SRD only Wizard

[Faithless tbe Wonder Boy]

Eh, losing a caster level in a campaign like that won't really hurt you.  That being said... what do you actually get out of it?  If there was some obvious reason for making the trade, I might understand, but it's like taking an LA without gaining any benefit.

Seriously... Wizard 5/EK 2/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 = +10 BAB, which is only 1 more than going Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5.  Meanwhile, Wizard 10/Loremaster 6/Archmage 4 also ends up with a BAB of +10, without dropping a spell level, but I would still question why hitting that magic number of +10 is so important.

If you want to drop a spell level, drop it for something interesting!  How about three levels of Human Paragon?  Like Eldritch Knight, you trade a caster level for better BAB and a bonus feat, but you also get better skills, higher hit die, and a boost to an ability score.  I still won't pretend it's as good as just keeping a full 20 caster levels, but it's definitely more interesting (and better) than EK.

EDIT: Crap, just remembered you wanted to play a tiefling, not a human.  Still, the point still stands - if you're going to lose a caster level, you might as well get something out of it.  The EK doesn't really give you anything.

[Tr011]

I looked at the EK... Just LOL. You loose a caster level for crappy hit dice, worst skill points (bad class skills). Also, this class gets nothing besides... nothing? A bit style, any cool 1/day features or just getting ANYTHING could be worth loosing a caster level, but seriously... if you play non-optimized, just give your character a bit flavor and take Barbarian 1/Wizard 19. It's as good and increases your coolness factor much more.

And if your interested in loosing spell progression...: Take Fighter with Sneak attack and Rogue (both one level) or just talk to the DM to take a +1d6 sneak attack item and one level of Sneak-Fighter or Rogue. Then you qualify for Arcane Trickster and may take 10 levels in it, granting you only d4, but 4+ skill points and a lot of useful class skills. Some flavor and useful class features are included. Low BAB but you get a good reflex save, what's mostly worth more than 1 hp/lvl more.

[ninjarabbit]

I'd go domain wizard10/loremaster5/archmage5

1-spell focus x, improved initative (flaw), extend spell (flaw)
3-spell focus y
wiz5-empower spell
6-skill focus:knowledge (religion)
9-improved familiar: imp
wiz10-quicken spell
12-repeat spell
loremaster-persistant spell
15-skill focus: spellcraft
18-quicken spell-like ability: polymorph

[Tr011]

If you don't like loosing XP go the variant with Fighter Feats... it's SRD, too. Impro Ini+PBS+Precise Shot are mostly more useful than Scribe Scroll+2 Feats.

[kalaskaagathas]

Eh, losing a caster level in a campaign like that won't really hurt you.  That being said... what do you actually get out of it?  If there was some obvious reason for making the trade, I might understand, but it's like taking an LA without gaining any benefit.

Seriously... Wizard 5/EK 2/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 = +10 BAB, which is only 1 more than going Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5.  Meanwhile, Wizard 10/Loremaster 6/Archmage 4 also ends up with a BAB of +10, without dropping a spell level, but I would still question why hitting that magic number of +10 is so important.

If you want to drop a spell level, drop it for something interesting!  How about three levels of Human Paragon?  Like Eldritch Knight, you trade a caster level for better BAB and a bonus feat, but you also get better skills, higher hit die, and a boost to an ability score.  I still won't pretend it's as good as just keeping a full 20 caster levels, but it's definitely more interesting (and better) than EK.

EDIT: Crap, just remembered you wanted to play a tiefling, not a human.  Still, the point still stands - if you're going to lose a caster level, you might as well get something out of it.  The EK doesn't really give you anything.

That's something I hadn't considered - I was only going Tiefling to get Martial Weapon proficiency for EK, so I could go Human (which would help with feats and skills) and Human Paragon instead.  However, the DM has OKed Red Wizard, so I think I'm going to go with that instead.

Would a Conjurer 5/Red Wizard 10/ArchMage 3/Lore Master 2 be a good build for a BFC focused Wizard?  Or perhaps Conjurer 3/Human Paragon 3/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 3/Loremaster 1 (or just Archmage 4)?

