Avatar d20 fixes

[dman11235]

I'm a cook.  It's awesome.

EDIT: Also, about it being redundant with swift actions, the point was not to be able to do two forms at the same time, but to make new ways of utilizing the forms.  Like, instead of just a tentacle, it's a wave as well, hitting them and pushing them back, reforming in the new location.  You're using tentacle and wave at the same time, with the same water.

[dman11235]

Forms with the Somatic component require precise, coordinated motion. Bending checks made to activate a form with a somatic component incur double the usual armor check penalty as a result, even if you have proficiency in the armor. If you do not at least have two limbs free, grappling, are prone, or otherwise hindered in a significant way, you must take a -10 penalty on your bending check in order to activate a form with a somatic component. Attempting to activate a form with the Somatic component while you are completely helpless, pinned, or otherwise immobile is impossible even for the most skilled benders.

Not sure I like this, for one reason: proficiency should lower/eliminate the ACP.  If you're proficient, it shouldn't get in the way.  Or, maybe it can let you ignore the ACP if you're proficient with light and wearing it, but med or heavy and it's halved.

Activating or maintaining forms with the Meditation component provokes an attack of opportunity unless done as a swift or free action unless otherwise stated. Forms with a Maintenance Action require you to spend at least that much effort a round focusing on the form to keep it from ending. Maintenance Actions can be quickened unless the form's description states they cannot, as you must make another bending check each time a form calls for a Maintenance Action. Augments can be added or removed while you are still maintaining a form; however, you must add +4 to the difficulty class that round in order to sustain your mental and physical balance while adjusting to a change. Templates, however, cannot be removed or added in this manner.

Added a little something.

Most forms with an Activation Time of Full-Round or shorter can be quickened. For every ten points you increase the difficulty class of a form, you can reduce the activation time and maintenance time of any such form to the next smaller action, to a minimum of Swift. A full-round action becomes a standard action becomes a move action becomes a swift action. However, some forms have their own rules on quickening, either allowing you to quicken them at less of a cost, or sometimes not at all.

We'll worry about this bit later.  I do agree with the fact that numbers need to change, just not sure what they should change to.  It'll be later in a general class discussion.  Personally, I feel that changing it one step would cost less than changing it two steps.  That might be abusable though.

Getting struck in the midst of activating or while maintaining a bending form with a Meditation component and then subsequently failing your Concentration check causes you to lose the form, just like a spell.

900 Gallons = One 5-ft cube of water

Unless a seed otherwise states so, water must be within 10 feet of you to use as part of an attack. Move Water, when used to fuel other attacks, only needs to bring the water within 10 feet.

Good.

Water Blast
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 5
Components: Somatic
Activation Time: Ranged attack
Range: 60 ft.
Target: Creature
Flavor Text
The first offensive ability you learn as a waterbender. Whenever you would be granted a ranged attack, you may use a Water Blast instead, including as part of a full attack action, or feats like Shot on the Run. Each Water Blast deals 1d6 piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage at your option, depending on the exact shape and composition of the water used. This attack increases in damage as you take more levels in the Waterbender class; some prestige classes may also increase this damage.

Water Required: 1 Pint, not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• around a barrier to reach its target, though this does not grant you the ability to see around walls or other obstructions. Such attacks are still made as though blind.

[/spoiler]

This is fine, but the damage should increase, as it does.  The wording here would mean that it does not follow the table (text trumps table and all).  I struck out unnecessary words.

Move Water (formerly part of Manipulate Water)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 5
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Move Action
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: A 5-ft cube of water, ice, or a 10-ft cube of water vapor.
Effect: Move 5 ft.
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (Object)
Flavor Text
A 10-ft cube of water vapor can be broken up into or recombined from eight 5-ft cubes at will. You shunt each controlled cube of water up to five feet in any direction. At the end of your action, you can release the water, letting it fall or disperse, or you can hold it in place. Holding the water in place requires maintenance action.

A 5-ft cube of water or 10-ft cube of vapor holds approximately 900 gallons.

Appropriately sized water creatures such as elementals can be moved with use of this seed:


Taking water out of elementals or primarily water objects deals 1d6 damage per 5-ft cube of water you extract.

Augment:

• For every five points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), you can move one additional cube.
• For every five points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), the distance you can move the water increases by five feet.

I gave it specific combination rules since otherwise, forms which require water and are a swift action could never actually be performed as a swift action.

Note: This is a 'Starter Seed'. I'll come up with a better name for them in a bit, but every waterbender starts with them. Therefore, there won't be multiple forms on any of these so things are simpler.[/spoiler]

I'd say +1 cube/DC increase.  I say DC increase because you have to decide before you try and manipulate it how much you want to move.  And the distance moved: have it be +5'/3 DC exceeded, start with 10'.

Why is this different than Manipulate?

Shape Water (formerly part of Manipulate Water)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 5
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: One minute per 5-ft cube to be affected.
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: A 5-ft cube of water or ice
Effect: Manipulate the water's shape as you wish.
Duration: Concentration (Water), Instantaneous (Ice)
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (Object, Harmless)
Flavor Text
You manipulate the basic shape of water or ice to look like something else (such as a sculpture), though specific detail is very hard. Craft (Sculpture) determines the exact quality of the object created if it's a statue.

When you stop concentrating on liquid water, it returns to its natural shape.

Sculpted ice has 15 Hardness and 5 Hit Points per inch of thickness.

Craft (Weaponsmithing) and Craft (Fletching) can be used with Shape Water to make weaponry and ammunition out of ice. This weaponry deals damage as a normal weapon of its kind, +1d4 cold damage, but is extremely brittle. Weaponry made out of ice has 20 Hardness and 1 HP, and breaks upon delivering a natural 20 critical hit. Ammunition and thrown weapons made of ice always break upon usage. Unless the ambient temperature is below freezing, the weaponry becomes useless in ten minutes, faster in hot conditions.

One 5-ft cube creates material for eight medium-sized weapons, or up to four hundred pieces of ammunition.

Appropriately sized water creatures such as elementals can be altered with use of this seed, though it does not hinder them in any way:


Augment:

• For every five points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), you can shape one additional cube.

Note: This is a 'Starter Seed'. I'll come up with a better name for them in a bit, but every waterbender starts with them. Therefore, there won't be multiple forms on any of these so things are simpler.

Also, it ate the weapon usage of Ice Shards[/spoiler]

Why does it take so long?Everything else seems fine, but it shouldn't take so long to do, and then more complex ones should take longer.  I just don't see how it takes a minute to make the equivalent of a 5' tall stick figure.  Also, the augment should be an increase to the DC.  See the bottom for this, since I've seen it in every seed so far.  So: *.  The fact that it ate the Ice Shards weapon use: good.  NOt really much of a reason it's there, anyway.  Though this is more reason to lower the time.  Full round action, increases for more complex things.  Not sure how to do this though.

Phase Change (formerly Melt/Freeze)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: See Text
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Full-Round Action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: A 5-ft cube of water, ice, or a 10-ft cube of water vapor.
Effect: Change the water's temperature, or even its phase.
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Reflex or Fortitude Negates (Object)
Flavor Text
With precise focus and gestures, you suddenly cause a spike or fall in water temperature and pressure, with the appropriate results. While altering the condition of the water one step at a time is easy, a flash temperature change can be extremely difficult.





Normal air, except on very humid days, does not contain sufficient water to be affected. A 5-ft cube of liquid or solid water changes into a 10-ft cube of gaseous water, and vice-versa.

