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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2008, 01:08:04 PM »
Although I'm not sure I follow the last sentence of your post, I don't think that your Rationalization of there key stat breakdown, in anyway reminds me of 3.0 psionic. I never once broke down crying when reading your post, 3.0 psionics on the other hand...

Well, 3.0 psionics was the first thing to really try the "enough talent in any ability grants you superpowers" idea. Each discipline was tied to a different ability score.


Quote
Anyways, What you just explained to me was the exact Direction I went when thinking of Hit Die.

Although, with the Key stat breakdown like you have it would it not be smarter to use one of there key stats as there bender stat ie.

Earth-Con
Water-Int
Fire-Wis
Air-Dex

No, because Bending is ultimately a spiritual thing, which is always represented by Wis - it's just that this shows the synergy of the various philosophies with mastery of bending. The reason Air holds Wis as both its casting and key stat is that pretty much all Air Nomads were Airbenders, so their philosophy as a nation was oriented around bending. (If we go with this system, the crazy +8 class bonus to AC I threw out of a hat for Air would be unreasonable.) Water and Earthbenders both look like they're not really save dependent with their abilities anyway (making meh Wisdom more viable) while Fire would include Wis as one of its key abilities and it is -the- key ability for Air.

It's only a variation of about 4 points max for any reasonably built character (Poss 20 in one score versus 12 in their Wis Score) for the bending checks, so it shouldn't be a real hindrance, and I want to avoid classes built entirely around one score. (Building classes SADded around Con is also a really bad idea, because everyone likes HP.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 01:27:55 PM by AstralFire »


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
"Philosophically" I see Fire as tied to Cha (the drive, the desire, both in yourself and inspired in others) and Water to Wis personally.

In the series, Water <-> Wis works well IMO, but perhaps I'd tie Fire with Int instead.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2008, 02:15:25 PM »
"Philosophically" I see Fire as tied to Cha (the drive, the desire, both in yourself and inspired in others) and Water to Wis personally.

In the series, Water <-> Wis works well IMO, but perhaps I'd tie Fire with Int instead.

As a big fan of Cha, I can understand that thinking, but I was aiming for something that goes between "what is ideal" and "what is practical."

Strength-based Fire Blast Attack and Damage rolls gets across the idea with less MAD and works better with existing feats.
Water with Wis is likewise an appropriate route (and is also mechanically viable), but it's not nearly as AoO and control based, while Int in martial feats is used as control and Dex is used for response time.

EDIT: Also, glad there's some activity again. I was afraid I'd killed all discussion. Any thoughts on the seeds? I tried to build them based on Alter and Dman's comments.

Waterbending techniques demonstrated in the show that need to be covered: (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending#Fighting_style)

Ice Creeper: A waterbender can send a ray of ice on the ground, speeding at an opponent to freeze them. <-- Potentially just a different way to represent Phase Change.
Ice Shield: A Waterbender can freeze an amount of water in front of them, creating a shield of ice. <-- Going to add an augment to Water Shield
Ice Discs: A waterbender can create a cylindrical column of water and proceed to slice razor-sharp sections of it off and send them at an opponent. That one's just a water blast. Water Blast needs to, by default, be able to deal slash, pierce or blud damage as the material allows.
Frosty Breath: A waterbender can use their breath to rapidly freeze objects, such as metallic chains, or an opponent. <-- Need to add an augment to Phase Change allowing it to be done with breath, effectively removing the somatic component.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 03:03:40 PM by AstralFire »


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2008, 02:38:09 PM »
You're probably right. I'd be tempted to let Waterbenders use Wis instead of Int to qualify for those feats, but that may be unnecessarily complicated.

It's really the only one I would try to change - otherwise I like the associations you've made. If later on we want Int to matter for Firebenders we can always introduce something like the Warmage Edge (+Int to damage - it should probably evolve to 2xInt at higher levels).

Sorry if I haven't commented on the seeds, but there is a reason I am keeping my comments here superficial: I don't have the time to review the system in depth right now. Gotta go back to work now, actually.