Part of the reason I was going EK, however, was to keep with the power level of the group, which is part of my worry with Red Wizard.  A Red Wizard with an (extradimensional) pocket full of simulacra and a Wizard Cohort could be pretty overpowering in that group (Barb/Fighter, Monk 2/(Cloistered) Cleric 18, and a Rogue 3/Sorc 7/Arcane Trickster 10).  That's why I was planning on taking EK - it gives me some mundane benefits but doesn't give me anything world breaking.

[Endarire]

I posted this level 8 character (Diviner5/Red Wizard3) for a solo game that never happened.  The DM gave up before I finished describing how I'd solo everything.

Below, I assumed standard wealth by level for my cohort and me.  I also didn't buy any items of spell levels I couldn't yet cast.

Corey and Buddy, Core-Only Red Wizards
[spoiler]Specialization and Build Plan
I focused on Divination going for Red Wizard.  My guys are a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard3 and a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard 1.  (Once I tally my XP bill for magic item makin', this guy's losing his Red Wizardhood.)

I did this because losing access to 2 schools hurt.  Being my own party means I need backup minions; hence, I kept Necromancy for animate dead.  Command undead is also handy.

Offense
My magical offense is mostly a Wand of Evard's black tentacles.

Spell Preps
My spell preps are uncertain.  Spells I NEED or greatly want:

Level 0
-Detect Magic
-Ghost Sound
-Prestidigitation (Keep those robes clean!)

Level 1
-Alarm (Bug, bug, bug, bug my rope trick!)
-Comprehend Languages [Scroll x2 OR my Diviner slots]
-Disguise Self [Hat of Disguise - For planar binding negotiations]
-Grease (beats Epic Golems)
-MAGE ARMOR! [At-Will Command Word Item]
-MAGIC MISSILE! (incorporeal foes, dood!)
-Mount (cheap minion to sacrifice)
-SHIELD! [Continuous Item]
-Silent Image

Level 2
-Alter Self [At-Will Command Word Item - Wizards become Troglodytes for +6 natural AC and animated Undead become Shadows]
-Command Undead (Yes, there are.)
-Glitterdust
-Invisibility [Wand - Avoiding targeting]
-Mirror Image (just in case)
-Resist Energy [Scroll x2]
-ROPE TRICK!
-See Invisibility (fills a Diviner spell slot)
-Web

Level 3
-Arcane Sight (Diviner bonus slot)
-Dispel Magic
-Explosive Runes (My main guy has 400 pages of 96d6 runes.  My cohort purposely fails his dispel magic check.)
-Fly
-Greater Magic Weapon (Convert junk weapons to magical, ghost-hurting shinies for 1 hour/level!)
-Haste
-Leomund's Tiny Hut (Force bunker)
-Magic Circle vs. Evil (keeps the mind control away, and, hey, +2 deflection AC)
-SECRET PAGE! (needed to get 'free' spells)
-SHRINK ITEM! (Adamantium Tinfoil Hat, pre-shrunk boulders)
-Stinking Cloud (Evard's black tentacles companion spell!)
-Tongues (Diviner forced pick)

Level 4
-Arcane Eye (Diviner bonus - I can gather local info!)
-ANIMATE DEAD!
-Dimension Door
-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES! [Wand]
-Minor Creation (cover Undead army and their weapons in gallons of Black Lotus Extract)
-POLYMORPH!
-Remove Curse (backup plan)
-Scrying
-Stone Shape[/spoiler]

[kalaskaagathas]

I posted this level 8 character (Diviner5/Red Wizard3) for a solo game that never happened.  The DM gave up before I finished describing how I'd solo everything.

Below, I assumed standard wealth by level for my cohort and me.  I also didn't buy any items of spell levels I couldn't yet cast.

Corey and Buddy, Core-Only Red Wizards
[spoiler]Specialization and Build Plan
I focused on Divination going for Red Wizard.  My guys are a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard3 and a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard 1.  (Once I tally my XP bill for magic item makin', this guy's losing his Red Wizardhood.)