If you attempt to freeze a creature, surround a creature in boiling water or thick steam, or melt the ice out from underneath someone, they are allowed a Reflex Save to move to an adjacent clear space (including adjacent spaces directly above and below them). If they do not have sufficient movement to make it to an adjacent clear space (such as if their move speed is 0 ft, or the terrain in the space is difficult to pass through) but make their save, they end up prone in the adjacent space.

Boiling water or thick steam that completely surrounds a creature deals 1d6 fire damage on the first round, increasing by 1d6 a round to a maximum of 10d6. Fortitude negates.

Frozen creatures are considered helpless, take 1d4 non-lethal cold damage a round and can break out to an adjacent square with a DC 25 Strength or Escape Artist check as a full-round action in normal ice, or a DC 35 Strength or Escape Artist check in glacial ice.

Quickly created ice is exceptionally frail. Ice has hardness 5 and 1 HP per cube. Glacial Ice has hardness 10 and 5 HP. It is impossible to attack someone frozen in ice without destroying the ice around them.

Thin mist obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 120 feet. A creature from 60 to 120 feet away has concealment; any farther and they have total concealment. Fog and thick steam obscure all sight, including darkvision, beyond 30 feet. A creature from 15 to 30 feet away has concealment; any farther and they have total concealment.

Water phases that are inappropriate to the environment (such as hot steam or ice in a temperate area) return to normal. Every ten minutes, the water progresses one step back towards normal. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses vapor, mist and fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind disperses them in 1 round.

Appropriately sized water creatures and objects such as elementals can be altered with use of this seed:


Creatures are allowed a Fortitude Save against this effect. Affected creatures and rigid objects (such as a water tank) take 1d8 damage per step altered in this way. An elemental that is only partially targeted (if the bender cannot control enough 5-ft cubes of water to cover the whole elemental) quickly regains its normal form, however.

An elemental turned into a gaseous form, liquid form, or solid form when that is not its normal state is left helpless for 3 rounds as it attempts to reconstitute itself. One made gaseous is immune to any physical damage during this time period.

Augment:

• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you may perform Phase Change on or in a cube of water, ice or vapor which you are standing inside without the use of Somatic components; this is accomplished via exhaling and breath control.
• By increasing the difficulty class by twenty, you can instead target 20-ft cubes of normal, dry air, treating them as 10-ft cubes of water vapor. Exceptionally arid air, such as that in a desert, is unaffected.
• For every ten points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), you can affect one additional cube.

Note: This is a 'Starter Seed'. I'll come up with a better name for them in a bit, but every waterbender starts with them. Therefore, there won't be multiple forms on any of these so things are simpler.[/spoiler]

Well, it's long.  That could be a bad thing.  Otherwise it's fine.

Steady Stance
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 10
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Standard Action
Range: 20 ft.
Target: A creature standing on the ground.
Effect: Encase creatures' feet in solid ice.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Flavor Text
You coat the creature's feet in solid ice, simultaneously stabilizing and trapping them. The target creature gains a +2 bonus to their reactive Trip, Bull Rush and Grapple checks, but must make a Strength or Escape Artist check (DC 15) to break free as a standard action. (Alternatively, they may spend a full-round action chipping the ice away with a light or one-handed weapon.) Waterbenders affected by this seed may simply dismiss the ice as a move action.

Water Required: 2 Gallons per Small or Medium leg. This water is immediately recoverable if it is in your space.

Augment:

• For every five points that you increase the difficulty class, the creature gains an additional +2 bonus on those checks, and the Strength and Escape Artist DC increases by +2.

[/spoiler]

See below* for the increase DC vs exceed DC.

This augment should be +2/5, and +1/5 for the DC for str/escape artist.

Water Whip
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 10
Components: Somatic
Activation Time: Move Action
Maintenance Action: Free Action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Whip-like tendril of water.
Duration: Concentration.
Flavor Text
You create a thick tendril of water that wraps itself around your arm and into your hand. You can use this cohesive water as a weapon, and are considered to be proficient with it. The Water Whip has all the features of a normal whip for your size category except that it deals lethal damage on a successful hit regardless of a target's armor class, only has a 10-ft reach, is a light weapon, and threatens its area. The Water Whip has 0 hardness, 10 HP, and takes non-lethal damage from physical attacks. It regenerates 10 points of non-lethal damage every round. The Water Whip lasts as long as you concentrate (a free action), or until it is destroyed or you let go of it.

Water Required: One gallon, or eight pints. This water is immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every five points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), you gain an additional +2 bonus to trip or disarm attempts made with the whip.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, the whip deals damage as though it were a size larger.
• For every ten points that you increase the difficulty class, the whip gains an additional 5' reach.

- At +4 per size, 12d6 damage per strike with the whip is within easy reach at 20.
- 15' reach around L5-6, 20' reach around 10-11, 25' reach around 17-18, 30' reach only possible in non-canon.[/spoiler]

First thing....objects are immune to non-lethal damage...how about just saying it's immune to physical damage, because it instantly regenerates any part that is lost?

Also, +1 size/4 DC is (assuming 44 is reached) 8d6, not 12d6.  You need 2 more to get that 12d6 (and reach is better).  20+10 for levels, +4 assumed for wis (canon can get up to...+6, so that gets that).  Non-canon that wis can get up to +12 or so, so that's up to 22d6 if you focused on that.  I honestly don't see a world where giving up that reach will be worth that damage.  You give up 20' of reach for +40.5 damage.  That's it.  For perspective, that's nearly a 70% drop in threatened area.  So, what do we do?  We can either reduce the usefulness of this seed by taking away its good reach, or up the amount gained by increasing damage.  Halving the DC increase will yield a max of 102d6 by 20 canon.  That's....too much (average of 357...).  Every 3 will yield a max of 22d6 canon.  That's better, but still probably not worth it compared to reach.

So.  Who's in favor of nixing the damage increase for this altogether and lowering the DC increase for reach to +5 since it's the only augment?  Note that this yields a reach of 45'.  I don't think that's too much, it just solidifies this as the primary BC option.  Tentacle can still be useful for closer BC, and has other ways to shine: damage.  +6 DC/5' would yield a max of 40', and +7/5' is a max of 35'.  I think the +5/5' might just work well.

Tentacle
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: See Text
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Full-Round Action
Maintenance Action: Full-Round Action
Range: 60 ft. (Tentacle), 0 ft. (Octopus)
Area: One or more 5-ft squares
Effect: Create one or more 5-ft long tentacles
Duration: Three rounds + concentration.
Flavor Text
This stance initiates two different forms.
Tentacle (DC 10): You create a five-foot-long tentacle of water in the targeted square. This tentacle is a Medium-sized object with 0 Hardness and 25 hit points, and an Armor Class of 10. It takes non-lethal damage from slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing attacks, and regenerates 25 points of non-lethal damage a round.

The tentacle has a single Slam attack that deals 1d8 damage, with a Strength score equal to your Wisdom score, and uses your base attack bonus as its own. It has no other ability scores. It has no move speed, and uses your saves when necessary. It also can make trip and disarm attacks, gaining the benefit of any related feats you possess.

Maintaining the form and directing tentacles to attack is a full-round action. For every round past the third that you maintain this form, you take a -1 penalty to all bending checks per round as the water becomes more and more difficult to maneuver.

Water Required: 1 Gallon or 8 Pints per tentacle. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can make and control another tentacle.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can make one tentacle Large size, granting it 10 ft. reach, 2d6 damage, and the appropriate size modifiers on attack (-1), armor class (-1) trip (+4), and disarm (+4). This requires an additional 3 Gallons of water per tentacle.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can increase the health and non-lethal regeneration of a single tentacle. Both scores raise by two points.

