 3ed.  If the variability of 3ed is 10 then the variability of 4e is 1.  So yeah, next year it will be up to 10.  At that time 3ed was up to 100. 

Choice is extremely limited, that is an absolute fact. 

The real question is, "is that really a problem?"  You have less options, but do you have enough options to play?  With the core books you have enough interesting stuff to make characters and play with them for some time.
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brislove

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2008, 05:03:14 AM »
This is an inherent problem with games in general, you can either achieve balance or options. The task is to find a way to have balance without limiting things to the point of Poker, everyone plays the same cards :).

The more options become available, the more possible interactions there are. More interactions means that it is harder to balance. Basically more options means less balance.

4e is an attempt at a middle ground, It is a much more balanced system then 3.5 I can see already that 4e fighters beat 3.5 fighters and 3.5 wizards still beat 4e parties lol.

LogicNinja

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2008, 06:06:15 AM »
It is my firm opinion that anyone who is not happy with the current state of 4e, because of omitions and lack of options and etc, needs to just wait one year.  That will give WotC time to get a few major splatbooks out and bring the PHB2.  It's impossible for them to match the versatility of 3.x in 1 book, and foolish to expect it of them.
The problem is not can it be done or can it be done more.  The issue is that 4e has a much smaller range of choices than 3ed.  If the variability of 3ed is 10 then the variability of 4e is 1.  So yeah, next year it will be up to 10.  At that time 3ed was up to 100. 

Choice is extremely limited, that is an absolute fact. 

The real question is, "is that really a problem?"  You have less options, but do you have enough options to play?  With the core books you have enough interesting stuff to make characters and play with them for some time.

An absolute fact, huh? Flip through the PHB. I don't see much more choice than in 4E, unless you count each spell selected and memorized as a choice.

Josh

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2008, 12:32:11 PM »
Take fighter.  In 4e you essential have two choices two handed weapon or weapon and shield.  In 3e you have a range of different options based on feats.  Then you can can add more options based on taking other classes.

It is like big O notation in computing.  One of the two always has more options. 
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pfooti

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #95 on: May 30, 2008, 01:10:10 PM »
Take fighter.  In 4e you essential have two choices two handed weapon or weapon and shield.  In 3e you have a range of different options based on feats.  Then you can can add more options based on taking other classes.

I actually disagree here. In 3e, you have two choices: 2H weapon, TWF, or I suppose Ranged. Weapon and shield wasn't even much of an option, due to its weakness. There are feats in 3.5 that open up options to the fighter during combat, but I think the range of powers that a fighter gets in 4e more-or-less cover a lot of the same bases. It looks like 4e archers really want to be rangers, but that's not too bad either, I thought it was weird that fighters made better archers than rangers in 3.5.

I think that the problem is the mapping function: in 4e, variability and choice look different from 3.5. You have to start from a different perspective before you see the options in the system, but I think they're there.

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #96 on: May 30, 2008, 01:54:33 PM »
Two Weapon Fighting is actually a very viable Fighter choice.  With the number of ways they have to cause extra Opportunity Actions and the Epic feat Two-Weapon Flurry, it can be a big potential boost.  Two Weapon Defense is arguably better than a Heavy Shield, as it adds 1 to Reflex and saves you a -2 Check Penatly at the cost of 1 AC.  It's also nice to have a second weapon on hand, and most of the Shield items aren't that great.

It's also nice that the various powers operate differently based on what weapon you're holding. I really see the 4e Fighter as having many more varied and intricate options than the 3e Fighter.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2008, 01:56:39 PM »
TWF on a 3.5 Fighter, given the lack of bonus damage? :/

With that said, the 4th edition books read like the guides to video games. The difference of course is that a guide to a video game is simply meant to be a source of technical information about said games. Whereas D&D rulebooks are supposed to present a complete game in and of themselves, not just talk about it. In other words, very generic, very bland.

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heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2008, 02:08:33 PM »
Sunic_Flames, I actually count that as a bonus for 4e.  Too much time in 3.x I spend arguing that the fluff in the book is not the fluff in my game or the fluff for my character.  4e doesn't bog down the classes or abilities with useless RP prereqs that I always up having to change because they don't fit the homebrew world I'm in.  The powers provide just enough of a suggestive description on each to spark my imagination without being restrictive.  I RP to play my character in my DM's world, not something made by someone else for someone else.

tarbrush

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Re: 4th Edition
« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2008, 02:14:04 PM »
TWF on a 3.5 Fighter, given the lack of bonus damage? :/

With that said, the 4th edition books read like the guides to video games. The difference of course is that a guide to a video game is simply meant to be a source of technical information about said games. Whereas D&D rulebooks are supposed to present a complete game in and of themselves, not just talk about it. In other words, very generic, very bland.

I agree in part with both the last two posts.  I like the decoupling of fluff and crunch, and I think that location sourcebooks will give enough fluff for people to be able to say "Yeah, my fighter is actually a Knight of the Weave without people going "OMG!!! PLay a knight if u want a knight!!1!"

However, my reading of the books did leave me feeling a lot more confused about what the hell was happening in terms of how to play the game and what the hell is going on.

That said, I've not read the DMG yet, so i hope that'll be better.