Author Topic: Avatar d20 fixes  (Read 61212 times)

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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #240 on: September 21, 2008, 09:34:13 AM »
I'll try to look at these and respond closely tomorrow. My own work has turned against me though, looking at PDFs on this computer is reaaaaaaaally painful and slow. I'm splitting my attention now between Job Hunts and my homebrew system (if you'd like to take a look) as well, so Avatar's getting shuffled a bit.


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #241 on: September 21, 2008, 08:32:13 PM »
Ouch.  I'm going to finish up my responses tonight, so there'll be a good bit more.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #242 on: September 23, 2008, 06:17:06 PM »
Today has been a busy day. Overhauled Anteheroes some, got this on my plate, then gonna help a guy with his own homebrew wargame...

No it's not......and Dust Cloud doesn't have them either.....hmm....I actually meant this:
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A moderate wind or water current disperses the cloud 4
rounds after you cease concentration, a strong wind or
water current disperses the cloud in 1 round after you
cease concentration, and a severe wind or water current
prevents the cloud from even forming.
and augments to allow more resistance to wind speeds.  I'm not all too sure what they should be.

How it currently reads:
[spoiler]This cloud normally lasts for one round after you cease concentration; a severe wind prevents the cloud from forming. You cannot use this ability underwater.[/spoiler]

5 Augment/+1 Wind Step?

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I know it already comes with damage, I WAS JUST THROWING OUT IDEAS.  Holy cow, I don't feel like retyping that.  Stupid caps lock.  Yes I realize I typed more afterwards than retyping that would be.

Anyways, that doesn't really match the flavor you have at all.  The way you have it, FAS is just aid you in making the strike.  So miss-chance wouldn't be a factor in that.  Just faster, smoother attacks, or attack bonus/damage.  Maybe some other effect (like a stunning on a large augment or something), but mainly that.  Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of accuracy for them, but right now it doesn't really fit.  I'd like to keep it, so I'd change it to +4/+5% to the miss chance.  That gives you a 50% drop in the miss chance (negating all miss chances) at 50.  The damage augment would be additional on top of that, because damage isn't as powerful as attack (unless damage is in large quantities, since you need to hit to do any damage at all).

Don- er, will do.

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You think that damage will be fine with all those other augments?

At 7 per? Yeah. Remember, you spend per type of augment used. It's exceed that has all of them go up at once.

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Note that Sudden Leap allows a swift action jump quite a big distance.  And that's a level 1 maneuver.  This is a high level bender, who has movement as one of their signature abilities, and jump even more so.

I'd like to have something that relies on even bigger tumble checks in there.  I'm not sure if we can fit anything it there, but one of the biggest problems with the current skill system is that skills cap out, then they aren't useful anymore.  Balance?  5 ranks.  Tumble? +25 bonus, to be safe.  Diplomacy?  +34 bonus unless you want to be able to make hostile friendly or better on that action.  It doesn't really matter, it's just a big problem with the skill system.  The only ones not capped out in usefulness are those that are opposed checks.

Well, originally, Fire's seed tried to use Jump checks, but that got ruled out. I'm wary of making the DC higher on tumble for fear of making the ability unusable. The issue is very fundamentally with the skill system and fixing that would be difficult.

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But the maintainance action is a full-round.  Which means that you aren't doing other things that might be more effective.  I would never take this seed right now because it is so restrictive and when I could actually use it Funnel would do about the same thing but actually allow me to do things other than harass the enemies.

Ideas to make it better: give the width increase augment an increase to the save DC (+4/increase should do it, it's basically a size bonus on trip, only for a save).  Maybe an exceed that does damage to things that it passes through, no save.  So that way it actually does do damage, no save, rather than existing as mobile difficult terrain (not really, just a catchy phrase).  I'm thinking an exceed of 1d6/2 points exceeded.  Maybe (a big maybe) a DC increase that's smaller than just the width increase, to allow a finer tuning of the bending DC.  +1/3.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that bit about the "damage to things that it passes through" since it currently stops when it successfully attacks something.

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Okay, I'm tired.  I'll do more tomorrow, since I'm off (Yay!), and it's awesome.  I'll be able to do the fire bending response, as well as start on feats.  Because we're way behind.  And I hate the universe for such.  I didn't even do anything to it this time!  Not that I know off!  Did I step on your toe by accident Universe?  If so I'm sorry!  I didn't know I did it!

This made me laugh after a very headachey day. +1 fu, you deserved it anyway.