Octopus (DC 15): You create three tentacles around yourself, occupying your own square. These three tentacles have the same statistics as a normal tentacle, but in addition, for each Octopus Tentacle attack you opt to forego on your turn, you may attempt to use it to negate one attack made against you for the round; this ability works exactly like the Deflect Attack class ability, except that it does not require a use of your Immediate Action and may be applied against both melee and ranged attacks (including touch attacks).

Maintaining the form and directing tentacles to attack is a full-round action. For every round past the third that you maintain this form, you take a -1 penalty to all bending checks as the water becomes more and more difficult to maneuver.

Water Required: 1 Gallon or 8 Pints per tentacle. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can make and control another tentacle when you activate this form.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can make one tentacle Large size when you activate this form, granting it 10 ft. reach, 2d6 damage, and the appropriate size modifiers on attack (-1), armor class (-1) trip (+4), and disarm (+4). This requires an additional 3 Gallons of water per tentacle.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can increase the health and non-lethal regeneration of a single tentacle when you activate this form. Both scores raise by two points.
• By increasing the difficulty class by ten when you activate this form, you can grant Octopus Form the ability to grapple and the Improved Grab feat to all of your tentacles.

I'm not sure on anything involving attack of opportunity spam; I freely admit that for a COer, my sense of balance is a bit weak.[/spoiler]

Lotsa things here.  Maintenance, I'd change to a standard action.  This way, you can still move (they did in the show...) but can't really do much of anything else.  There are some seeds that are move actions, but they aren't big ones.  Or are a lot weaker due to being quickened.  Congratulations!  Your quickening system is awesome!  I also striked things that should be removed, and bolded additions.  For hardness/HP/AC/damage, see Water Whip.  It's immune to physical damage because it can instantly regenerate as long as there is water.  Also, I think it requires more water.  4 gallons for a large tentacle (also, reword that, as it is you can increase it to large twice with +8 DC, not huge....)...a 10' square creature being the size of a normal box, or a small object....yeah....Also note that it is exponential.  On size increases: have the str score increase as normal.

Octopus: why do they share your square?  Why can't you designate squares around you?  It should be that.  And you shouldn't be able to increase the size, .... this is going to be a difficult seed to manage.  I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to create larger tentacles, but that's a real problem in placement.  Also, note that having the tentacles being in adjacent squares only restricts you to 8 at the most attacks negated.  So they must be in your square, indefinite amount can be created.  Also, it should be +1/3 DC, not /4.  If the point of this is to make you nearly immune to attacks, it had better do it.  +3 gives you 12 attacks to be negated in canon.  That still doesn't help if you've got 4 firebenders using rapid shot/flurry with fire blasts.  And grappling...I don't see it.  This one needs work.  Tentacle is fine though, for the most part.

Ice Shards
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 10
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Standard
Range: 90 ft. (Crystal Strike), 60 ft. (Crystal Rain, Wolfbat's Maw)
Area: One 5-ft. square of ice (Wolfbat's Maw)
Target: One creature (Crystal Strike, Crystal Rain)
Effect: Bladed ice
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates (Wolfbat's Maw)
Flavor Text
This stance initiates three different forms.
Crystal Strike: You make a single blade of ice and fling it with deadly precision at the target. This seed deals 1d6 damage to a single creature as a ranged attack. Half of this damage is piercing and half is cold.

Water Required: One Pint. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every two points that you increase the difficulty class, this attack deals another 1d6 damage, to a maximum of number of die equal to your character level.

Crystal Rain: You strike at long range, creating a precise cloud of shards which outline your target and pin them to a nearby surface. The target must be within five feet of a tree or other surface in which a thrown weapon could stick, and must be wearing loose clothes or accessories. Make a ranged attack against the target and then win an opposed grapple check (size modifiers apply; feats like Improved Grapple do not. If you have the Ranged Pin feat, you gain a +4 bonus on this check). To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength or Escape Artist check as a standard action. In temperate climes, ice melts sufficiently in 10 minutes.

Water Required: Four Pints. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every five points that you increase the difficulty class, you gain a +2 bonus to the grapple check.

Orca's Maw: Ice is a powerful weapon for you, and anyone standing on an icy surface stands on your turf. With a motion, you can cause powerful spikes to erupt through the surface. You fill one five-foot square of ice with protruding spikes - anyone standing in the square gets a Reflex Save to avoid the attack. People who pass through the square in later rounds must make move at quarter-speed to avoid stepping on the spikes. They can make a Balance check to move at half speed (DC 20), or full speed (DC 25). Anyone struck takes 1d4 piercing damage and loses speed as though they had stepped on a caltrop. Anyone that falls prone in a spiked square takes an additional 1d6 piercing damage.

Augment:

• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you may affect one additional square with this activation.

Wolfbat's Maw/Orca's Maw?  Which one?  I vote Wolfbat.

Crystal Strike seems to be...boring.  Needs something else to set it apart from Water Blast with the Change Phase add on.

Crystal Rain needs to be fixed.  The augment should increase the str/escape DC as well as the grapple check.

Orca's Maw is useless after mid levels.  Well, not useless, but not useful.  Needs a method to either increase damage or make it harder to move through.  Or both.  No suggestions right now though.

Water Shield
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: Varies; see text.
Components: Somatic
Activation Time: Standard Action
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Effect: 10-ft.-radius dome or sphere centered on you (Aqua Shell)
Duration: Concentration
Flavor Text
This stance initiates two different forms.
Disk (DC 10): You create a thin but sturdy, tower shield-sized mobile disk of water in front of you. This disk grants you a +4 shield bonus to Armor Class, and does not impose an armor check penalty. Concentrating to maintain the disk is a move action.

Water Required: 3 Gallons, immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every five points that you increase the difficulty class, the shield bonus to Armor Class increases by 1.
• For every five points that you increase the difficulty class, the shield extends 5 feet in size, allowing one additional Medium or smaller creature to gain its benefits. This can be done twice.
• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you turn the shield to ice and you can use the shield for cover.

Aqua Shell (DC 25)Water Required: 20 Gallons. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• By increasing the difficulty class by five, you can increase the radius by five feet.
• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, the miss chance due to concealment increases by 5%, to a maximum of 50%.

[/spoiler]

Fine as a base, but the augments are off.  First off, the sphere use should have an ice option (it actually alread does, but it needs a cheaper one: change phase+this), that grants total cover.  It should cost a good bit, but not as much as changing steam to ice.  Probably a +20 DC thing.  Or +24.

Shield: the increase protection number?  It should be separate shields, not a wall.  Walls grant cover/concealment, not a shield bonus to AC.  It should also be indefinite.  Because a +4 shield bonus for four people will be DC 25.  For a +7 it will be 40.  You can give them all +8s for 45.  Note that a heavy shield at +5 is +7 shield.  And that AC is the least important defense.  I think that makes this seed almost worth taking.  Not quite, but almost.

Surf (formerly part of Water Walk)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 15
Components: Somatic
Activation Time: Full-Round Action
Maintenance Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Effect: Surfboard
Duration: Concentration
HM03 is in the Safari Zone
You create a disk of ice attached to your feet that allows you to surf. You may make a Balance check every round to stay on your surfboard according to the current's DC (see table below); you gain a bonus to this check equal to your bending modifier. If successful, you ride the current at full speed in the direction it's going. You move this distance whether you want to or not.



While surfing, you may use your bending forms - however, if the form contains a Somatic component, you take a penalty to your bending check equal to the current's DC due to the unsteady and rapid nature of surfing. The Surf form itself does not take this penalty.

You can maintain this form as a swift action every round.

