Author Topic: Building a super-thief  (Read 2442 times)

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snakeman830

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Building a super-thief
« on: June 20, 2011, 07:40:12 PM »
I had an idea to build a thief character that always tries to take things one step further.  He’ll take your coins, your belongings, and your prized possessions.  As he advances in power, he starts taking your very abilities and, ultimately, your memories.

The main problem I’ve run into is that last part.  Programmed Amnesia (or Mindrape) is the best way to steal memories, since you see all of them and can remove them all as well, making it a true theft.  Unfortunately, it’s a 9th level spell.  How to get that as well as the ability to steal the others?

Spellthief 2 lets you steal someone’s spells and buffs, so that almost answers that question.  The problem is getting both 9th level spells and Steal Spell-like ability.  While I would love to also get Steal Supernatural Ability (Hellbreaker is the only way I can think of), there is just no way to do it and get 9th level spells pre-epic (unless gestalt)

The best build I have so far is as follows:
Bard 1/Spellthief 2/Conjurer  4/Unseen Seer 1/Hellbreaker 2/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 8/Unseen Seer 1

Using Master Spellthief, my caster level for all spells is high, even with the 2 level break in Hellbreaker.  However, due to MAD, my save DC’s are going to suck.  Even worse, I only have 2 9th level spells known: Programmed Amnesia and a Divination spell from any list.  Very annoyingly, it requires two completely useless feats (Combat Expertise and Improved Feint) and, for some reason, Sleight of Hand isn’t on the Spellthief class skill list (I get it from Bard, but still…).  Finally, while a Conjurer, I can’t ban Enchantment, so I don’t know what to ban other than Evocation.  I still want to keep the thieving theme.

Other feats desired:
Dimensional Reach.  This *helps* steal mundane items.  Plus, a boost to summoning spells isn’t that bad.
Cloudy Conjuration.  Helps in combat and getaways alike
Summon Elemental.  Well, since I’ve got the boost from Dimensional Reach on Summoning spells, might as well make it better as well as get a nice ability.
Augment Summoning.  This one is actually free thanks to Unerathed Arcana :p  Who needs Scribe Scroll?

That’s 6 out of my 7 or 8 feats taken.  Not liking that, personally.

Any suggestions to improve the build?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Rebel7284

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 07:50:27 PM »
As I recall Ur Priest has an ability to steal divine SLAs.  Most people ignore that and just take it as a 2 level dip before progressing it with mystic theurge and the like :P

Also, doesn't Illithid Savant or something like that exist that literally eats brains and takes away the memories/abilities?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 07:51:41 PM »
As I recall Ur Priest has an ability to steal divine SLAs.  Most people ignore that and just take it as a 2 level dip before progressing it with mystic theurge and the like :P
Bah, that's exactly what I was going to suggest. You can have your cake and eat it too with all 10 levels of Ur-Priest, with a spellthief entry.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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[/spoiler]

Halinn

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 10:46:35 PM »
The 3rd party Immortal's Handbook - Ascension has an epic feat called two-dimensional theft, allowing one to literally steal the words off a page.

Tshern

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 11:02:06 PM »
The problem is the book is not worth the online space it takes or any other resources our species might be sparing to perpetuate its existence.
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kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
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Tiedätkö sen?"
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 11:10:31 PM »
Well, Autohypnosis + books + fire = something similar.

And their version requires an epic feat?
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JaronK

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 11:26:54 PM »
Note that to store ninth level spells, you still need 9 levels of spellthief.   Master Spellthief helps you steal higher level spells, but not retain them.  However, bloodlines can help.

So, perhaps consider something like Whispergnome Spellthief 6/Shadowcraft Mage 5 as a start and work from there?  The concealment effect from SCM with a bloodline is quite significant.

