Author Topic: PCs as the "villains"?  (Read 8853 times)

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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2011, 06:20:12 AM »
I ran a campaign where the party were all mindflayers.  Their objective was to establish an elderbrain and supply of slaves.  It didn't work out so well in the end, which was partly because it was too open an objective and partly because no one really knew how to RP a mindflayer very well.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 11:43:18 AM »
We've done it many times. It's not that different from a normal campaign. You're still a party of adventurers and you still murder everything and take its stuff. When you consider that things in the world are inherently hostile (Example: Anything and Everything that regards you as food, or a place to lay its eggs, or whatever) and it's NOT because they're evil it's just because they're fucking mean, evil campaigns don't really look that different from any other.

We also played a monstrous campaign, where we weren't necessarily evil, but since we played monstrous races the "good-guys" (PHB Races) regarded us as bad. (Actually I think we WERE "evil" but it didn't make a difference.)

Unless you're one of the fuck-ups who gets off by pouring acid on his tongue and mating with gelatinous cubes, the fact is that evil doesn't look that different from good. It's just easier to roleplay.
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veekie

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 03:30:10 PM »
Something I hit up yesterday.


Now, for playable evil:
-Selfish. By the definition of evil in the book, you are a mild sort of evil simply by being willing to profit at the expense of others. Lots of plain old mercenaries, footpads and merchants fall into this fairly easily, if they're willing to hire out to do dirty jobs. This is the easiest form of evil for most parties to indulge in, after all its practically identical to most adventurers manifesto, especially the looting and killing.

-Evil Goals. Perhaps they are a nice person, who does charity and whatnot, but they have ultimately inimical goals that will involve a lot of people in a lot worse times. Maybe they are the affably evil priest of Asmodeus who plans to subvert the government structure and setup things for a destructive war. Maybe they worship aberrations from Beyond, and wish to open the Outer Gates for the 'good' of all. Very safe in terms of comfort zones, you're going to end the world but theres no sense being a bitch about it. Sometimes its the boss who requires regular questionable acts like weekly sacrifices.

-Evil Means. Their goals might be noble, but they've gone and jumped off the slippery slope in seeking it. Save a child, damn the world. Torture people for information, etc. This is also one of the easiest for adventurers to slip into, as well as Dark Knight sorts. This is also the easiest to cross comfort zones, especially with torture, kidnapping and murder, but likely not rape.

-Evil Inside(TM). Maybe they're just that sick. This is for sick and depraved individuals, they like to kill, they enjoy rape, they would turn people into frogs for shits and giggles. BUT, they have to get away with it. They are sick and twisted, not insane or stupid. No stabbing the captain of the guard just because, but maybe, just maybe, ambush people at night and drag them off for bloody murder. Probably what most of the failures are trying for, but failing. Very easily screwed up. This is the refined form of Killfucksoulshitter.
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[spoiler]
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Twilightwyrm

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 09:05:05 AM »
^ Why zealots need to go away.  Making stuff up, and then judging folks for it as if it were holy writ.

I guess murder in the name of stuff you made up to justify the murder is the only righteous solution. :rollseyes

He has a point though, unless I'm terribly mistaken. If reanimation doesn't at least mess with the soul in some significant manner, why is it then that the souls of those bodies that have been reanimated as undead? (This is in fact that case right? I can't quite remember...)
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veekie

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 01:05:26 PM »
^^
The question, can you animate a corpse with it's soul trapped?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2011, 02:27:37 PM »
The rules don't say you can't. Sadly, they don't get into the "why" of why you can't raise them when their animated. They just say you can't. So, is the soul somehow tied up in the reanimating, or is this just some odd notion of dualism? A DM could probably rule either way since the game won't be so kind as to tell him one way or the other.
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Prime32

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2011, 03:21:47 PM »
The answer is simple. Animating a corpse as undead sticks a mass of negative energy into the place the soul normally goes, which controls it in the same way as a real soul; it can't be raised because the soul slot is already filled. Animating a corpse as a construct is obviously less metaphysical, since you can use the same process on any inanimate object.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 03:24:30 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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RobbyPants

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2011, 03:43:04 PM »
Under that interpretation, you could animate the body of someone Magic Jarred, then.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 01:32:10 AM »
Err... since Resurrection works on someone who has been undead or death effected, I would estimate it is simply because the body is too damaged by these for raise dead to function?

RobbyPants

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 07:39:48 PM »
Too damaged from what?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2011, 08:44:50 PM »
Too damaged from what?
Being "destroyed" as an undead.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Twilightwyrm

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2011, 02:18:13 PM »
The answer is simple. Animating a corpse as undead sticks a mass of negative energy into the place the soul normally goes, which controls it in the same way as a real soul; it can't be raised because the soul slot is already filled. Animating a corpse as a construct is obviously less metaphysical, since you can use the same process on any inanimate object.