But allow me to +Fu you for your excellent contributions.
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2008, 03:06:10 PM »
Waterbending techniques demonstrated in the show that need to be covered: (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending#Fighting_style)

Ice Creeper: A waterbender can send a ray of ice on the ground, speeding at an opponent to freeze them. <-- Potentially just a different way to represent Phase Change.
Ice Shield: A Waterbender can freeze an amount of water in front of them, creating a shield of ice. <-- Going to add an augment to Water Shield
Ice Discs: A waterbender can create a cylindrical column of water and proceed to slice razor-sharp sections of it off and send them at an opponent. That one's just a water blast. Water Blast needs to, by default, be able to deal slash, pierce or blud damage as the material allows.
Frosty Breath: A waterbender can use their breath to rapidly freeze objects, such as metallic chains, or an opponent. <-- Need to add an augment to Phase Change allowing it to be done with breath, effectively removing the somatic component.

All of these expect Ice Creeper I see as seed mixing.

Ice creeper I would not have just be an augment of Phase change, I'll come up with a seed in a little.

AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 03:47:08 PM »
It's really the only one I would try to change - otherwise I like the associations you've made. If later on we want Int to matter for Firebenders we can always introduce something like the Warmage Edge (+Int to damage - it should probably evolve to 2xInt at higher levels).

That would be a good feat-type thing. *nods*

Quote
Sorry if I haven't commented on the seeds, but there is a reason I am keeping my comments here superficial: I don't have the time to review the system in depth right now. Gotta go back to work now, actually.

But allow me to +Fu you for your excellent contributions.

I can understand that. I should really be spending more time looking for jobs than I do right now, but resumes are starting to numb my brain. What's this Gameology-Fu stuff, anyway?

All of these expect Ice Creeper I see as seed mixing.

Ice creeper I would not have just be an augment of Phase change, I'll come up with a seed in a little.

Well, I gave Water Shield's ability to grant cover be an actual transformation into Ice.

Frosty Breath is now an augment.

Agreed on Ice Creeper, it's too different. Do we have any examples of its use handy?

Some changes: I ditched Pressure. Spout and Wave cover the bullrushing just fine and the only applicable seeds were.... Water Blast (those are very fast, light hits) and Ice Shard (seems a little inappropriate.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 03:49:34 PM by AstralFire »


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2008, 03:56:32 PM »
Um, I have all 3 books on DVD I can scan through them and find which eps. have the ice creeper in them. This may take a while though, I suppose I would be easer to just wing it, I dont think it is used that often, Though Katara uses a very powerful form of it in Sozin's Comit when she is fighting Azula. She is also able to move around in Ice should that be a seed of some sort?

Edit: G-Fu is a point system where other members can give you props based on your usefulness to the boards Kinda like a cookie system.

AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2008, 03:58:54 PM »
Um, I have all 3 books on DVD I can scan through them and find which eps. have the ice creeper in them. This may take a while though, I suppose I would be easer to just wing it, I dont think it is used that often, Though Katara uses a very powerful form of it in Sozin's Comit when she is fighting Azula. She is also able to move around in Ice should that be a seed of some sort?

Edit: G-Fu is a point system where other members can give you props based on your usefulness to the boards Kinda like a cookie system.

Phase Change + Move Water were overhauled as heavily as I made them specifically so Katara could pull off the finale's flash freeze trick. Likewise, that's why there's an augment to not use somatic components in Phase Change, allowing her to just melt her square.


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2008, 04:02:20 PM »
oh, I did not see that...

What at this point do you think we need to work on most? I will start on that right now. Do you think it is Ice Creeper?

Also, as far as the current seeds go, I think they are close to or finished. However I am not the end all let me know how you feel.


Edit2: So as it turns out I am very bad at this but here is my start to Ice Creeper, Feedback is Needed

Ice Creeper
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 20
Components: Somatic
Activation Time: Standard Action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: 5 ft. Square
Target: One Creature
Effect: Horizontal line of ice freezing the target creature.
Duration: Varies
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates
Flavor Text None Yet
Water Required: 900 Gallons
Augment:
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 04:19:52 PM by DetectiveJabsco »

AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2008, 04:22:44 PM »
I'm unsure of a lot, really. I suppose I need to do some playtesting or wait for someone better at balance than me like dman or Guyr to comment. If you could try playtesting a waterbender, that would be awesome (though I'd need to type out specific rules on Water Conservation and Circular Attack.)