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #243 on: September 23, 2008, 07:55:16 PM »
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At 7 per? Yeah. Remember, you spend per type of augment used. It's exceed that has all of them go up at once.

Alrighty then.  /7 it is.

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I'm not really sure what you mean by that bit about the "damage to things that it passes through" since it currently stops when it successfully attacks something.

It doesn't have any way to just move through the spaces of enemies at all?  I'm thinking of things like the Vortex (though for air) ability of air elementals.  If you can't then it's even less useful than Funnel.  Funnel does what this does, only without the damage and better (as opposed to a save which is easily made, it's a bull rush, which is far from easily made).  this should be able to move like the windvortex  of air elementals, and should be able to pick up and carry foes.  Or not, but should be able to continue moving after hitting them.  They could just travel up to the top and then fall out, taking falling damage and ending prone.

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5 Augment/+1 Wind Step?

How fast is a severe wind?  21 MPH?  I think that it should start out at 10 MPH winds, then +1 MPH/point.  find out what that would be in categories.  About.  Cause I think the categories aren't linear.  I'm not suggesting a new mechanic for wind speeds, I just don't know what the categories are and am stating approximate values of where I think it should lie close to.  Oh, and when in doubt, make it progress faster.
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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #244 on: October 02, 2008, 09:21:45 PM »
I have an idea to get some good playtesting done: Avatar arena!!!  Use the GitP arena rules, but with some modifications.  This document is fair game, of course, and either ban all other classes (must be at least one level of a bending class, just because we're trying to playtest) or have something like all opponents are NPC benders, or something.  In other news: I'm recovering from a cold, but I will finish everything I need to do this weekend with regards to classes.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #245 on: October 03, 2008, 12:34:44 AM »
I'm not familiar with the GitP arena rules?


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #246 on: October 03, 2008, 12:41:08 AM »
Well...check them out.  I figure we can just copy them since they work well for a clean slate start.

Only we'll use various levels: 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 should work.  Unless you think more or others would be more representative?  I don't want to do every level though....

EDIT: the waiting room: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83292

You can get to all relevant threads from there.
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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #247 on: October 05, 2008, 09:53:45 PM »
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Burning Edge:
[spoiler]Needs a damage augment.  The reach augment seems out of place.  Maybe a crit augment or something.  Base looks fine though.[/spoiler]

Zuko uses fire whips, and you can use them to channel fire blasts, so I think the damage should be good.

But....it's....a longsword....

So assuming you keep the reach, I still say it needs a damage augment.  I mean, if you're doing melee with it, it seems to me that that's the main reason you'd want it: damage.  I do know that it currently seems a bit....lacking.

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Claw of the Pheonix:
[spoiler]Why does this ignore miss-chances?  Also, why cap the dice size increase?  Change it to +1d6/BL on the exceed (so the exceed makes it 2d6/BL, then 3, then 4, then 5), though you'll need to get a 50 (not easy) on the exceed to get a whopping 3d6/BL under the current one.  This helps keep it viable into epic (something we need to worry about eventually), since damage becomes increasingly ineffective at really high levels.  Not sure though.  Just seems to me that exceeds shouldn't be capped.  Idea: have it ignore a portion of miss-chance: by reducing them.  Have an augment increase the reduction.  Still not sure why it's there though.  Speed doesn't help you negate them, speed makes you more accurate.[/spoiler]

I was thinking you basically asploded the entire targeted cube, so no place to really be dodging in.

Then why does it require an attack roll?  That would be an AoE seed.  Let's see: we already have an AoE like this, only a larger area.  I'm honestly at a loss on how to make it make sense.

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Cold Fire:
[spoiler]This looks fine.  Side note: I disagree on blue fire.  It's all flavor: she's a really high level, and her fire is just blue.[/spoiler]

Well, that's the other way to look at it, but you'd get some people yelling "but a prodigy shouldn't take extra experience to represent!" That is how I would stat her character though.

The high level was just because she was.  The blue fire is all flavor though.  Her fire is the same fire, only it's blue.  Because she's a prodigy.