So the likes of Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Reincarnation would theoretically work. I say theoretically, because last time I checked, that was not the case, therefore tending to imply a certain level if invalidity to this theory.
"If your heart is fearful throw away fear; if there is terror in it throw away terror. Take your axe in your hand and attack. He who leaves the fight unfinished is not at peace."
-The Epic of Gilgamesh

Kajhera

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »
The answer is simple. Animating a corpse as undead sticks a mass of negative energy into the place the soul normally goes, which controls it in the same way as a real soul; it can't be raised because the soul slot is already filled. Animating a corpse as a construct is obviously less metaphysical, since you can use the same process on any inanimate object.

So the likes of Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Reincarnation would theoretically work. I say theoretically, because last time I checked, that was not the case, therefore tending to imply a certain level if invalidity to this theory.

Resurrection and True Resurrection work to animate a creature made into an undead or killed by a death effect.

Reincarnation ... does not. Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb and estimate this is because Reincarnate is a relatively low-level spell, rather than any overarching metaphysical rationale.  :p

oslecamo

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2011, 02:29:50 AM »
Resurrection and True Resurrection work to animate a creature made into an undead or killed by a death effect.
Except you need to destroy the undead first to free the soul. Negative energy isn't filling any kind of slot, because geting a new body won't do, and even the strongest magic can only help you after you release the soul by destroying the undead body.

Kajhera

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2011, 04:04:31 AM »
Resurrection and True Resurrection work to animate a creature made into an undead or killed by a death effect.
Except you need to destroy the undead first to free the soul. Negative energy isn't filling any kind of slot, because geting a new body won't do, and even the strongest magic can only help you after you release the soul by destroying the undead body.
If you try and resurrect some kinds of undead without destroying them first, well you're trying to put a person into a body currently occupied by an entirely different person. (See: wights, most ghouls, anything that turns into an entirely different creature rather than being a template and has an intelligence score.) It would be very weird if this worked.

Doesn't have much to do with where the guy you're trying to resurrect is.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 04:07:52 AM by Kajhera »

veekie

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2011, 05:18:49 AM »
Resurrection and True Resurrection work to animate a creature made into an undead or killed by a death effect.
Except you need to destroy the undead first to free the soul. Negative energy isn't filling any kind of slot, because geting a new body won't do, and even the strongest magic can only help you after you release the soul by destroying the undead body.
If you try and resurrect some kinds of undead without destroying them first, well you're trying to put a person into a body currently occupied by an entirely different person. (See: wights, most ghouls, anything that turns into an entirely different creature rather than being a template and has an intelligence score.) It would be very weird if this worked.

Doesn't have much to do with where the guy you're trying to resurrect is.
Nope.
Remember you can resurrect a person as long as you have a body part. You can kill someone, lop off a finger, reanimate a zombie and then attempt to rez the finger.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kajhera

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2011, 03:06:36 PM »
Resurrection and True Resurrection work to animate a creature made into an undead or killed by a death effect.
Except you need to destroy the undead first to free the soul. Negative energy isn't filling any kind of slot, because geting a new body won't do, and even the strongest magic can only help you after you release the soul by destroying the undead body.
If you try and resurrect some kinds of undead without destroying them first, well you're trying to put a person into a body currently occupied by an entirely different person. (See: wights, most ghouls, anything that turns into an entirely different creature rather than being a template and has an intelligence score.) It would be very weird if this worked.

Doesn't have much to do with where the guy you're trying to resurrect is.
Nope.
Remember you can resurrect a person as long as you have a body part. You can kill someone, lop off a finger, reanimate a zombie and then attempt to rez the finger.
Resurrection specifies that you have to destroy the undead first.

veekie

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2011, 10:04:27 PM »
Yes, which posits a problem, that the part of the body you're using will generate a new body, which is not currently occupied by the undead.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kajhera

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Re: PCs as the "villains"?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2011, 10:51:47 PM »
Yes, which posits a problem, that the part of the body you're using will generate a new body, which is not currently occupied by the undead.

I would hazard a guess that so long as it's distinguishable as your body, it is actually occupied by the undead, if you've been animated as undead. Though it would be interesting if one of my players, whose arm was stolen by a dog while he was dead (in his backstory), ran into himself because of someone who managed to resurrect him from that before he was animated...

Sadly a creature needs to be dead to be animated, and once resurrected, is no longer dead. The majority of their body probably just becomes a plain object then in the arm case.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 05:37:01 AM by Kajhera »