I did this because losing access to 2 schools hurt.  Being my own party means I need backup minions; hence, I kept Necromancy for animate dead.  Command undead is also handy.

Offense
My magical offense is mostly a Wand of Evard's black tentacles.

Spell Preps
My spell preps are uncertain.  Spells I NEED or greatly want:

Level 0
-Detect Magic
-Ghost Sound
-Prestidigitation (Keep those robes clean!)

Level 1
-Alarm (Bug, bug, bug, bug my rope trick!)
-Comprehend Languages [Scroll x2 OR my Diviner slots]
-Disguise Self [Hat of Disguise - For planar binding negotiations]
-Grease (beats Epic Golems)
-MAGE ARMOR! [At-Will Command Word Item]
-MAGIC MISSILE! (incorporeal foes, dood!)
-Mount (cheap minion to sacrifice)
-SHIELD! [Continuous Item]
-Silent Image

Level 2
-Alter Self [At-Will Command Word Item - Wizards become Troglodytes for +6 natural AC and animated Undead become Shadows]
-Command Undead (Yes, there are.)
-Glitterdust
-Invisibility [Wand - Avoiding targeting]
-Mirror Image (just in case)
-Resist Energy [Scroll x2]
-ROPE TRICK!
-See Invisibility (fills a Diviner spell slot)
-Web

Level 3
-Arcane Sight (Diviner bonus slot)
-Dispel Magic
-Explosive Runes (My main guy has 400 pages of 96d6 runes.  My cohort purposely fails his dispel magic check.)
-Fly
-Greater Magic Weapon (Convert junk weapons to magical, ghost-hurting shinies for 1 hour/level!)
-Haste
-Leomund's Tiny Hut (Force bunker)
-Magic Circle vs. Evil (keeps the mind control away, and, hey, +2 deflection AC)
-SECRET PAGE! (needed to get 'free' spells)
-SHRINK ITEM! (Adamantium Tinfoil Hat, pre-shrunk boulders)
-Stinking Cloud (Evard's black tentacles companion spell!)
-Tongues (Diviner forced pick)

Level 4
-Arcane Eye (Diviner bonus - I can gather local info!)
-ANIMATE DEAD!
-Dimension Door
-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES! [Wand]
-Minor Creation (cover Undead army and their weapons in gallons of Black Lotus Extract)
-POLYMORPH!
-Remove Curse (backup plan)
-Scrying
-Stone Shape[/spoiler]

Thanks, I saw this in the Advanced Wizards Handbook thread, actually.  I'm not sure that I need a CL of 41 though, or rather that it would be appropriate to this game.  That said, I'm considering it.

[kalaskaagathas]

[PhaedrusXY]

I think the exact opposite is true. A BFC wizard is extremely valuable to a melee-heavy party, much more than another redundant melee guy will be (which is what a gish is). A BFC wizard + melee heavy party can pretty well mop up most combats via divide and conquer tactics. You also don't look like you're obviously overpowered and/or showboating if you're using BFC, because your buddies get all the kills. So I'd just go with a BFC build.

Human Paragon is very nice, but I'm not sure it is worth the loss of a caster level, especially since you already have a "skills guy".

[KellKheraptis]

Frankly, if he's sticking to RAW on Polymorph, turn into a Planetar anytime you want full BAB by leeching it's cleric casting for Divine Power, and go Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage as a domain conjurer.  Also adds +1 CL for all conjuration school spells

As for core gish, a Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10 gets 16 BAB and 17 CL at 20, though really a Cleric or Druid would do it better easier (raw combat wise, as in any other contest, 9th level arcane spells are truly THAT GOOD).

EDIT : Phaedrus spelled it out exactly.  The party needs a GOD.  They can think they've won; let the mortals have their victory, you're GOD afterall.

[kalaskaagathas]

I think the exact opposite is true. A BFC wizard is extremely valuable to a melee-heavy party, much more than another redundant melee guy will be (which is what a gish is). A BFC wizard + melee heavy party can pretty well mop up most combats via divide and conquer tactics. You also don't look like you're obviously overpowered and/or showboating if you're using BFC, because your buddies get all the kills. So I'd just go with a BFC build.