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Combustion+Explosion:
[spoiler]These two I lumped together because of whatever that guy's name was.  The explody guy?  Yeah, him.  So yeah, it seems to me that Combustion should either be what he does, or should be an AoE like Fireball.  Personally I like the Explosion template.  You should be able to get explosive seeds other than just this (and I'm pretty sure it has some small references in the show), but these two seeds seem to want to be ale to do what he does, but they don't.  Here's how I see it: Combustion should be Fireball, basically.  That guy who I can't remember was using an Explosive one.  So: Combustion: creates the bead, flies out, deals damage to the object struck of 1d6/BL.  Deals damage in an area (start 10' radius) of 1d6/BL, the original target is also caught in this.  Augments inlcude an area augment, possibly a damage one (what else does fire have?), possibly something else.  Explosion: template to any open flame, initiate bull rush, half damage extra in bludgeoning (bull rush damage?), bull rush doesn't use str/BAB, uses BL/wis.  Bonus on bull rush as exceed?  Can you have augments on a template?  Bull rush is in the direction of the blast, or outward from AoE ones.[/spoiler]

Combustion Man. He does combustion. :D

Problem with making it fireball rather than disintegrate is that he's supposed to be the most destructively powerful firebender we see in the show, and fireball does underwhelming damage after a while (even to objects, even if it was changed to hit them for full damage rather than half) and making it deal more raw damage than Claw of the Phoenix seems to be an iffy idea. This also has the advantage of giving fire access to a not-elemental attack.

Wary of it adding raw damage since I see Explosion + Fire Blast + Greater Flurry being very popular for the multiple bull rush attempts a round to play keep away.

Two things: it won't be Fireball, it will be *better* and actually useful.  Also, Combustion Man was high level.  That's why he was so destructive.  Explosive should convert half of the damage to untyped damage, so it bypasses resistances.  And possibly double the damage, and be a good increase to the DC for a template.  It should also be a template.  That way, you can apply it to the sphere AoE, cone AoE, line AoE, etc.  Not just the two that it was (now not so).  The way it is now is better than the way it was.  So on to the current forms: Explosive: have the direction of the bull rush be outward from the center.  Also, I'd add an exceed augment that adds a +1 bonus on the attempt/2 exceeded.  And I'll wait on the whole damage discussion to clear up for the other thing I wanted to bring up (a damage augment).

Combustion: We need to settle the whole AoE thing, and I'll get to that later.  But this is no longer an AoE, it's Disintegrate.  The way it works now: insane.  Disintegrate at will.  you can auto-make the DC at level......13 easy.  It also has no augments.  Which is a bad thing.  Disintegrate at will is not necessarily a bad thing though.  It's not a particularly powerful spell, but the way it works now is just insane.  I'll just throw this out there right now: I hate the fact that it disintegrates a portion of non-living matter, rather than follow the way every other thing operates: damage.  So why not just let it deal double damage to objects?  Seems a bit better, you know?  They have rules in the DMG (and Dungeonscape they made them better) for destroying the ground and stuff, so that's taken care of.  Also, it needs augments.  Since this seems to be the most damaging thing a firebender can do: augment damage.  +1d6/level/6 exceed for one.  This will advance faster than similar ones, and for a good reason: it starts high.  In two levels you're likely to get 3d6/BL, then in about 4 more another boost, so you'll get 4d6/BL by 20.  Though I'd support a drop in DC of 5 for this.  That will get you (at the current progression) access at 11, a 3d6/BL damage at about 14, 4 at 18, and 5 at 20.  About so, anyways.  Without feats as well.  I'm not sure if 100d6 as a round action is too much, or just right.  My judgement is being clouded.

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Heat Control:
[spoiler]Needs more Heat Metal.  Incandescence needs a maintain action to increase the heat.  Deals +1d4 over the previous round.  Augment to increase the cap on this, which is normally +2 steps, or 2d4.  +1d4/+3.  Otherwise I don't see much use for this seed.  Same thing almost goes for vent, just that a clause needs to be added: goes back to normal after you stop concentrating.  If this is cooler (i.e., room temp after Incandescence), then the damage lowers as appropriate.  If it's warmer (i.e. vent on a fire elemental) things go back to normal.[/spoiler]

Ranged sunder in one round, no save for the object under the current scheme.  11d4 or 27 damage (achievable in mid-teens) will destroy any weapon or armor without at least +3 of true enhancement bonus.

And?  It's not like this makes Sunder a viable tactic anyways.  The problem with Sunder is not that it's hard to do, it's that it's stupid to do.  The way you have it now makes it actually not terrible.  In a setting where Sunder wasn't a stupid thing to do, this would be a viable means to incapacitating foes.