Water Required: 10 gallons, immediately recoverable.[/spoiler]

This needs more.  It needs a method to go *wherever*.  You're a waterbender, why can't you control water?  Though I guess the move water thing can raise the water you're on, thus moving you in the direction you want.  How about augments to eliminate the penalty to bending checks, and to allow others to surf?  And what's up with whirlpool?

Wave
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 15
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Full-Round Action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Eight adjacent 5-ft cubes of liquid water.
Effect: Send waves crashing forward
Duration: 1 round
Flavor TextWater Required: 900 Gallons per 5-ft cube, not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every two points that you exceed the difficulty class (including all modifiers), the distance you can move the wave increases by five feet.
• For every six points that you exceed the difficulty class (including all modifiers), you deal an additional 1d6 damage.
• For every fifteen points that you increase the difficulty class, you can increase the wave's size category by 1, moving eight times as many cubes of water.

[/spoiler]

I'm going to add in a suggestion for a new augment mechanic, in addition to the normal ones: +bonus/waterbender level.  This is mainly for the distance of this.  There are a couple I can see with this, I'll try and find them later.  But it just...fits here.  Also, I'd decrease the amount to increase the size of the wave to +10 DC.  And add an augment for a straight bonus to bull rush.  And add in the clause that it gets the str boosts for increasing size.  And finally, this is the sort of thing I can see Surf interacting with, granting movement.

Control Aqueous Creatures (Contains Golem and something else)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: Varies; see text.
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: One round
Maintenance Action: Full-Round Action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One Medium or smaller Water creature.
Effect: Create an aqueous creature (Golem)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (Puppet)
Flavor Text
This stance initiates two different forms.
Golem (DC 15): You create a giant, walking construct of water, snow, or ice, a level 1 bender golem. It appears where you designate and acts at your direction. The round that you cease maintenance, it collapses to the ground in a splash.

Golem statistics are listed here: http://theanteheroes.com/Avatar%20d20/BenderGolem.pdf

Golems are not summoned, but made. They are not subject to effects that hedge out or otherwise target outsiders; they are constructs.

Water Required:

This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every four points that you exceed the difficulty class, the level of the Golem increases by one.

This one I'm splitting.

Okay.  This is actually really good.  Since you can quicken the concentration, you can have one as a swift action, and then do other things, but it's hogging your swift action so it's actually a little weak.  Benders have a LOT of uses for swift actions.  In fact, I'm thinking we may need a generic bender PrC that focuses on allowing more swift actions, or just more opportunities to quicken maintaining.

Note though: this will need much play testing to get the abilities right, but the seed itself is fine.  It's the golem that may be wonky.

[/spoiler]Puppet (DC 20)Augment:

• For every four points that you increase the difficulty class, you can affect one creature one size category larger.
• For every eight points that you increase the difficulty class, you can control an additional creature at once.

[/spoiler]

Why not just say its str score is your wis score?  Also, is that penalty to bending checks cumulative?

Bend Plants (Template)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: +15
Target: Living plants
Flavor Text
You can apply this template to any seed which requires or targets water of a non-specific form. Forms which require an intrinsic quality of free water, such as the Wave, Healing Water or Illusionary Mist forms, cannot utilize this template. You may control, freeze, boil or drain water-rich plants of the appropriate size instead. Plants contain water as water vapor of the same size (an eighth that of a cube of water) and are moved at half speed compared to free water. The amount of volume you can affect is reduced to a quarter, rounded down. (If, for example, you could target four 5-ft cubes of water, you instead target one 5-ft cube of plants.)

Living plants used in the place of water have 3 Hardness, half the Regeneration value, and take lethal damage from physical attacks, and take non-lethal damage from energy attacks.

If the seed affects water creatures, it can now affect plant creatures instead.

Frozen plants have the same statistics as Ice.[/spoiler]

This seems...fine.  But, I'm wondering how you can get an entanglement effect?  Also, shouldn't it be able to affect MORE plants than it would have water?

[dman11235]

Illusionary Mist (formerly known as Mist)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 20
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Standard Action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: 20-ft sphere of Fog, Thick Steam, or Mist
Effect: Creatures inside see what they want to see.
Duration: One hour, or until weather clears
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Flavor Text
The mist, fog or steam turns clumpier and hazier, taking shapes. The suggestible see what they want to see.

Creatures inside the affected area must make a Will Save on activation, and another every minute, or see creatures and objects that resemble whatever troubles them most or they most desire at the moment. These illusions are purely visual, and cannot mimic color, sound, smell, touch or taste - however, ambient noise and other environmental clues may be mistaken for unclear versions of these sensations, and unusually high levels of distress or emotion may cause the affected to receive more coherent 'visions' or 'dreams'. All of these figments of imagination are at least as far away as is necessary to have concealment, and no further than the edge of total concealment. You have no control over what they see, and you yourself are subject to the Illusionary Mist's effects if you are inside.

Creatures who are aware they are in such a mist gain a +4 to their Will Save, and creatures who see with other senses are not fooled.[/spoiler]

This seems....specific...and....fairly worthless.  Plus, there really isn't a seed to create a fog.  I feel that this should be that seed.  So it needs a method to create a fog, and it should have some augments.  No ideas right now though.

Spout (formerly known as Rise with the Tides)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 20
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Standard Action
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Range: 20 ft.
Area: Cylinder Burst (5-ft radius, 20 ft. long)
Target: 5-ft square.
Effect: Horizontal or vertical line of rushing water.
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates
Flavor Text
Target a single square within range (including your own.) You shoot huge amounts of water in a swirling, spiraling geyser originating from that square. Creatures caught in the Spout are allowed a Reflex Save to move to an adjacent space safely. If they do not have sufficient movement to make it to an adjacent clear space (such as if their move speed is 0 ft, or the terrain in the space is difficult to pass through) but make their save, they end up prone in the adjacent space.

When fired and while maintained, Spout initiates a bull rush with every creature in its area; it is considered to be a creature of Medium size. You gain a +2 synergy bonus and an additional attempt for every additional Spout simultaneously trying to push the subject in that direction. If they are knocked back at least ten feet, they are knocked prone.

Subjects affected take 4d6 bludgeoning or piercing damage (your option) every round that they remain in the stream, and are considered checked (unable to move forward) against movement in that direction. If trapped against a wall or other solid surface by the Spout, they are considered to be checked against movement in all directions. Every round, they are granted a new Reflex Save to escape to an adjacent space.

You may instead opt for the Spout to fire at lower pressure; in this case, it deals no damage and creatures in the spout's path are gently pushed to the end of the line's effect. If you originate this attack from your square and shoot upwards, for example, you can propel yourself upwards twenty feet.

You can only move or bull rush a creature if at least half of the squares they occupy on one face are covered by water spouts. Attacking through a spout in either direction grants total concealment.

Water Required: 450 Gallons per 5 ft. segment. Not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every eight points that you increase the difficulty class, you deal an additional 1d6 damage with one cylinder.
• For every ten points that you increase the difficulty class, you can create and maintain an additional cylinder.
• For every ten points that you increase the difficulty class, the length of your cylinders increase by 10 ft.

[/spoiler]

The vertical shouldn't deal damage after the first round (unless you can trap them against a ceiling).  Also, I'd reccomend lowering the augment DCs.  Halving them might even be in order.  Though maybe +6 for the extra cylinder.

Feel the Flow
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 20
Components: Meditation
Activation Time: Move Action
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Target: Self
Effect: Tremorsense
Duration: Concentration + 1 round.
Flavor Text
You gain Tremorsense (30 ft.) in water. Creatures attempting to hide from you while swimming can move at half-speed and make a Swim check opposed by your Bending check. Maintaining this form is a move action.