Ice Creeper doesn't really worry me that much since Water already has a lot at its disposal and it's a rarer power.

Is there any opposition to Water's skill change? I know Zuki was unsure about allowing Martial Lore to identify bending and vice-versa, but not many people pick up the identification skills to begin with.


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2008, 04:34:42 PM »
Why not just keep it as knowledge Bending, Or have the bending skill it self used for identification?

Well, I think the whole reason we started looking at the classes over on these boards was because we wanted to do a play by post, we could still do that for play-testing, but maybe we should finish all 4 classes first, then a 6 person group could have 4 benders(one of each) and 2 standered 3.5 classes. Any Thoughts?

Also, we may want to open a New thread and Compile our Information all in one place and not scattered over 3 pages of notes.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2008, 04:59:55 PM »
Why not just keep it as knowledge Bending, Or have the bending skill it self used for identification?

Well, I think the whole reason we started looking at the classes over on these boards was because we wanted to do a play by post, we could still do that for play-testing, but maybe we should finish all 4 classes first, then a 6 person group could have 4 benders(one of each) and 2 standered 3.5 classes. Any Thoughts?

Also, we may want to open a New thread and Compile our Information all in one place and not scattered over 3 pages of notes.

The bending modifier itself is probably the best way to handle it, and it's quite simple.

I'll probably do a self-colosseum with the waterbender, I like to try and get incremental feedback.

Also, just nerfed spout a bit. Realized that with its original range, not allowing a bull rush check, and allowing them to be angled in any direction it was ludicrously powerful.

New thread's up to dman, I'm not the project leader. But it's probably too early to switch threads.

Water Creeper I'm not touching until I figure out exactly what it's supposed to do, the description is a bit vague.


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2008, 06:58:34 PM »
There's a very well-argued post somewhere in one of the GITP threads that argues for all bending working off of Wisdom. If someone would like, I could try and find it later. As for the matter of secondary important stats for benders:

A Waterbender only needs an Int of 13 to qualify for any of the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip family of feats. Dexterity probably be more important because it will allow more attacks of opportunity with Combat Reflexes, as well as the general caveats of Dex as a bonus to AC and ranged attack rolls, i.e. Water Blasts. Taking Weapon Finesse to use with the Water Whip might be a good idea for a waterbender that already has incentive to prioritize Dex to such a degree. I'd argue that Weapon Focus (Whip) should be good enough for both, for simplicity's sake. Ditto for the Fire Whip.

On that note, should benders be allowed to take Weapon Focus (Blast), or something similiar, the same way a caster can take Weapon Focus (Ray)? I don't see why not.

I can see the rationale behind letting firebenders add their Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls with fire blasts, it's always illustrated as a very strong, athletic movement.  Assuming it's a substitution of Strength for Dex instead of an addition, that is. Firebenders that choose to favor strength are might be those like Admiral Zhao or the Colonel Mongke of the Rough Rhinos. Zuko probably chose to go with dexterity to compliment his acrobatic style and 'ninja skills'.

In keeping with the fire=drive/passion/inspiration connection, I was earlier considering the idea of Charisma granting this bonus instead, or the higher of Str/Cha, or proposing that the Firebender's Charisma bonus be added to their saving throws, but Astral and I talked about these ideas and now I'm not so sure. I'll mention them anyways for the sake of brainstorming, however.

Intelligence actually seems more reasonable as a secondary stat for Airbenders than it did for Waterbenders. Air has an intellectual focus from the philosophical point of view, and once again would allow Airbenders to qualify for the various Combat Expertise related feats. Aang stated in the finale at some point that he preferred to deal with his problems by 'being clever' with violence as a last resort yadda yadda. So there's support for an Airbender/Int connection, but I'll let someone else brainstorm execution or implementation for it later.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2008, 07:20:46 PM »
I think the consensus was to keep Wis as bending stat, because no matter the Element bending hinges on Spirit, and Wis is the Spirit stat.
I would assume you can take a Weapon Feat for your blast or Maybe Bending in general.

Weapon Focus(bending)?