Human Paragon is very nice, but I'm not sure it is worth the loss of a caster level, especially since you already have a "skills guy".

Frankly, if he's sticking to RAW on Polymorph, turn into a Planetar anytime you want full BAB by leeching it's cleric casting for Divine Power, and go Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage as a domain conjurer.  Also adds +1 CL for all conjuration school spells

As for core gish, a Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10 gets 16 BAB and 17 CL at 20, though really a Cleric or Druid would do it better easier (raw combat wise, as in any other contest, 9th level arcane spells are truly THAT GOOD).

EDIT : Phaedrus spelled it out exactly.  The party needs a GOD.  They can think they've won; let the mortals have their victory, you're GOD afterall.

Ok, I'm swayed away from a Gish.  I still think I might like to go Human Paragon, since I like having skills (even though we've got a skills guy, we need a face, and since I'm probably banning Enchantment, having cold hard skill points is how I'm likely going to do that) and I don't think the lost caster level will hurt me too much.  Also, Kell, where are you getting that +1 CL for all Conjurations?  I ask because I thought Archmage gave it to all spells, and Conjuration Domain's +1 only applies to spells in the Conjuration Domain list, not all Conjurations.  I'm also not sure about going Conjuration Domain - I'm pretty sure I just want to specialize and drop Enchantment and Evocation.  I just wish Abrupt Jaunt was in the SRD - since I'm losing out on Familiar progression that would have been a solid choice, yeah?

So now the question is this - what would an optimized (for BFC) build using Wizard, Human Paragon, Loremaster, and Archmage look like?  Which Secrets and High Arcana should I pick?

[PhaedrusXY]

since I'm losing out on Familiar progression that would have been a solid choice, yeah?

You don't really lose anything. Go look at the table. You get all the good stuff in the first 5 levels. The main thing you lose is the higher XP cost if it dies, since that is also based on Wizard levels. So it's actually better to PrC out at 3 or 5 if you plan to keep the familiar.  

So now the question is this - what would an optimized (for BFC) build using Wizard, Human Paragon, Loremaster, and Archmage look like?  Which Secrets and High Arcana should I pick?

You definitely want Master of Sculpting. Other than that, it's all gravy.

For skills (from Human Paragon), mundane Hide and Move Silently are awesome, as are Spot and Listen. You can also augment the crap out of those with Alter Self, since you get racial skill bonuses. If you pump Use Magic Device, you can use items from your prohibited schools, also.

[kalaskaagathas]

since I'm losing out on Familiar progression that would have been a solid choice, yeah?

You don't really lose anything. Go look at the table. You get all the good stuff in the first 5 levels. The main thing you lose is the higher XP cost if it dies, since that is also based on Wizard levels. So it's actually better to PrC out at 3 or 5 if you plan to keep the familiar.  

You know, you're right.

So now the question is this - what would an optimized (for BFC) build using Wizard, Human Paragon, Loremaster, and Archmage look like?  Which Secrets and High Arcana should I pick?

You definitely want Master of Sculpting. Other than that, it's all gravy.

For skills (from Human Paragon), mundane Hide and Move Silently are awesome, as are Spot and Listen. You can also augment the crap out of those with Alter Self, since you get racial skill bonuses. If you pump Use Magic Device, you can use items from your prohibited schools, also.

Ok, so I'll want Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, UMD, and what else?  Also, Adaptive Learning is basically useless, since the DM has house ruled that any skill that is a class skill for you is always a class skill, but I might be able to replace it with something else - what would you recommend?  I'm tempted to ask for another caster level, but I doubt that will fly.

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok, so I'll want Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, UMD, and what else?

Autohypnosis is amazing, and Tumble certainly has its uses. Both can be effectively used with only a few actual ranks, though.

Also, Adaptive Learning is basically useless, since the DM has house ruled that any skill that is a class skill for you is always a class skill, but I might be able to replace it with something else - what would you recommend?  I'm tempted to ask for another caster level, but I doubt that will fly.

Trapfinding as a rogue, the ability to take 10 on some skills under pressure, or some kind of minor boon like one of the +2/+2 skill feats (like Alertness, but you pick the skills)?