Augment:

• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you may quicken the maintenance time of this form to a swift action.  For an additional ten points that you increase the difficulty class, you can quicken it further to a free action.
• For every ten points that you increase the difficulty class, you gain another 5-ft range to your tremorsense.

[/spoiler]

I'd say that for +2 DC your range increases.

Healing Water
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: Varies; see text
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Ten minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text.
Flavor Text
This stance initiates two different forms.
Healing Wounds (DC 10): You lay your hands upon a living creature and channel positive energy to them via water. You heal them of 1d6 points of damage, and relieve them of the fatigue and exhaustion conditions. You must wait ten minutes before you or another waterbender can attempt another use of this form on the same target.

Water Required: 2 Pints, immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you may quicken the activation time of this form to one round. In return, it only heals 1 hit point. You may not use this augment in conjunction with any others, and you must still wait another ten minutes before you attempt another use of this form on that target. Waterbenders use this to quickly stabilize the wounded.
• For every two points that you increase the difficulty class, you heal an additional 1d6 damage, to a maximum number of die equal to your character level.

Restore Body (DC 30): You lay your hands upon a living creature and channel positive energy to them via water, directing it specifically to where it is needed most. You heal the target of two points of ability damage and one point of ability drain, and relieve them of the fatigue and exhaustion conditions. This form only works on a target once per day.

Water Required: 2 Pints, immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every ten points that you increase the difficulty class, you heal the target of two additional points of ability damage and one additional point of ability drain.
• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you heal the target of one negative level. For every additional ten points that you increase the difficulty class, you heal the target of one additional negative level.

[/spoiler]

Eliminate the waiting period, for one.  Also change the activation to a full round.  Change restore body to 1/hour.  Trust me.  No balance issues will come of this.  Also, it makes this seed worth while.  Note that you should get rid of the first augment for healing damage.

[spoiler]Bloodbend (Template)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: +30
Target: Living creatures
Flavor Text
You can apply this template to any seed which requires or targets water of a non-specific form. Forms which require an intrinsic quality of free water, such as the Wave, Healing Water or Illusionary Mist forms, cannot utilize this template. You may control, freeze, boil or drain any creature of the appropriate size instead. Creatures contain a sixteenth of the water that an appropriate number of 5-ft cubes their size would contain, and are moved at a quarter speed compared to free water. The amount of volume you can affect is reduced to an eighth of normal, rounded down. (If, for example, you could affect five 5-ft cubes of water, you cannot affect any cubes of creature mass.)

Exceptionally dry creatures, such as those with the [Fire] subtype, may be unaffected.[/spoiler]

This seems...fine.

[spoiler]Riptide (formerly known as Propel)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: See Text
Components: Meditation
Activation Time: One Round
Maintenance Action: Full-Round Action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped spread of water
Duration: Concentration + one round
Flavor Text
You begin to change the currents in a 60-ft. cone in front of you, up to the maximum strength you can control (see table below). These currents act like wind of the corresponding strength, at half speed. (Table: Wind Effects in the Dungeon Master's Guide.) You may choose to make these currents as strong - or as gentle - as you are capable of controlling. If the currents already present in the area are stronger than the greatest currents you can control, this form fails.



At your option, you can let the reaction force from generating these strong currents push you backwards, though being moved in such a fashion requires you to make a Swim check equal to the bending difficulty class (as well as a Fortitude Save if one is required to move at that speed of current) in order to stay afloat and not shoot off in a random direction. You also must make Concentration checks at the current's DC in order to not lose the form. Waterbenders often use this ability more comfortably from boat or ship decks to propel the craft along, or to calm the currents ahead. Watercraft receive a certain percentage of the speed increase based on their size.



One round after you cease to focus on the currents, they begin returning to their natural state as the environment dictates.

Augment:

• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you can change this form's area to a 20-ft radius centered on you. You cannot propel yourself with this usage.

I know we talked about folding this into a starter seed, but I've already massively amplified those, and I can see this being an independent seed now that it has a little more general use.[/spoiler]

I know it has more general use, but it's still very limited.  I'm still not sure if this is worth its own seed.  There may be a way to have it prove its worth, what can you guys see done with this as is?

Precipitate
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 35
Components: Somatic, Meditation
Activation Time: Ten minutes (Weather Dance), One round (Ice Storm)
Maintenance Action: Full-round action.
Range: 0 ft.
Area: Cylinder (90-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
Effect: Heavy Precipitation and Hail
Duration: Concentration + Ten minutes (Weather Dance), Concentration + one round (Ice Storm)
Flavor Text
This stance initiates two different forms.
Weather Dance Dungeon Master's Guide, 'Rain, Snow, Sleet and Hail').

Water Required: 30 gallons per minute, not immediately recoverable. This water may already be present in the air as vapor on a humid day, and does not need to be extracted and condensed first.

Augment:

• For every five points that you exceed the difficulty class, you can increase the radius by 5-ft.
• By increasing the difficulty class by ten, you may create Hail instead of Heavy Snow. This hail deals 1 bludgeoning damage per minute.

Ice StormWater Required: 60 gallons per round, not immediately recoverable.[/spoiler]

The damage needs to be increased to 1d3/round, since that's what hail is iirc.  Non-lethal, though.

On Ice Storm: augment: increase duration to concentration.  Concentrate is a standard action.

Capture (formerly part of Water Whip)
[spoiler]Difficulty Class: 40
Components: Meditation
Activation Time: Swift
Maintenance Action: Move Action
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Large (or smaller) creature or object.
Effect: Swirling ball of water that traps the target.
Duration: Concentration, minimum one round.
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Flavor Text
As a swift action, you may attempt to engulf a target you have just damaged with a Waterbending form. The target must succeed on a Reflex Save or be trapped in a sphere of spinning water. While trapped in the sphere, the target is considered flat-footed, and all attacks passing in or out of the sphere are affected by concealment. The sphere has hardness 0 and 25 hitpoints, an AC of 10 modified by the size of the creature it holds, and takes non-lethal damage from slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing attacks. It regenerates 25 points of non-lethal damage a round, and fails all saves. It is impossible to strike the captured creature inside without also damaging the sphere.

Maintaining the sphere is a move action. The target may attempt a Strength, Swim or Escape Artist check (DC 35) every subsequent round to escape the sphere as a full-round action, or may attempt to break it.

Water Required:

The water you used in the attack which initiated this one can count towards this value. This water is not immediately recoverable.

Augment:

• For every five points that you increase the difficulty class, the skill DC to escape the sphere also increases by five, and the sphere's HP and non-lethal regeneration increase by five.
• For every four points that you exceed the base difficulty class (including all modifiers), you can affect creatures one size larger.

This seemed to be powerful enough, and general enough to make a seed in its own right.[/spoiler]

Again, objects are immune to non-lethal.  It should be able to instantly regenerate physical damage.  The escape/str DC should be lowered, and the augment should be lowered to +1/3 or so.  Start at DC 25.

[Zuki]

Woohoo, much appreciated. I'll get on this... probably either tomorrow (it's late-ish here, and we're only just now having dinner) or maybe Monday afternoon (unfortunately, internet's out at my house.)