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Heatwave:
[spoiler]Debuffs are nice....but why?  I like it, but why?  Also, should apply to the target of the original attack, in addition to the other effects.  Maybe an augment to increase the duration?  Area?  Probably not area.  Just duration: +1 round/+10 DC.[/spoiler]

Heat sickness is the rationale. Havoc of the X-Men uses heat to do that + headaches often.

Okay then: idea: add Nauseate to the augment list.  +10 DC to have it nauseate on a failed and sicken on a successful.  Then add an augment for increased DC, because I feel every seed that uses a save DC needs one.  +1 DC/3 augment should be fine, since even on the lowest form I can think of (Fireblast) you'll have a DC of 10 before any saves, and if you want nausea then DC 20.  30 if you want to attack multiple opponents.  Also, have it force a save "at the end of your turn or when you pass through it".  Finally, have the duration of the heat last for one round, +1 round/5 exceed.  And have the nausea condition last for one round, non-augmentable.

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Inner Flames:
[spoiler]nice.  but the HP is a bit low.  Have the augment do something nifty.  Like, increasing resistance to con damage or something.  Ooh!  bonus on fort saves against fatigue related things.[/spoiler]

Cranked up the HP a bit and added that + against fatigue.

At level 20 you get a whopping 27 temp HP from this.  I'd make it +1/1, for a total of 37 or so temp HP.  Makes it a bit easier on the math, and more for this is a good thing.  Since they are refreshed every round, I'm not really willing to do more (like, +2/1), because that could get insane.  I might start it at 5 HP too.  40 temp HP isn't so bad.  And it makes the form somewhat useful at the beginning.

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Lifebending:
[spoiler]I like it, but it's a bit bland.  Hows about an augment to grant bonus con and/or str, and/or HP?  I'll have to think of more and ways to do these things tomorrow (i.e., later today).[/spoiler]

It's already pretty strong, since it improves basically every area of a character. I'm leery of adding more.

It's like Inspire Greatness, only worse.  IG is +2 levels.  And lasts more than a minute.  Also, why do the - levels not stack?  Everything else like this would.  IG is available at level 9, btw.  This at level 11.  I'm not entirely sure what fits though.  Discussion would be good.

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Pyrotechnics:
[spoiler]Try splitting them into two maneuvers.  For the blinding one, augments for DC increase and for blindness duration increase.  Also, it needs a duration on the dazzled.  As long as they look at the flame.  The fascinate effect needs a DC augment, and an increase penalty augment.  Maybe an augment to make it last longer than a breaking effect would have it last.[/spoiler]

They seem a little weak split into two, given that one's non-combat only. Dazzling has a duration of one round or as long as the flame is there, to vary based on the base flame. (As long as the flame is there is not very useful for say, fire blast.)

They should be split because they are so different, not because of power.  but I see your point.

As for the duration: that's for the blindness.  The Fascinate ones, discuss.  Because I feel it needs it.

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Redirect:
[spoiler]Needs more.  First off, augments.  Allow more redirects/turn.  1/5-10 should do it.  Somewhere in there.  Maybe more.  Second, it seems limited in anything not canon.  Discuss fixes to this?  Maybe an ability to retaliate a la Circular Attack?[/spoiler]

Done to the first. To the second, with Cold Fire, you're moving any electricity or flame, which is a lot of what the monsters can do. And it means a party carrying a blaster is free to have him say, drop a Flame Strike with almost reckless abandon on your party without metamagic. That can be nice.

It's still pretty limiting non-canon.  Energy attacks comprise a very small portion of attacks, and fire even less so, and electricity even less so.  I'm not really sure what won't break canon and flavor yet will allow it to be useful enough in non-canon settings.

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Soaring Flames:
[spoiler]Hurdle: needs a boost on the amount traveled: +10/+5'.  I'd say get rid of the jump check as well.  I'd also start it out as a 5' step, since you can't make 5' steps in difficult terrain.  Lower the initial DC to 15.
Rising Dawn: add an augment for a boost to the jump check.  Just think of how far Azula managed to go by the end of the series.  +1/1
Rising Phoenix: Add a maneuverability augment: +1 step/+10 exceed.  Maybe +15.[/spoiler]

We're talking... 80 foot horizontal jumps with a 20 foot vertical component. Does it need an additional augment?

Once again: think of how far Azula managed to go by the end of the series.  And it probably needs an augment anyways.  With full ranks in Jump and a str of +3 and a +1/1 augment you have a jump check of 96ish.  That's 100 feet (rounded up).  Azula managed to jump that far easy on Burning Rock part II.  You know, to grab the cable?  It's only 1/3 of a football field.

