What makes a Boss?

[Talore]

When designing boss monsters and NPCs, I have a tendancy to make the melee types less versatile and more smashing for a lot of damage. To the point where they can drop a party member in a full-round. Is that bad design? Should the players not get to interact with the boss instead of just facing against a single, predictable move that will kill them if they're in the way? How does one make bosses in general more 'interactive' with the party?

[veekie]

In general, I make my 'Boss' types with three tricks, maybe four. They have one constant, a crapton of hp(maxed HD, temp hp from a False Life effect etc), mostly to survive more than one round. Damage output wise, I prefer to put multiple PCs NEAR dropping, but none of them actually going down, particularly for monsters, grapple is a popular feature(and a running joke), since it removes PCs from the fight and stretches it out without actually killing them.

Each of them have a bonus trick, perhaps a synergy bonus stemming from a minion, or else advantageous terrain that must be overcome(especially if they have to make said terrain themselves). Quick-draw-sudden-death, just doesn't have the right kick for a boss.

[skydragonknight]

Anything strong enough to intimidate them, but weak enough that they should survive barring bad luck. Also, unlike mooks, a boss should have a strong and (quasi)unique personality. The PCs should see it as a rival instead of a quest point or a source of loot.

[RobbyPants]

I agree with Veekie and SDK.

You can make bosses that one-shot a PC on a full attack, but it's not really fair unless it's somehow obvious. Otherwise, the melee-oriented PCs might do something dumb like charge it. It can make for an interesting combat where the PCs are doing everything they can to hinder the boss's movement to keep themselves out of reach, which makes him sort of a puzzle monster. Be careful with puzzle monsters; they can be cool if done right and frustrating if not.

A better solution might be to have the boss be able to put a PC at about 25% health or so on a full attack, so if they make the mistake of getting into melee, they learn quickly. This makes that part of the puzzle obvious very early in the fight without having to kill a PC to make the point. So after the first guy gets nearly murdered, he can yell "fall back" and everyone proceeds casting Grease or Slow and using their bows, and tries to put cover between themselves to break charge lanes.

[veekie]

A large amount of Fast Healing can help too, especially if it has 'shake it off' powers to disperse save or lose effects(Resurgence for example, if it automatically activates each round, but IHS can do that too).

[Midnight_v]

I'm pretty sure immunities to a lot of things is what makes a boss.
Anything that says "you die right now" is pretty much right out.
So you know things like finger of death and disentergrate.
Basically, limited Immunity to rocket tag.
Also having a few minions fight with the boss is important,
I've found because 1 set of actions vs 4 or more sets of actions is a bad deal for the boss.
alternatively the boss gets more actions or things that generate virtual actions.

What would the paranoid mage do?

[braininthejar]

Last time I made a "hits like a truck" boss I overdid and almost wiped the party...  Immunity to rocket tag is both needed and a bit unfair.

What defines the boss is "requires the combined efforts of the party to overcome" - how it is achieved can vary a lot.

[Midnight_v]

Last time I made a "hits like a truck" boss I overdid and almost wiped the party...  Immunity to rocket tag is both needed and a bit unfair.

What defines the boss is "requires the combined efforts of the party to overcome" - how it is achieved can vary a lot.

I'm not sure if its unfair or not, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't feel like a boss if I'm allowed to ask him that most important of questions.
"Save... or Die", and he actually die.
Though I basically think he shouldn't be firing off rockets either.

In anycase there's different types of boss encounter. Solo boss and also Boss + minions.
Though I'll give it to you "Requires the combined efforts of the party to overcome".

[veekie]

Last time I made a "hits like a truck" boss I overdid and almost wiped the party...  Immunity to rocket tag is both needed and a bit unfair.

What defines the boss is "requires the combined efforts of the party to overcome" - how it is achieved can vary a lot.

Hits like a truck in general is a bad way of doing it, you want to threaten the PCs, not kill one of them per round. For full attacker, spread the pain around, hit two PCs instead of one, etc. Lots of PCs being hurt, despite not dying, increases the tension.
Straight out immunities though, is aggravating to players who specialize in such moves. I prefer giving immunity only to unrecoverable effects, or have minions that can remove such effects(thus encouraging killing the minions first).

[Midnight_v]

Straight out immunities though, is aggravating to players who specialize in such moves. I prefer giving immunity only to unrecoverable effects, or have minions that can remove such effects(thus encouraging killing the minions first).