I will say two three four five six many quick things though:
- Riptide and Surf are supposed to get used together to allow you fast distance travel.
- Currently there is no modeling of the entangle mechanic, there was no clean way I could come up with for stating it in Bend Plants. Maybe add a clause about move water + bend plants/bloodbend and creature mass.
- Bending checks and ACP are doubled because the numbers are otherwise... small. ACP for light armor isn't that big of a deal past the low levels, and Padded Armor notably has none IIRC. Though I suppose benders are now sufficiently penalized otherwise since they get Wis to AC... hmm.
- When Bending Plants, I figure you can move less of them because you're not just carrying water mass, you're carrying lots of other stuff too... like dealing with weights on everything. And of course, the water isn't external so it takes a little more focus to bend past the outer sheath of plants.
- I want to avoid a bender level mechanic as we already have a bender skill mechanic which is modeled similarly. Could we get away with character level? Exceed is used sparingly compared to increase.
- Move + Phase is currently built to have making mist possible, hence Illusionary Mist getting reduced to one function. But I can see the case for wanting to make a seed explicitly centered around it. I'll work on that.
- Whirlpool is like a Tornado, which means it's circular. I suppose you could use it to slingshot around for extra speed while surfing...

EDIT: Also, this is obviously Astral, Z left herself logged in.

[AstralFire]

I couldn't find the * about increase versus exceed?

And yeah, you caught me, I made most of Water full-round to begin with so that the quickening mechanic gets used. Not a bad thing, right?

On further thought, since all benders benefit from being unarmored for their AC now, I see no reason to keep the doubled ACP issue.
Fixed:
Bending checks made to activate a form with a somatic component incur double the usual armor check penalty as a result, unless you have proficiency in the armor. If you are proficient with the armor you wear, light armor incurs no armor check penalty, and medium or heavy armor incur half the armor check penalty.
Move Water is different from manipulate purely in the fact that I split off Shape Water. I really didn't want to make multiple application seeds when possible to avoid them, since that messes with the neatness and clarity of the table style; since it's a 'starter seed', there's no advantage to keeping them combined.

Water Blast:
The first offensive ability you learn as a waterbender. Whenever you would be granted a ranged attack, you may use a Water Blast instead, including as part of a full attack action, or feats like Shot on the Run. Each Water Blast deals piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage at your option, depending on the exact shape and composition of the water used. This attack deals 1d6 damage when you first take a waterbender level, increasing by an additional 1d6 damage at fifth level and every five levels afterwards.

Shape Water
Activation Time: See text
Description: You manipulate the basic shape of water or ice to look like something else (such as a sculpture), though specific detail is very hard. The Craft skill determines the exact quality of the object created. Simple sculpture that can be created with a Craft check of 10 or less can be made with a full-round action; however, for every 5 points the Craft DC increases, this form requires one additional round to activate.

Regarding Water Whip and object: Perhaps give them a physical break DC instead? I can see someone striking with so much force the whip disperses.

Regarding Octopus' Grapple, Zuki recalls seeing Katara throw Azula around a bit in Crossroads of Destiny, one tentacle grabbing her leg and another her arm.

Re: Ice Shards
I vote Orca's Maw, there's no reason for Water Tribe to actually have lore about Wolfbats, we only see them in the Earth Kingdom. Orca's Maw will get damage and Balance DC augments when I get a chance. Still can't do much against Flyers, but not everything always flies at high level, not when they don't need to. Crystal Strike has a 90 ft. range to Water Blast's 60 ft, and it can be used better by multiclassers. It's also a single strike rather than many, which changes the use a bit (True Strike benefits Crystal Strike, fighting another bender benefits Water Blast).

Surf is intended to work with Riptide for lots of speed through water. I can see an augment for a bigger board to let others ride with you.

I mentioned my above dislike of a Bender Level mechanic in addition to our already present Bender Skill mechanic. Nothing keeping a higher level Waterbender who wants to move overland (and has all four stages of Water Conservation, or at least 2-3 and the ability to pull water from air well) making lots of consecutive waves, either.

Puppet: Yes, the penalty is supposed to be cumulative on both that and Tentacle, every additional round you maintain it.

Bend Plants: Frozen plants have the same statistics as Ice. Using Move Water to move and maintain a mass of plants into an area can, at your option, produce an Entangle effect on creatures moving through the area. Subjects gain a Reflex Save to avoid the effect. If they fail, a creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check. If they make their save, they still can only move at half speed through the area. As long as you maintain concentration, the plants attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement every round on your turn.

Expanding Illusionary Mist to make Mist generally again feels... redundant. At 10, you can make 2 10-ft cubes (8 5-ft cubes) of Temperate Water into a Thin Mist as a full-round, and at 20 you can make 3-4 10-ft cubes (12-16) as a full-round. And multiple rounds allow you to cloak the battlefield. That doesn't make it a great mid-battle seed, but it lingers, so it's great prep. I kind of want to leave mid-battle concealment to Earth and Air, which are shown using it a lot more often.

On Capture's Start DC, did you mean to escape or to use the form?
I'll think more on Octopus in a bit. That one needs some rehammering.

[dman11235]

I respond to your responses to my responses in a little bit, it's just...

I couldn't find the * about increase versus exceed?

That would be because I totally forgot to add it in at the end.

Okay.

* Augments that must be declared before you start should be an increase in the DC.  Augments that don't need to be declared before hand should be exceed DC.  Example: Steady Stance doesn't matter how well you plan on doing, and it doesn't require that you declare anything before you start, so it should be exceed the DC, not increase.  For Tentacle, you need to decide before you start creating tentacles how many you want, so that should be increase DC, not exceed.

And yeah, you caught me, I made most of Water full-round to begin with so that the quickening mechanic gets used. Not a bad thing, right?

Not on its own, but if all of them are full round actions....We should go in depth into activation time after we get the mechanics figured out.  We can do this after all seeds are done, for all four elements.

Move Water is different from manipulate purely in the fact that I split off Shape Water. I really didn't want to make multiple application seeds when possible to avoid them, since that messes with the neatness and clarity of the table style; since it's a 'starter seed', there's no advantage to keeping them combined.

You have a point, and I was taking that into consideration, but what about seeds that are really weak?  Like these two?  And add in the fact that they are similar in function, and every waterbender gets them at 1, it's really just a coin toss on which way is more complex.  There's no advantage to combine them, and no advantage to split them.

I'll get to the rest tomorrow after work, since I'm tired and well be asleep in.....zzzzzzzzz.

[AstralFire]

My thought process on "increase" versus "exceed" was that "exceed" would be stuff that improved regardless of how many points you spent on other augments, quickening, or templates, while "increase" would be things that were too good to not require someone to give up. I think a clause "when you activate this form" (there are a few vestiges of that wording left, I'd thought about using such a differentiation) would accomplish what you're looking for.

Still without internet at home, dude's supposed to be there in two to five hours - but knowing Comcast, I may not actually be online when he's done. -crosses fingers- I've used my saved information to start reworking the firebender seeds since I didn't have Earth saved to my hard drive, and I don't have your notes on Water to work on. (I'm also giving Fire, Earth and Air some immediate action seeds and a few attacks cribbed from maneuvers - like a variant on the _____ Mountain Hammer for Earth, after I saw Toph punching and headbutting rock easy as anything.)

I tried to rework Octopus based off of memory, I basically made it spawn weapons in your square that can be used as Slam/Trip/Disarm (and Grapple, with augments.)

Appreciate the feedback a lot.

EDIT: I HAS THE INTERNETS! Thank you, Support Technician Dan!

[AstralFire]

H'okay, I'm of the general opinion that maintaining seeds in the forum posts is getting a little excessively difficult. This should be more readable, it's certainly a lot easier to edit:

http://theanteheroes.com/Avatar%20d20/BendingChapter.pdf

The Overview section is mostly cribbed from the SRD + the GitP Avatar project, though I did do some things like terminology defining: Seed Form, Template Form, Advanced Form. Seed can also be called Stance (because I use "this stance can be used for two different applications"). Seed and Template are collectively referred to as Basic Forms.

The Waterbending seeds begin on Page 11. I have implemented most of your changes.

Water Blast's wording now allows it to slowly increase when multiclassed.