Also, I'd increase the action for maintaining the flight one to swift and the initial to standard.  Keeps Rising Dawn actually useful if you just need to jump a chasm but don't need flight.

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Sweeping Flames:
[spoiler]Nice, but seems to me the areas are all...very similar, yet this is a template?  Discussion needed.[/spoiler]

It turns the current combustion as well as Claw of the Phoenix into a close range area of death, and you can do iterative area attacks with Fire Blast this way.

Discussion on AoE needed.  I'll let you have the opening statements, since dinner approaches.  Basically: how many AoE seeds do we need?  How hard is it to adapt "cone" to "burst", when the only real difference is the origination point?

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Wall of Fire:
[spoiler]Look to the spell for inspiration.  First off, needs damage.  2d6+1/BL does it.  Second off, have it deal 1d6 damage within 5' of it.  Augments for increased damage possible, of +1d6/+3 DC, but that likely won't be as useful as the lengthening augments, so it's all fine.  These are to the wall itself, not the aura of pain.  Also one for duration after concentrating.  +1 round/+10 does it.  Won't be used.....at all at this though, so probably less.  I'm tired.[/spoiler]

If used with Magnify Flames, its damage jumps up a lot, hence why it doesn't do any inherent damage, basically.

First off, since this does no damage it does nothing.  Secondly, it's fire.  How does it not do damage initially?  It should deal a small amount of damage, augmentable but not by much, and then Magnify Flames can make it do more if you want.  Thirdly, fire is not hot only at where it's flaming.  That's why a smaller (much smaller) radius damage around it is there in a suggestion.  As of right now it's not a very useful seed.
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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #248 on: October 06, 2008, 12:03:07 AM »
Okay, after talking with a friend I think I have a better alternative to Combustion: make it 1d10/BL, 45' range (he didn't use it from further away in the show anyways, and it's better balanced: doesn't make all firebenders want to be ranged), +1d10/2 exceed.
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Bauglir

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #249 on: October 06, 2008, 01:17:12 AM »
Ok, so I hear that shapes for fire are a problem from a perspective of sameness. So, here are a few idea's I'll toss out.

3 different bases types. A burst, a spread, and a ray. IIRC, the difference between bursts and spreads is essentially that bursts behave like light with regard to corners, spreads behave like water. So bursts are nigh-instantaneous, spreads last for measurable time, and rays are, well, rays.

So, for some reason that makes sense to me, let's have the burst start out as a sphere centered on you. Give it an augment that lets you change it into a line, and another that turns it into a cone (both centered on you, and the augments are obviously mutually exclusive). Since it's instantaneous, let's make it have some effect related to the flash of light and/or compression wave. Let's give it a reflex save for half damage, like most area damage, but then toss on an additional effect to make it more unique and give Evasion the finger because now it's Reflex partial. Dazzling is good, but it's weak, so let's make it Shaken if you fail your save, which is similar, but more annoying to those who suffer it. Have it last 1 round per Bending level. For an augment to that, let's increase the Reflex save. +1/2 by which the DC is beaten sound good?

So now we have the spread. Starts out as a sphere you can center within a given range. Have an augment to change that to a cylinder, and also one that makes it a wall. Have the wall basically be a line, but perpendicular to the shortest line you can draw from you to the center of that wall. Reflex save for half damage like before, but we need an extra effect. Spreads last longer, so things caught within it have the chance to catch fire. But normal burning rules are annoying. Make it 2d6 damage per round, lasting for 1 round per 2 Bending levels. Have an augment that increases that damage by 1d6/ 3 or 4 you beat the DC by. Probably harder to do than the last one.

And the beam. Let's have the ray, which we might compare to a laser. To augment it, let's make it really frakking big. Like, 10-feet wide. That sounds good, make it a 10-ft wide line, much shorter than the line for the normal burst, though. This will also be a burst. Change the touch attack to a Reflex save for half damage, but we're gonna need an additional effect here cause that just plain makes it weaker. Lasers are really bright, right? If you fail your Reflex save, you're blinded for 1 round. Augment boosts the Reflex save. Let's say that if you crit with the ray, the target is blinded, no save. This would be the most difficult of the seeds to do, in all likelihood.

Obviously, each would include a separate augment to increase damage. Does this work?

