Help me with a melee in low magic land

[dman11235]

The difference between this and high elves is that this actually gives a reasonable bonus.  I agree that certain characters should NOT take this, but I like to never be hit, so I tend to work around that.

[Nodaisho]

Hallack, thank you very much, I don't know how I didn't see that martial stance feat. I looked through the feat section a few times for feats, and I managed to miss that.

New feat selection is

      Martial Study (From flaw)       
      Deflect Arrows   [free to thri-kreen]
      Shaky   [flaw]
      Improved Initiative (MonHum)
      Multi-Weapon Fighting (Ranger 2)
      Martial Stance (9)   
      Weapon Finesse (1)
      Shadow Blade (3)
      Superior Unarmed Strike (6) (+4 to unarmed attack progression)
      Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw)
      Monk unarmed attack progression (swordsage unarmed variant)


At 12, should I pick IMWF or Gloom Razor? I would think the extra attacks to be more important, I should be able to find better ways to get my enemies flatfooted for the sneak attack.

I think I was unclear on the magic items again, I can have as many magic item effects as I want, but I am limited to two items for my character, he could have bracers of armor with the amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, etc. effects on them, and they would count as one magic item.

Necklace of natural attacks looks pretty expensive once you start adding attacks it works on, I am thinking that Kensai is still better, since it costs 140% rather than 400%.

[Ubernoob]

Since you're going shadow blade (dex heavy), you should change the ranger levels to fighter levels.  You'll have the dex to qualify for TWF and get a free feat out of it.

[Nodaisho]

Good point. I lose a few skill points, but gain a bit of HP. But if I go further down the swordsage path later on, I take a penalty for that, since it isn't the favored class. I can still get one more feat from flaws, I just need to find more so I can find one I like.

I would look around on the wizards boards, but they are down (again), does anyone know a magic item that would let me get an enemy flatfooted every round? That seems to be the main problem for this build right now, it can take quite a few swings every round, but the 2d6 damage from each of them is only going to come in to play if I can get the opponent flatfooted.

[Ubernoob]

Good point. I lose a few skill points, but gain a bit of HP. But if I go further down the swordsage path later on, I take a penalty for that, since it isn't the favored class. I can still get one more feat from flaws, I just need to find more so I can find one I like.

I would look around on the wizards boards, but they are down (again), does anyone know a magic item that would let me get an enemy flatfooted every round? That seems to be the main problem for this build right now, it can take quite a few swings every round, but the 2d6 damage from each of them is only going to come in to play if I can get the opponent flatfooted.

Dude, it's sneak attack.  Win initiative, pounce, let ally flank, enjoy.

[Nodaisho]

I guess, I was thinking about if I had to duke it out alone with a mage, but I bet that I won't be the only one that rushes the squishy and mops up his minions later. Blinking armor gives you the ability to strike as invisible, and a 50% miss chance on anything attacking you, but you get a 20% miss chance on your attacks as well.

[Midnight_v]

I belive I do If i might make a suggestion.

The feral dreadlord build. It had a suggested a blurstrike weapon that in conjuction with ... uhmm..
hmm.Clarion commander made the enemy count as flanked for X amount of time. I think you can just google feral dreadlord and the thread will come up

Actually here, you can maybe add some of that to your build, plus you have flaws. I'm pretty sure you'll love this. Pm me if theres anything you don't have access to. Good luck and see you in the campaign. M_V

[Nodaisho]

With a -3 to charisma, that might be difficult, but I have an idea. Collar of umbral metamorphosis and blurring armor, blurring armor gives concealment and the collar gives hide in plain sight, so you move up to the enemy, making a hide check when you reach your destination, if you succeed, they are flatfooted for all of your attacks that action, right? The collar also gives a +10 to move speed, putting my move at 50. I don't remember the difference between blurring armor and greater blurring, though.

I'll want darkstalker when I can get it, but I don't have that book, so I don't know the prereqs.

[Midnight_v]

With a -3 to charisma, that might be difficult, but I have an idea. Collar of umbral metamorphosis and blurring armor, blurring armor gives concealment and the collar gives hide in plain sight, so you move up to the enemy, making a hide check when you reach your destination, if you succeed, they are flatfooted for all of your attacks that action, right? The collar also gives a +10 to move speed, putting my move at 50. I don't remember the difference between blurring armor and greater blurring, though.

I'll want darkstalker when I can get it, but I don't have that book, so I don't know the prereqs.

Sorry I meant to post this URL.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=752637 I was actually suggesting this build as a potential alternate if you were still wavering on playing the bug man, if you're so inclined. I'll pm you the pre-reqs for darkstalker now, cool?

[Nodaisho]

Yeah, thanks. I found the dreadlord build googling it, I want to try a build of my own devising (mostly), though, even though it is an interesting build that will probably work better than anything I make.