Regarding Water Whip, I have to say I'm not a huge fan of anyone getting 45-ft reach at 20, but we'll see what it does in playtesting.

Tentacle is still listed as full-round maintenance action. Tentacle's size wording was the cost to make a single tentacle Large size, but I simplified things overall by just making it a reach and damage increase.

Granting total cover with Aqua Shell is actually pretty cheap if you use Freezing Water. Swift it to lower the temp to Freezing from Temperate, then combine Aqua Shell and Phase Change for a mere DC 31 wall.

Surf now can make a bigger board.

Illusionary Mist is untouched, since there are other methods of making mist at the moment and I'm not sure how to augment it.

I disagree about Spout not dealing damage on subsequent rounds when lifting people vertically, that is extremely high pressure in a narrow area, it's gonna hurt.

Ice Storm was already a concentration duration, I just had some unclear stuff in the description that's been snipped.

[dman11235]

Psychic warrior 2 with Practiced Manifester (at least level 3) on a half-minotaur (or other large creature, not too hard) with a spiked chain is 40' reach right there.  That's only level 3 (more because of the likely LA, but you get the idea).  Add in Inhuman Reach for an additional +5'.  Or Willing Deformity (tall).  Both for 50'.  Get larger for another 10'.  I don't think competing with that on a seed designed to have great reach and BC options will be too bad.  But I could be wrong, and that's what playtesting is for.

Something I thought of for Tentacle: it should have a BAB of your bending level.  This makes it a melee house, to give it the edge over Water Whip on its territory, and just make sense to me.  Another thing: you haven't fixed the non-lethal damage bit.

Also, proposed augment: increase damage dealt by a size (not counting as the next size) for +4 DC.  And for the actual size increases, change the wording to allow every benefit for larger size, including extra str.  As for HP/Hardness/regen/AC, I think it should count as an object.  See object rules for more info.  Also, I can't believe I forgot about this until now, Dungeonscape actually has rules for using water as a wall, which can easily be adapted to this.

I disagree about Spout not dealing damage on subsequent rounds when lifting people vertically, that is extremely high pressure in a narrow area, it's gonna hurt.

Think about it.  At the top, it's not exerting more force than gravity is.  When you lie on the floor, does it hurt you?

[AstralFire]

Something I thought of for Tentacle: it should have a BAB of your bending level.  This makes it a melee house, to give it the edge over Water Whip on its territory, and just make sense to me.  Another thing: you haven't fixed the non-lethal damage bit.

Sounds good.

Tentacle got changed to an elemental from an item, so non-lethal shouldn't be a problem.

Also, proposed augment: increase damage dealt by a size (not counting as the next size) for +4 DC.  And for the actual size increases, change the wording to allow every benefit for larger size, including extra str.  As for HP/Hardness/regen/AC, I think it should count as an object.  See object rules for more info.  Also, I can't believe I forgot about this until now, Dungeonscape actually has rules for using water as a wall, which can easily be adapted to this.

I can't really parse your proposed augment... is that supposed to be an individually repeatable augment, or you can only use it once per step? If the latter, that's not much of a benefit.

Allowing all benefits of larger size will add up to a lot of book-keeping pretty fast with all the disarm, attack roll, etc changes for a minimal benefit (largely extra damage, which isn't the point of the tentacle, right?)

I kinda like them being somewhat damageable physically, which is hard to model without going the elemental route. But for the sake of relaxed book-keeping, I relent on this and merely rendered them immune to Slashing and Piercing damage.

I lack that book, so you'll have to do the wording on the rules for water as a wall.

Think about it.  At the top, it's not exerting more force than gravity is.  When you lie on the floor, does it hurt you?

Have you ever tried lying on a spike? Or holding a heavy bag full of groceries with a thin handle? It's not just the amount, but how focused it is.

[dman11235]

Got it now.

Think though, should the tentacles be able to be destroyed?  And how good of a tactic will that be (partially rhetorical, btw)?  I think they may be fine now, but that regen augment is kind of...well...not very useful.  Unless it's exceed (relies on your power, rather than on how well you want to make them).

I can't really parse your proposed augment... is that supposed to be an individually repeatable augment, or you can only use it once per step? If the latter, that's not much of a benefit.

Repeatable.

Allowing all benefits of larger size will add up to a lot of book-keeping pretty fast with all the disarm, attack roll, etc changes for a minimal benefit (largely extra damage, which isn't the point of the tentacle, right?)

Really?  Or is it just +4/size larger you are for combat maneuvers, +8 str per size larger than medium you become, and -1/-1/-2/-4 AC/attack.  Just did that now.  And you are concerned with book keeping on a seed than summons more things?

Speaking of which, as it is now a creature, an elemental, none the less, it needs to have wis and cha scores: all creatures have them.  No objects have them (intelligent items are creatures iirc).  And since it's an elemental and can move, it needs a dex and con score.  You're much better off having it be an object that can move.  An extension of the bender.

Also, what do you see Tentacle as doing?  I see it as a major damage dealer, with some BC options on the side.  The exact opposite of Water Whip, which is a BC power house, with some damage on the side if you feel like it.

As for water as walls: well....not too much info there.  I just remembered from when I tried to create a dungeon that had a maze consisting of various different wall types (and illusory ones where you're supposed to go!).  It has a non-hardness/HP, and the wall requires a swim check to pass through.  So you can't break it (it instantly reforms).  I think that this one should be able to be broken, but it should be hard to do.  Your regeneration/HP system works I think, but it has to be an object.  And things without a con score can't have regeneration.  So, something like HP equal to 5xyour bending level with fast healing (objects can have this, oddly enough) equal to its HP.  Every point you exceed the DC increases the HP/FH by 5.

See, this is the sort of thing I think bending level should reference.  Just how powerful you are.  And then "exceed DC" would be things that make the seed better, but aren't declared before hand.  Like increased power, that's not just related to how powerful you are.  Increase DC would be things like adding tentacles, because you need to determine that before you roll.

Have you ever tried lying on a spike? Or holding a heavy bag full of groceries with a thin handle? It's not just the amount, but how focused it is.

I love physics, of course I was taking that into consideration.  But if you get it small enough to exert 1 lbs/inch^2 you pierce the flesh (this isn't a very...trustworthy source so I don't really know the accuracy of it).  Thus stabbing them and then they fall...through the pillar of sharp water.  Enough water surface area to hold them up would not harm them.  Not in any way to require game mechanics to figure out.  As small as you could go, I'd venture a guess at less than stubbed toe damage.  Or nothing.  I'll crunch some numbers to see what the surface area would have to be to puncture the skin.

EDIT: Just occurred to me: I won't get anywhere doing that, because weight is a factor.  Average of 170 for a human male would yield a necessary 1/170 for 1 psi, as well.  And note that that is weight, or force exerted on Earth.  Surface, that is.

Now.  Think about how thin that is.  That's not going to keep them up.  They'll fall off to one side, easy.  And in order to not have them fall off (and for it to deal damage and not puncture at the bottom) it will have to be a much bigger stream.  And to have the mass to bull rush things, it'll have to be much bigger.  If this is only exerting the same amount of force as gravity, it's not going to be doing any damage.  Except maybe to creatures from 0-G atmos.

[AstralFire]

Gotcha. I'll fiddle more with this in a bit, I need to go for a run now. I'll try switching around some of the exceeds to a bending level benefit when I get back.

And yeah, having DMed for a party of six with summoners and cohorts, I like minimizing book-keeping, even on summons. It gets to be a headache, fast. I don't like all those modifiers flying around constantly, personally.

I suppose Spout'll have to live with giving people fall damage when angled up.