EDIT: because dazing is too good, really. also clarity in the first one.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 01:26:39 AM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #250 on: October 06, 2008, 10:03:13 PM »
Woah, lots of feedback here, sorry, I didn't even notice. I've been spending most of my time at GitP lately. I'll get up some responses tomorrow.


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #251 on: October 09, 2008, 06:47:52 PM »
Wow, I am very impressed with the PDF I found in the first post. Is it up-to-date with the changes suggested throughout this thread? Also, how does Bloodbending work? In the PDF it says you can control, freeze, boil, and drain living creatures. What do those functions actually consist of? There needs to be clarification on those uses. Would control be like a Dominate Person/Monster spell? Would freeze do cold damage and hold the creature? Would boil do fire damage or something else? Would drain kill the creature? Technically, if a living creature is drained of water the cells would shrivel and die.

Also, the Puppet seeds seem pointless to me. That should be reserved for Bloodbending and work on any creature that has water in their body. How many creatures are you going to run into with an elemental sub-type (at least in the Avatar world)? There aren't many creatures in the world like that. Certainly not enough to make taking that seed worthwhile.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 07:51:29 PM by Bajaaku »

dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #252 on: October 09, 2008, 09:29:05 PM »
First off, welcome.

Second: the Puppet seeds are there because, well, it's very logical that Earthbenders would be able to manipulate an Earth Elemental, if they ever encountered one.  Same with the other benders.  The point of this project is not to perfectly duplicate the show, that would be boring, you already (presumably) know how it ends and what you do at every step.  The point is to allow play in the Avatar setting, while also allowing this to be used in other settings, by basing it in the "normal" D&D universe first, and allowing perfect (near so) adaptation to the Avatar world.  So using this you can play as a group of benders in that setting.  Or play a waterbender on a quest to take out an evil wizard.

Bloodbending: it's allowing you to manipulate any creature comprised of water by manipulating the bodily fluids.  Really any flesh.  So you could use it to make Water Blasts with a chunk of raw meat, or something.  And then this+Puppet=Bloodbending as the crazy water lady did in that one episode (2 episodes?).  Because really, it's a very small logical leap for waterbenders to manipulate flesh when it has water in it.  But to directly address you question: it's a template.  Meaning you apply it to a different seed, and the other seed is what the effect is.  Bloodbending just allows you to use that seed on flesh.  Be it living or dead.
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #253 on: October 09, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »
Okay! I'm back. Again. On 100 minutes of sleep. Let's do this shit.

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But....it's....a longsword....

So assuming you keep the reach, I still say it needs a damage augment.  I mean, if you're doing melee with it, it seems to me that that's the main reason you'd want it: damage.  I do know that it currently seems a bit....lacking.

You're getting lots of reach combined with the extra damage just from the channeled fire blasts, though. What did you have in mind for a damage augment?

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Then why does it require an attack roll?  That would be an AoE seed.  Let's see: we already have an AoE like this, only a larger area.  I'm honestly at a loss on how to make it make sense.

That is very true. How about if it negates miss chances due to ethereal effects and the like, but not due to concealment? Then it's just- no, that implies it's magical. Hrmmm. Maybe just have to ditch the miss chance removal.

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Two things: it won't be Fireball, it will be *better* and actually useful.  Also, Combustion Man was high level.  That's why he was so destructive.  Explosive should convert half of the damage to untyped damage, so it bypasses resistances.  And possibly double the damage, and be a good increase to the DC for a template.  It should also be a template.  That way, you can apply it to the sphere AoE, cone AoE, line AoE, etc.  Not just the two that it was (now not so).  The way it is now is better than the way it was.  So on to the current forms: Explosive: have the direction of the bull rush be outward from the center.  Also, I'd add an exceed augment that adds a +1 bonus on the attempt/2 exceeded.  And I'll wait on the whole damage discussion to clear up for the other thing I wanted to bring up (a damage augment).

Combustion: We need to settle the whole AoE thing, and I'll get to that later.  But this is no longer an AoE, it's Disintegrate.  The way it works now: insane.  Disintegrate at will.  you can auto-make the DC at level......13 easy.  It also has no augments.  Which is a bad thing.  Disintegrate at will is not necessarily a bad thing though.  It's not a particularly powerful spell, but the way it works now is just insane.  I'll just throw this out there right now: I hate the fact that it disintegrates a portion of non-living matter, rather than follow the way every other thing operates: damage.  So why not just let it deal double damage to objects?  Seems a bit better, you know?  They have rules in the DMG (and Dungeonscape they made them better) for destroying the ground and stuff, so that's taken care of.  Also, it needs augments.  Since this seems to be the most damaging thing a firebender can do: augment damage.  +1d6/level/6 exceed for one.  This will advance faster than similar ones, and for a good reason: it starts high.  In two levels you're likely to get 3d6/BL, then in about 4 more another boost, so you'll get 4d6/BL by 20.  Though I'd support a drop in DC of 5 for this.  That will get you (at the current progression) access at 11, a 3d6/BL damage at about 14, 4 at 18, and 5 at 20.  About so, anyways.  Without feats as well.  I'm not sure if 100d6 as a round action is too much, or just right.  My judgement is being clouded.