Immunities... thats the drawback to being a specialist.  Futher, everyone is going to have immunities, at some point. Some of them are going to have immunities right out the box.
Lastly, if the boss doesn't have immunities in general, he's likely to die in 1 round.
I'm just looking at what you're saying there, its kinda like if someones playing the master of the save or die, then "fuck them and thier specialty"  so its kinda moot. I mean theres lots of things that just kill you upon winning init, pretty much non of that shit gets to work in a boss fight.
 Now I admit I take that idea from videogames on some level, I'm thinking. I don't want every boss to be a puzzle monster, but damned if D&D doesn't have a lot more going on that a vg, and so many more things want bosses to die in round 1.

Which is why I prefer boss + minion battles.

[weenog]

Apparently, according to my current DM, it means AC so high the party's best attacker needs a natural 17 or higher to hit it with her primary attack, damage reduction such that when she does hit she's ignored (this using a leap attack charge), attack that auto-hits on anything but a natural 1, damage output high enough that the toughest characters in the group drop dead in about 6 hits excluding criticals (high critical threat range of course), spell resistance and saving throws sufficiently high that the magic users either use supernatural effects from reserve feats or sit the fight out, and an encounter on terrain that favors the boss and kills the PCs if they stay in it too long, as well as hindering their escape attempts.

The guy's well meaning but good GOD does he suck at homebrew.  Anyone know a gentle way to convey "you suck at homebrew, get better or stop doing it" without pissing off the guy running the show?  The group nearly imploded after that last session.

[skydragonknight]

Apparently, according to my current DM, it means AC so high the party's most accurate attacker needs a natural 17 or higher to hit it with her primary attack, attack that auto-hits on anything but a natural 1, damage output high enough that the toughest characters in the group drop dead in about 6 hits excluding criticals (high critical threat range of course), spell resistance and saving throws sufficiently high that the magic users either use supernatural effects from reserve feats or sit the fight out, and an encounter on terrain that favors the boss and kills the PCs if they stay in it too long, as well as hindering their escape attempts.

The guy's well meaning but good GOD does he suck at homebrew.

Stop fighting dragons.

[weenog]

Stop fighting dragons.

We've fought a few true dragons already.  They were easy compared to this ridiculous alien turtle snail thing.  Well, the one with the four hellwasp swarms in it was pretty tricky, but that only because we were trying to keep the dragon alive, and then it turned out to be dominated and continue beating the crap out of us after we blew resources on fighting it, purging it, fighting the swarms, then patching the dragon back up.

[veekie]

Well, the idea was to make the boss "Save or die for a while". Giving the boss bounceback abilities through minions makes it workable(say a few minions with the means to cancel out a lose status, and outright immunity to Death). Or just use Ablative Minion Shielding.

Apparently, according to my current DM, it means AC so high the party's best attacker needs a natural 17 or higher to hit it with her primary attack, damage reduction such that when she does hit she's ignored (this using a leap attack charge), attack that auto-hits on anything but a natural 1, damage output high enough that the toughest characters in the group drop dead in about 6 hits excluding criticals (high critical threat range of course), spell resistance and saving throws sufficiently high that the magic users either use supernatural effects from reserve feats or sit the fight out, and an encounter on terrain that favors the boss and kills the PCs if they stay in it too long, as well as hindering their escape attempts.

The guy's well meaning but good GOD does he suck at homebrew.  Anyone know a gentle way to convey "you suck at homebrew, get better or stop doing it" without pissing off the guy running the show?  The group nearly imploded after that last session.

Thats overkill in every aspect though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

They were easy compared to this ridiculous alien turtle snail thing. 

Obviously a puzzle boss. 

Did you try flesh-to-salt?

[weenog]

They were easy compared to this ridiculous alien turtle snail thing.  

Obviously a puzzle boss.  

Did you try flesh-to-salt?

Not applicable.  Even if our illusionist hadn't banned Transmutation way back when and been forbidden to use his one retrain on correcting that decision, FtS allows spell resistance.

We've seen these things before, in a much smaller form, the "solution" (as explained and demonstrated by an NPC familiar with them) is to beat on them until they withdraw into their shells, then pick them up, fly them to an incredible height, and let falling damage get through that monster DR.  Works fine with a Small specimen on rocky land, not so much with a Huge one in the middle of the damned ocean.