JaronK

snakeman830

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 01:32:22 AM »
The problem I see with Ur-Priest and Shadowcraft Mage with a Spellthief base are that they don't get access to Programmed Amnesia.  It's getting that plus Steal spell-like ability that's proving the pain in the ass.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Fadier

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 01:36:01 AM »
Note that to store ninth level spells, you still need 9 levels of spellthief.   Master Spellthief helps you steal higher level spells, but not retain them.  However, bloodlines can help.

So, perhaps consider something like Whispergnome Spellthief 6/Shadowcraft Mage 5 as a start and work from there?  The concealment effect from SCM with a bloodline is quite significant.

JaronK

I tried to get my SCM level to a point that I got 100% concealment from Cloak of Shadow once, tis possible. The problem is it mentions that it caps out at 40%  :(
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JaronK

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 02:09:52 AM »
I tried to get my SCM level to a point that I got 100% concealment from Cloak of Shadow once, tis possible. The problem is it mentions that it caps out at 40%  :(

Drat.  Well, the rest is decent!  Stealing spells and turning them into crazy shadow spells is fun!  I'm a fan of Spellthief 6/SCM 5/Earth Dreamer 5 with a Major Bloodline as a base... phase through walls and steal magic for fun and profit!

JaronK

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 06:56:14 PM »
I tried to get my SCM level to a point that I got 100% concealment from Cloak of Shadow once, tis possible. The problem is it mentions that it caps out at 40%
Reserves of Strength bypass spells limitations, how much is subject to your DM.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 07:15:33 PM »
I tried to get my SCM level to a point that I got 100% concealment from Cloak of Shadow once, tis possible. The problem is it mentions that it caps out at 40%
Reserves of Strength bypass spells limitations, how much is subject to your DM.


It's a Su ability, so Reserves of Strength does squat on that.

Now, can we please get back to tha actual topic?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 07:25:26 PM »
I tried to get my SCM level to a point that I got 100% concealment from Cloak of Shadow once, tis possible. The problem is it mentions that it caps out at 40%
Reserves of Strength bypass spells limitations, how much is subject to your DM.


It's a Su ability, so Reserves of Strength does squat on that.
Now, can we please get back to tha actual topic?
Thought is was some spell reference he was making.

And it's a choice.
Spelltheif 9 steals 9th level spells and ongoing buffs.
Hellbreaker 8 steals Sp & Su abilities.
Ur-Priest 10 steals Sp and can use spells to steal memories.
The only middle ground is Spelltheif 9 / Hellbreaker 8 using the stolen spell though a Runestaff to steal memories. Pretty sure that idea passed though his head though.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 07:30:52 PM »
Ur-Priest, unfortunately, is the worst option as it doesn't really steal spell-likes, it copies them (despite the ability name).  The memory-stealing spells are all Sorc/Wiz, whicch is outside the scope of Ur-Priest.

Didn't think of the last option, though.  Doesn't look too bad, I guess, although it will require more to actually steal memories, it does get the ability to steal Su abilities.

In gestalt this would be super easy.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 07:46:26 PM »
Ur-Priest, unfortunately, is the worst option as it doesn't really steal spell-likes, it copies them (despite the ability name).  The memory-stealing spells are all Sorc/Wiz, whicch is outside the scope of Ur-Priest.

Didn't think of the last option, though.  Doesn't look too bad, I guess, although it will require more to actually steal memories, it does get the ability to steal Su abilities.

In gestalt this would be super easy.
Well the Ur-Priest does really have 9th level spells so in the terms of power it would have more.

As for Rune Staffing up, it's a logical choice for all casters. The Divine Version (in complete champion) is even a separate item so you can attune your self to both the Arcane & Divine versions to gain those little perks on both sides at the cost of gold value.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Building a super-thief
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 08:00:49 PM »
Ur-Priest, unfortunately, is the worst option as it doesn't really steal spell-likes, it copies them (despite the ability name).  The memory-stealing spells are all Sorc/Wiz, whicch is outside the scope of Ur-Priest.
What about Spellthief 9/Ur-Priest 10? Can you UMD a runestaff to get access to any Sorc/Wiz spells you want and use your Ur-Priest spellslots to fuel them?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]