Hmmm.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2008, 10:25:58 PM »
Yep. The consensus is definitely that bending will be connected to Wisdom for all four classes, the discussion is based around what other stats should be important for which benders, why, and how to implement such a thing. I don't want benders to be too dependent on too many different high stats, like a Monk is. At the same time, benders aren't spellcasters--they're melee combatants with a wide variety of supernatural abilities. If we create a class that can engage in close-range combat now and again rather than always hanging back to blast with their element, we'll have better captured the feel of the show. As the bending disciplines are also martial arts, there should be a reason for characters to focus on the physical side of things--i.e. their physical stats--a bit.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2008, 11:35:08 PM »
I think the consensus was to keep Wis as bending stat, because no matter the Element bending hinges on Spirit, and Wis is the Spirit stat.
I would assume you can take a Weapon Feat for your blast or Maybe Bending in general.

Weapon Focus(bending)?

Hmmm.

I would allow Bending as a general category for Weapon ______ Feats. Ability Focus I'm not so sure about.

Here's a proposal for a simpler deflect attack:
Deflect Attack (Su): At second level, a waterbender learns how to use her bending abilities to protect her from harm. As an immediate action after she has been struck by a ranged attack, she may immediately force the opponent to reroll this attack at a -2 penalty. Even if this attack roll is somehow less advantageous to the waterbender (such as if it became a critical hit), she must accept the results of the second roll.

As she gains additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, she may choose to give up these attacks during her full attack action on her turn. For each attack she surrenders in this fashion, she may force one more ranged attack reroll during the next round. These additional deflect attempts do not require additional actions on her part. Additional attacks from other sources, such as those rewarded by Rapid Shot or Haste cannot be surrendered to deflect attacks.

The waterbender must not be flat-footed and must be able to waterbend in order to attempt to deflect an attack. If she is helpless or somehow prevented from waterbending (for example, being in an anti-magic field) she cannot attempt to deflect any attacks.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 11:38:06 PM by AstralFire »


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2008, 12:01:45 AM »
From a sheer flavor PoV all bending should be wis based.  It's all about spiritualness and perception.  And for other stats: dexterity should be a common stat for forms to use, and for the benders in general.  Remember: these are directly linked to four martial arts: water: Tai Chi, earth: Hung Gar, Fire: Northern Shaolin, Air: Bagua.  These should be our inspiration as well.

I'll get to the seed things in a bit (tomorrow, Friday at the latest), cause you guy have done quite a bit since I was last able to work on this stuff.  I will say that I like the template.

On deflect attack: I'm not liking it too much.  I'm imagining more of a surefire elimination of attacking power.  Not perfect, of course, but much better than what you proposed.  Something like the re-roll at a higher penalty, or just applying a penalty to the attack roll(*) would be best.

On weapon feats: We can just add a little clause like CArc did with spells: bending is an applicable target for weapon focus.

*idea: have Deflect Bending be an immediate action penalty to an incoming attack.  -10 penalty, not able to get rid of more attacks to fuel this (don't have to get rid of an attack in the first place).  This does two things: 1) makes this more "You miss!" while remaining balanced, and 2) gives Octopus a spot in the lime-light.  Also, this opens up some room for potential PrCs based on gaining more of these per turn and being able to better use the waterbender's famous defenses.
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2008, 12:27:50 AM »
From a sheer flavor PoV all bending should be wis based.  It's all about spiritualness and perception.  And for other stats: dexterity should be a common stat for forms to use, and for the benders in general.  Remember: these are directly linked to four martial arts: water: Tai Chi, earth: Hung Gar, Fire: Northern Shaolin, Air: Bagua.  These should be our inspiration as well.

Yeah, but we can't forget about strength and durability in those martial arts either. It's not like we have to worry about anyone ever using Dex as a dump stat for these guys, and Str helps eliminate MAD issues for Earth and Fire, who do quite a bit of 'staying in people's faces'.

Quote
*idea: have Deflect Bending be an immediate action penalty to an incoming attack.  -10 penalty, not able to get rid of more attacks to fuel this (don't have to get rid of an attack in the first place).  This does two things: 1) makes this more "You miss!" while remaining balanced, and 2) gives Octopus a spot in the lime-light.  Also, this opens up some room for potential PrCs based on gaining more of these per turn and being able to better use the waterbender's famous defenses.

I'm fine with this. I've personally hated the Deflect Attack mechanic since I first saw it and was just looking for a way to simplify things. Would this mechanic switch be applied to Octopus as well, just giving Octopus the ability to do it multiple times a round?