I didn't realize objects could have fast healing. That's bizarre, I would think regeneration would be a better mechanic.

[dman11235]

First off, see my edits.

And yeah, having DMed for a party of six with summoners and cohorts, I like minimizing book-keeping, even on summons. It gets to be a headache, fast. I don't like all those modifiers flying around constantly, personally.

The modifiers make it worth while to increase the size.

also, on Octopus, have it just be an increase in str and reach.  Nothing else.  That way, it makes more sense to have them be in your square.  And without the base damage increase, it can't contend with Tentacle as an offensive option, and holds to its highly defensive options.  One thing though: you should be able to deflect attacks made at allies with this.  That will make this an actual option instead of just being a turtle.  Defend your allies.  Thus making them attack you, since they can't hurt your allies with you still there.  But they can't really hurt you either, but they are more likely to get somewhere when attacking you.  Final note: not sure if the number of deflections is right.  At level 20 you can get up to 11 tentacles with 5' reach.  That's too few.  Try +1 tentacle/2, or better yet 2 deflects/tentacle.  I want to see how that second one looks.  maybe the tentacles get a number of attacks based on your BAB, and they even get itteratives.  This way you can attack 1/tentacle, and then use the other 2/tentacle to defend.  That's pretty nice.

I suppose Spout'll have to live with giving people fall damage when angled up.

When angled up Spout has a different benefit than damage: it keeps them up there.  Horizontal they have a chance to escape, vertical they really don't, after the initial bit.

I didn't realize objects could have fast healing. That's bizarre, I would think regeneration would be a better mechanic.

In the special abilities sections of the SRD: regen: "creatures without a con score cannot have regeneration".  This is conspicuously absent from FH.  Note though that they are mechanically the same except for the regrow lost limbs bit.  Which never comes into play without a feat from SS that allows monsters with regen to throw their limbs at enemies.

[AstralFire]

In the special abilities sections of the SRD: regen: "creatures without a con score cannot have regeneration".  This is conspicuously absent from FH.  Note though that they are mechanically the same except for the regrow lost limbs bit.  Which never comes into play without a feat from SS that allows monsters with regen to throw their limbs at enemies.

That's actually why I expected Regen to be a better mechanic for objects. Things like living walls, I'd imagine, would be regenerating... not fast healing.

You can escape from Spout, you just need to be willing to fall/have Jump and Tumble ranks. Nice against a heavy armored fighter at low levels, though.

I just knocked down Bloodbend to +15 and Bend Plants to +5. They're not... actually that powerful at base, and I'm taking the stance that a template's restricted use should not be from how hard it is to use, but how hard it is to use -well.- Blood Puppet now has a much more feasible DC 35, which is around level 13-15. Bend Plants might have been moved down a little too low, but I don't think so.

Knocked Illusionary Mist down to 15, as it is not a particularly strong ability though it is useful utility. A few seeds picked up the Bender Level mechanic, but... not too many.

Kept the simple water constructs sans Fast Healing, there's no easy way to replicate the precise effect I wanted (where phys damage slowly batters them down while energy destroys 'em.)

[dman11235]

Well, call it "regenerating", but it's fast healing.

Also, why does energy destroy them?  And physical damage not?  I can't think of any instance from the show where there would have been a difference.  I was confused on that front from the beginning.  Btw, the reason regen doesn't work on things without con scores: they can't be at negative HP.  And regen relies on that.  Well, NL damage, and things with con: - are immune to NL damage.

[AstralFire]

Well, call it "regenerating", but it's fast healing.

Also, why does energy destroy them?  And physical damage not?  I can't think of any instance from the show where there would have been a difference.  I was confused on that front from the beginning.  Btw, the reason regen doesn't work on things without con scores: they can't be at negative HP.  And regen relies on that.  Well, NL damage, and things with con: - are immune to NL damage.

Mostly due to the fact that benders (who deal primarily energy or bludgeoning, which the water constructs are vulnerable to) have torn through water constructs before with brute force and I don't recall much else. But that could simply be attributed to them tearing though the attack via sheer high damage. I'll muck about with it a bit in the morning to fit the Fast Healing model, tired now.

Thoughts on the DC changes?

[dman11235]

Ah, but has that been different damage than physical damage?  From what I remember, it looks like they just did enough damage to take it out it one blow.  Come to think of it, I think I may have over estimated the amount of HP they should have.  Double the BL in HP/FH, exceed on a 2/1 basis.

I have no thoughts on the DC changes yet (to tell you the truth, I haven't looked at any of the DCs yet, just the mechanics), that's on my list for tomorrow, along with the earth stuff, at least what you have so far.

[AstralFire]

Ah, but has that been different damage than physical damage?  From what I remember, it looks like they just did enough damage to take it out it one blow.  Come to think of it, I think I may have over estimated the amount of HP they should have.  Double the BL in HP/FH, exceed on a 2/1 basis.

I have no thoughts on the DC changes yet (to tell you the truth, I haven't looked at any of the DCs yet, just the mechanics), that's on my list for tomorrow, along with the earth stuff, at least what you have so far.

Alright. Don't expect much out of the earth stuff, my attention swung back to water for a bit.

[Zuki]

The modifications to Tentacle and Octopus form as seen in the .pdf look good, the size increase mechanic works more naturally and makes sense.

I note that Healing Waters has a Will Save for half effect, this makes me chuckle. "I'm healing you whether you like it or not!"

The DC changes to Bloodbend and Bend Plants likewise look okay, I can buy Astral's reasoning. I guess we're assuming that there's not reason to be restricting mechanical access to these forms, then? (As opposed to restricted access based on a setting point-of-view, that is. I.E., the recently discovered, previously thought impossible nature of Bloodbending and Metalbending, or Bloodbending's canon restriction of Full Moon-only use.)

I'm uncomfortable with leaving Water Whip without any damage-increasing options, however. The Whip is an iconic Waterbender weapon throughout the series, no? I don't think that matches up well with something that only does 1d3 damage. I can see how having to trade off augmentations between increased range and increased damage weakens the whip's usability, and I do like the idea of it being used primarily for battlefield control...but I think we genuinely see the whip used more often as a basic offensive option, knocking people around some and doing damage, especially in book one. In the Season 2 Finale, when Katara faces off when Zuko at long range with a huge water whip on each arm, or uses those whips to grab Azula's arm and leg to pick her up and slam her around, I think they're doing more than 1d3 damage.

I'm not as familiar with the advantages of really ludicrous reach beyond the most obvious perk of "I can hit you with a melee weapon and you can't", so can you elaborate to me a bit about how the battlefield control with the whip will work? They can trip and disarm with the whip at a long range, is that what you meant?

If we don't put a damage augmentation back into Water Whip, I'd like to, at the very leastincrease its base damage a little bit. 1d6, like a whip-dagger or a basic water blast, seems reasonable. Hm. That gives me an idea. Perhaps a small progression, based off the bender's level, would be an appropriate way to scale damage? I know you'd like to work that mechanic into a few more seeds.

I'm busy at work today, I think I had more I wanted to say, I'll check back in this evening.

[AstralFire]

Well, healing waters is a positive energy effect, so it hurts undead.

There's no good way to restrict Bloodbending to Full Moon only, 1/(time period greater than a day) powers pretty much disappeared from 3.x and for good reason, they're a crapshoot on balance.

I granted Water Whip a bonus to damage equal to bender level. 1d3+20 damage per attack with three attacks isn't much at higher levels, and it makes Stand Still a usable option. But the "slamming Azulie around" and "facing off against Zuko" are Octopus uses (tentacles sheath your hand), while Water Whip fits in your hand.

Earth seeds are now in the PDF, though of course highly subject to change.