I think once we're talking about 100d6, we need to begin doing damage in sheer integers, like some of the higher level ToB things, just for speed of play. Rolling 100 die will take a while IRL. The rest of the stuff I am going to bow to your judgment.

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And?  It's not like this makes Sunder a viable tactic anyways.  The problem with Sunder is not that it's hard to do, it's that it's stupid to do.  The way you have it now makes it actually not terrible.  In a setting where Sunder wasn't a stupid thing to do, this would be a viable means to incapacitating foes.

Okay, your language is confusing me here. (Sorry, I am tired. =\) Do you still want to switch it back to be more like Heat Metal, or do you think it's good as is?

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Heat sickness is the rationale. Havoc of the X-Men uses heat to do that + headaches often.

Okay then: idea: add Nauseate to the augment list.  +10 DC to have it nauseate on a failed and sicken on a successful.  Then add an augment for increased DC, because I feel every seed that uses a save DC needs one.  +1 DC/3 augment should be fine, since even on the lowest form I can think of (Fireblast) you'll have a DC of 10 before any saves, and if you want nausea then DC 20.  30 if you want to attack multiple opponents.  Also, have it force a save "at the end of your turn or when you pass through it".  Finally, have the duration of the heat last for one round, +1 round/5 exceed.  And have the nausea condition last for one round, non-augmentable.[/quote]

Sounds good.

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At level 20 you get a whopping 27 temp HP from this.  I'd make it +1/1, for a total of 37 or so temp HP.  Makes it a bit easier on the math, and more for this is a good thing.  Since they are refreshed every round, I'm not really willing to do more (like, +2/1), because that could get insane.  I might start it at 5 HP too.  40 temp HP isn't so bad.  And it makes the form somewhat useful at the beginning.

Hmmm... I'm not nearly as familiar with Temp HP usage as you are, so again, I'll bow to you.

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It's like Inspire Greatness, only worse.  IG is +2 levels.  And lasts more than a minute.  Also, why do the - levels not stack?  Everything else like this would.  IG is available at level 9, btw.  This at level 11.  I'm not entirely sure what fits though.  Discussion would be good.

With augments, this does beat IG, though. And the temp levels added by this add more than IG does.

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As for the duration: that's for the blindness.  The Fascinate ones, discuss.  Because I feel it needs it.

Perhaps make the Fascination a feat? I'd say a skill trick but I have no idea what skill could possibly work. Alternatively, we could maybe expand the fascination into a full illusion thing... Heat Mirage. Which would give us another seed, and more variety.

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Once again: think of how far Azula managed to go by the end of the series.  And it probably needs an augment anyways.  With full ranks in Jump and a str of +3 and a +1/1 augment you have a jump check of 96ish.  That's 100 feet (rounded up).  Azula managed to jump that far easy on Burning Rock part II.  You know, to grab the cable?  It's only 1/3 of a football field.

Also, I'd increase the action for maintaining the flight one to swift and the initial to standard.  Keeps Rising Dawn actually useful if you just need to jump a chasm but don't need flight.

Sounds good. By the way, still not sure on Redirect.

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Discussion on AoE needed.  I'll let you have the opening statements, since dinner approaches.  Basically: how many AoE seeds do we need?  How hard is it to adapt "cone" to "burst", when the only real difference is the origination point?

I think... this can probably be ditched with some reworking of other stuff for variety. There's not as much to stack here as with the older versions of firebending, so it has a very limited practical application, and it's basically not that great. 

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First off, since this does no damage it does nothing.  Secondly, it's fire.  How does it not do damage initially?  It should deal a small amount of damage, augmentable but not by much, and then Magnify Flames can make it do more if you want.  Thirdly, fire is not hot only at where it's flaming.  That's why a smaller (much smaller) radius damage around it is there in a suggestion.  As of right now it's not a very useful seed.