EDIT: Of course, the problem with this version is that you're not giving up much of anything for a reliably effective +10 AC Bonus one-on-one at lower levels, since Swift and Immediate Actions, as well as iterative attacks don't show up until later. So its appearance would have to be delayed until at least level 8-ish.

Perhaps it could instill a penalty on your attack rolls for the next round in response for the Deflect action, this penalty lessening with levels? -3 penalty to attack, decreasing by 1 point every 5 levels?

Mm, the more I think about it, the more I think I prefer the reroll version I tossed up, sans the "you can drop iterative attacks to do this more often", which is a bit much. It keeps the exciting feel of an opposed attack roll with a little less paperwork, and it's still a pretty nice bonus. 2d20 take lower (not a completely accurate equation, but one close enough for this) has an average roll of 7, 3.5 less than 1d20. The attacker gets a -2 penalty on the reroll for waterbenders (would get a +2 bonus for fire) which drives the number down further, but the fact that you're not actually taking lower but taking the second result brings the number a bit back up. I'd guess it at something like a +4 average AC bonus in practice.

Also, all of this discussion reminds me just how broken Deflect Arrows is. I think you actually need an epic feat to break it.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 01:53:50 AM by AstralFire »


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2008, 01:29:45 AM »
I'd actually like to keep the a dieroll mechanic of some kind. Being able to inflict an immediate penalty to incoming ranged attacks is more predictable and easier to resolve quickly during combat. It reminds me of a beefier version of Combat Expertise...a feat which Waterbenders, at least, already have incentive to be taking.

Rerolling, or some other kind of mechanic involving a dieroll, has more randomization to it. For some, too much randomization in a game is a bad thing, because the players don't feel like they have enough control over the outcome of events. (See also: the 1st level wizard versus housecat debate) Randomization is also the source of natural 20's and critical failures, the highs and lows of Lady Luck that bring excitement and tension to the table.

In short, a unique and potentially iconic new game mechanic like Deflect Attack should have a little glamour to it, and allowing the players to snatch defeat from the jaws of death now and again with a lucky roll creates emotional involvement. After all, Deflection never comes into play if AC and standard defenses haven't already been penetrated.

While I liked the fact that the old 'Dueling Attack Rolls' method meant the defending player got to roll something themselves, it would also probably bog things down more than necessary. Forcing a reroll on the attacker's part still creates some of that emotional involvement, and rewards a player that's been paying attention to the fight when it's not her turn. I still think putting some penalty or cost on using deflection is a good idea though, because it dissuades players from Deflecting every turn. With the current method, there could be a problem of people letting a fight drag on forever because they keep sacrificing extra attacks for increased defense. I find it a little unlikely because the only time I'm willing to put up with a slow boring fight like that is in a turn-based JRPG on the computer...it sort of punishes the players by creating monotony. I'm not sure how likely this is to actually happen--3.5 fights are pretty darn quick in my experience. To stay on the safe side, we should brainstorm a few other drawbacks or limitations to Deflect Attack and see if we like those better.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2008, 02:03:49 AM »
Well, let's think about this.  AC is one of the least important defenses.  A +10 to it isn't much.  It means that they can make 1 attack/round really unlikely to hit.  Add in more than one attack/round needing to be avoided (easy even at low levels: two opponents)...  I find a bigger problem keeping it viable at high levels.  So how about starting it off at a -6 penalty to the attack.  Every 4 levels (or more, ore less) this penalty increases by 2.  There can be a PrC or feat (or both) that plays off this more, but otherwise it's just one attack.

And yes, Octopus would be more attacks being able to be deflected, with a bigger penalty (augmentable).  Possibly more, but with this you actually have to do something to get those.  Reducing attacks is one way, that I think we should look more into.

Quote
Yeah, but we can't forget about strength and durability in those martial arts either. It's not like we have to worry about anyone ever using Dex as a dump stat for these guys, and Str helps eliminate MAD issues for Earth and Fire, who do quite a bit of 'staying in people's faces'.

HP.  Con is always important for endurance.  Strength is more damage.  They are still important to the characters, but to bending itself, not so much, it's all about placement (even earth, even if Toph doesn't like to admit it).
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