Thought about attacking it from inside but there were no gaps in the shell big enough to squeeze through, and the thing refused to swallow when it bit.

An extremely high Knowledge check to find out about it revealed that it wants to eat living things, preferably animals.  Big whoop.

[veekie]

They were easy compared to this ridiculous alien turtle snail thing. 

Obviously a puzzle boss. 

Did you try flesh-to-salt?

Not applicable.  Even if our illusionist hadn't banned Transmutation way back when and been forbidden to use his one retrain on correcting that decision, FtS allows spell resistance.

We've seen these things before, in a much smaller form, the "solution" (as explained and demonstrated by an NPC familiar with them) is to beat on them until they withdraw into their shells, then pick them up, fly them to an incredible height, and let falling damage get through that monster DR.  Works fine with a Small specimen on rocky land, not so much with a Huge one in the middle of the damned ocean.

Thought about attacking it from inside but there were no gaps in the shell big enough to squeeze through, and the thing refused to swallow when it bit.

An extremely high Knowledge check to find out about it revealed that it wants to eat living things, preferably animals.  Big whoop.

Sounds almost exactly like a monster from some videogame. Can't remember what game though. Need DR ignoring damage hmmm.

On another note, one alternative to powerful offenses, counterattacks. If the creature generates backlash every time its attacked, it would be more threatening even if it doesn't hit very hard.

[Midnight_v]

They were easy compared to this ridiculous alien turtle snail thing.  

Obviously a puzzle boss.  

Did you try flesh-to-salt?

Not applicable.  Even if our illusionist hadn't banned Transmutation way back when and been forbidden to use his one retrain on correcting that decision, FtS allows spell resistance.

We've seen these things before, in a much smaller form, the "solution" (as explained and demonstrated by an NPC familiar with them) is to beat on them until they withdraw into their shells, then pick them up, fly them to an incredible height, and let falling damage get through that monster DR.  Works fine with a Small specimen on rocky land, not so much with a Huge one in the middle of the damned ocean.

Thought about attacking it from inside but there were no gaps in the shell big enough to squeeze through, and the thing refused to swallow when it bit.

An extremely high Knowledge check to find out about it revealed that it wants to eat living things, preferably animals.  Big whoop.

God what a headache.

This is over the limit in my book, right about the time the knowledge check failed. Things like this is why I have such a mad on against some homebrew monstrosities? It normallly come off way too dickish in many aspects.
Tell you what though

best attacker needs a natural 17 or higher to hit it with her primary attack,
1.damage reduction such that when she does hit she's ignored (this using a leap attack charge),
2.attack that auto-hits on anything but a natural 1,
3.damage output high enough that the toughest characters in the group drop dead in about 6 hits excluding criticals (high critical threat range of course),
4. (Magic defenses) spell resistance and saving throws sufficiently high that the magic users either use supernatural effects from reserve feats or sit the fight out
5.an encounter on terrain that favors the boss and kills the PCs if they stay in it too long, as well as hindering their escape attempts.

6. As veekie said possible some retalitory attack.

I'd say we've got the things that make a boss right there, but I don't think they should all be on "1!" boss monster, unless maybe its the last thing you fight before the game ends, even then having more than 3 of those traits  is needless.

[weenog]

Sounds almost exactly like a monster from some videogame. Can't remember what game though. Need DR ignoring damage hmmm.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.  We've fought red bulborbs, piranha plants, and a xenomorph before.  That xenomorph was another hideously ill-advised piece of work, I think we were forced into fighting it about 4 APL too early, and nobody had any access to the material we needed to beat its DR.

If it helps you place what the thing actually is (and possibly how to beat it when we run into it again), when we fought the little ones, the NPC whose home dimension they're from called them sqwelkies, and said it was very important we kill all of them because they'll never stop growing, and will eventually get big enough to consume the whole world with none of their natural predators around to stop them.  We killed all of them in that encounter, and later destroyed the mad summoner that imported them, but I guess he imported some more and turned them loose before we got to him.

*sigh* This kind of thing is why I don't want to play Good with this DM anymore, let alone serving an entity responsible for keeping world-ending threats in check.  Next time this sort of thing happens, my response shouldn't be "we have to find a way to kill this thing, then track it down and stop it," but more along the lines of "fuck it, I'm moving to another plane.  I hear the Beastlands is nice, good hunting and fishing there."

[skydragonknight]

Buy a scroll of Gate and call in it's natural predator to balance to ecosystem.