Or maybe the ability to reroll one d20 roll once per day, or something.

[kalaskaagathas]

Alright, so for my skills I've got Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, and UMD, which seems like a good set.  I'll be able to take 10 on 3+Int of these, he said, so I'm thinking Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, and UMD.

What should my levels look like?  I'm thinking Human Paragon 1/Conjurer 1/Human Paragon 2-3/Conjurer 2-3/Loremaster 10 (or maybe 9)/Archmage 3 (or maybe 4) - would that be optimal?

[Faithless tbe Wonder Boy]

You can't enter Loremaster until at least level 7 (you need 10 ranks in various skills).

The skill set is pretty solid.  Tumble is cool at low levels, although it wanes in usefulness once you start getting magical modes of movement.  Balance really just needs five ranks, and then you can move on.

Other skills to consider...

If you want to be a back-up scout, ranks in Disable Device and wands of Find Traps to UMD will do nicely for you (or you can send your raven/imp familiar to scout for you as well, since it shares your skill ranks).  But that really might step on your Rogue/Sorcerer's toes.

Handle Animal is always nice if you're starting off at low levels - mules are dirt cheap and surprisingly good in combat, if you've got the skill ranks to direct them.  (Seriously, they're crazy under-priced, less than a third of the cost of a guard dog but significantly better in combat, they can carry ridiculous loads, and they have scent.)  It stays good at higher levels if you want to try your hand at some wild animal-rearing, although a wizard might be better off spending his free time crafting.

And yeah, as Phaedrus mentioned, Autohypnosis is pretty bangin'.  Just a lot of really unique effects.

[kalaskaagathas]

You can't enter Loremaster until at least level 7 (you need 10 ranks in various skills).

Yeah, my numbers were off.  I'm thinking Human Paragon 3/Conjurer 5/Loremaster 9/Archmage 3, just not in that order.

The skill set is pretty solid.  Tumble is cool at low levels, although it wanes in usefulness once you start getting magical modes of movement.  Balance really just needs five ranks, and then you can move on.

Other skills to consider...

If you want to be a back-up scout, ranks in Disable Device and wands of Find Traps to UMD will do nicely for you (or you can send your raven/imp familiar to scout for you as well, since it shares your skill ranks).  But that really might step on your Rogue/Sorcerer's toes.

Handle Animal is always nice if you're starting off at low levels - mules are dirt cheap and surprisingly good in combat, if you've got the skill ranks to direct them.  (Seriously, they're crazy under-priced, less than a third of the cost of a guard dog but significantly better in combat, they can carry ridiculous loads, and they have scent.)  It stays good at higher levels if you want to try your hand at some wild animal-rearing, although a wizard might be better off spending his free time crafting.

And yeah, as Phaedrus mentioned, Autohypnosis is pretty bangin'.  Just a lot of really unique effects.

I'm trying to avoid psionics, if I can - the DM doesn't really like them - so no Autohypnosis (yeah, it's not strictly psionic, but I just want to avoid issues).  Also, I'm not sure about being a backup scout, I'm more a face/BFC than anything else.  I could maybe go for Handle Animal, but it's not really fitting with the concept I have in my head - crafting, however, does.

[Shiki]

I'm trying to avoid psionics, if I can - the DM doesn't really like them

For what reason(s), if I may ask?

(I'm REALLY NOT picky when this type of issue is brought up. )

[kalaskaagathas]

I'm trying to avoid psionics, if I can - the DM doesn't really like them

For what reason(s), if I may ask?

(I'm REALLY NOT picky when this type of issue is brought up. )

This DM doesn't know the system, and has bias from previous editions clouding his vision of 3.5 psionics.

[KellKheraptis]

I'm trying to avoid psionics, if I can - the DM doesn't really like them

For what reason(s), if I may ask?

(I'm REALLY NOT picky when this type of issue is brought up. )

This DM doesn't know the system, and has bias from previous editions clouding his vision of 3.5 psionics.

All the more reason to NOT lose caster levels, IMO >.>  One knee jerk can lead to another after all, and having an extra round in the chamber never hurt anyone...