I meant that it only does the basic fire damage, which can then be magnified pretty high. I never cared for heat auras since they're a bit more complicated, but it would increase its denial range, while giving the firebender more flexibility...


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #254 on: October 09, 2008, 11:26:59 PM »
First off, welcome.
Thanks. :)

Second: the Puppet seeds are there because, well, it's very logical that Earthbenders would be able to manipulate an Earth Elemental, if they ever encountered one.  Same with the other benders.  The point of this project is not to perfectly duplicate the show, that would be boring, you already (presumably) know how it ends and what you do at every step.  The point is to allow play in the Avatar setting, while also allowing this to be used in other settings, by basing it in the "normal" D&D universe first, and allowing perfect (near so) adaptation to the Avatar world.  So using this you can play as a group of benders in that setting.  Or play a waterbender on a quest to take out an evil wizard.

Bloodbending: it's allowing you to manipulate any creature comprised of water by manipulating the bodily fluids.  Really any flesh.  So you could use it to make Water Blasts with a chunk of raw meat, or something.  And then this+Puppet=Bloodbending as the crazy water lady did in that one episode (2 episodes?).  Because really, it's a very small logical leap for waterbenders to manipulate flesh when it has water in it.  But to directly address you question: it's a template.  Meaning you apply it to a different seed, and the other seed is what the effect is.  Bloodbending just allows you to use that seed on flesh.  Be it living or dead.
Ah ok. So if I wanted to boil someone's blood, for example, I would use Phase Change + Bloodbending. Is that right? Would that do more damage than normal (as mentioned in the Phase Change description) or would it be the same? I assume it would be the same since I didn't read any different. I just thought that having your blood boil (which would kill you in real life) might be worse than simply being scalded in hot water. Do you think it should do extra damage when it's the creature's blood that's freezing/boiling or should it be the same? Just a thought.

BTW, who did the PDF work? Was that you AF? And do you have a need for an editor or anyone to help you on it? I'm not sure how good I am at creating custom content, but I'd be glad to help edit/update/proofread the PDF as it gets changed. Feel free to email me at bajaaku@gmail.com or AIM at King of Kalvorin if you want to coordinate anything.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 02:34:27 AM by Bajaaku »

dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #255 on: October 10, 2008, 09:11:58 PM »
Actually it would be as doing Phase Change on a Water elemental.  At least, that's the intent.  I'm not sure what the written is right now since I haven't looked at the specific wording.

Also, AF did the PDF.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #256 on: October 10, 2008, 10:24:18 PM »
The PDF is currently out of date and I can't change it, though. Computer deaded. I should be able to piece together my replacement by next week, though. My sister's promised me some money for it as an early Christmas gift, the issue will be convincing her to save her money so I don't get an expensive and inferior Mac compared to a cheaper PC. She likes splurging on me and sees the Apple brandname + higher price tag and is assuming I'm just trying to be selfless and that I secretly really want the Mac. (...This is true to an extent, but only if I had the spare $1.5k to get one that'd be comparable in power. This is not a dig at Macs in general, I should clarify, I just have yet to see a desktop mac that's comparably priced to a home-built PC.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 10:26:55 PM by AstralFire »


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #257 on: October 10, 2008, 10:27:49 PM »
I think I understand now, dman.

AF, I think I can edit the PDF using a tool in Adobe Acrobat, if you want to give me a list of what needs to be changed.

Also, being new to these forums I'm a bit overwhelmed by the 13 pages of text/suggestions. How much of it has been accepted and included in the current PDF, how much has been accepted but not included in the PDF, and how much is still under discussion? Is someone keeping that organized? If not, there needs to be some sort of change log to keep that information available. I'd be glad to keep something like that, but I'd need someone to help me start it since I'm not aware of the current status. Again, just trying to help out.

dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #258 on: October 10, 2008, 11:38:46 PM »
Right now we're working on Fire and Air pretty much exclusively.  They are very troublesome.  Also in need of attention to get to the Water and Earth status': feats, equipment, and the overbend mechanic (I'm not very satisfied with it AF...but I don't know what's wrong, much less how to fix it...it's just this feeling I get).  These last things are not troublesome like Air and Fire, but just haven't been looked into much.
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #259 on: October 10, 2008, 11:47:30 PM »
I know you said you don't know what wrong with Overbending, but you have to have some idea. Does it seem too harsh to you or not harsh enough? I haven't done any playtesting, but I like the idea of overbending.