[Midnight_v]

Yeah, thanks. I found the dreadlord build googling it, I want to try a build of my own devising (mostly), though, even though it is an interesting build that will probably work better than anything I make.

Yes yes, of course. Still I wanted to point out like his "objectives" it'd be easier for you if you had a clear cut goal in mind.  Further you should maybe try to incorporate some "trick" of your own.

[Nodaisho]

Well, the goal is to get sneak attack damage on as many attacks as possible every round, the ability to get around the battlefield without provoking AoOs, and to be able to move with good amounts of stealth. I think the trick will be the blur/HiPS thing, I guess I should get greater blurring, I would use the normal one, but I am worried about the 3 a day limitation, and it is only 10.1k for mithral chain shirt with blur at will for 10 minutes, which can give me pretty much permanent concealment so far as hiding is concerned. Taking darkstalker with a flaw, which means anything that tries to see me needs to actually use spot, and I ought to have around a 20 hide/move silently modifier even before using the collar. Not worried about the time limit on the collar, that is 100 rounds per day. So, for what is pretty much the camouflage class ability, and 10 minutes of hide in plain sight, +10 foot move speed, +10 move silently, +6 hide, cold resistance 10, and superior low-light vision, I am paying 20.9k of my 37k, seems pretty good to me.

[Nodaisho]

Sorry about the double-post, but I had a question. If I go kensai, if I have an AoMF, would that allow me to skip straight to the special abilities rather than enhancement bonuses when I start using the signature weapon ability?

[Hallack]

Are you stuck on sneak attack or is skirmish based damage an option for your concept as well?

Also, if you go with Swordsage you likely will be wanting/needing the Adaptive Style feat.

Another thing I'm interested in is what abilities are you seeking from the Swordsage?  Is it just the Assassin stance to be used in combo with Shadow Blade?  Are there other maneuvers your wanting?

For a quick stealthy mobile striker dependent upon consider the Whisper gnome for all its awesomeness.

With LA buy off Catfolk (RotW) could also be an interesting choice (40 base movement!!) -favored class Ranger too.

Maybe something like...

Scout4/Ranger3/Swordsage3 (maybe only 2initially due to xp loss from LA buy off if go with LA)
I believe one of the Ranger variants can give you a barbarian style +10 to move.  Scout will give +10 enhancement at 3rd (unless you want to use the Dungeon specialist variant and get a nice climb speed plus not penalties to dex while fighting/climbing)

...Or continuing your Kreen

Kreen2/Scout3/Ranger2/Swordsage3

Problem though is it would leave you light on HP for a meleer, so if you are considering using 2 feats for Martial study/stance consider Warblade for more HP unless there is other goodies you are wanting from Swordsage.

[Nodaisho]

Well, the BCM allows me to (at the expense of a tiger claw maneuver) use all of my weapons in a standard attack, which is good for when I can't get a full attack. Also gives me full str bonus to my off-hand attacks as well (not much of a difference, since I only have 12 str), and removes the -2 penalty for off-hand weapons.

The sneak attack is only used because that is what is granted by assassin's stance, which I want to be in because I need a shadow hand stance to take shadow blade, and shadow blade gives me dex to damage, in this case +6.

Now, if I am not mistaken, being hidden only works on the first attack unless you render them flatfooted somehow. If I get a high miss chance and gloom razor, I could make it so that an enemy treats me as invisible for the rest of the round, assuming they attack me. Alternately, blinding or stunning works, dust of sneezing and choking would work if I could use it as a ranged attack, without hitting myself. Stunning fist would work, but that won't be possible until level 12, and at least according to uber, spellcasters get immune to crits quickly, but wouldn't that mean that sneak attack wouldn't do any damage to them? I'm honestly not sure what to do here, I guess I'll just go with what I have, sneak attack damage on the first hit each round (hide at the end of a move and then attack) and flank whenever possible, which should be easy with a 60 foot move speed in combat and a good modifier for tumble.

I'm not really sure what I want out of my swordsage levels just yet, I need to look more at all the schools available to me. I like the level 5 pounce maneuver from the tiger claw school, full attack at the end of a charge is good for starting off with a bang, and as a Thri-Kreen, I expect I could probably get some use out of the jumping maneuvers. I haven't looked at much that wasn't shadow hand or tiger claw, admittedly, but I expect that I will find some good stuff.

I changed the progression so it goes monhum2/sage1/ranger2/sage1/BCM3, that lets me get shadow blade at third level, if I take a 1st level shadow hand stance (probably island of blades, I already get concealment from my armor, so I don't need the child of shadows stance). If we are going to be playing without initiative (some people advocate it for PbP since it is easier to just say whoever posts first, goes first), I will drop improved initiative, but if we keep it, if I win initiative, my enemies will be flat-footed for that round, and +11 initiative ought to work towards that.

Updated feats:

      Shaky   [flaw]
      Poor Reflexes [Flaw]
      Darkstalker (From Flaw)
      Combat Expertise (from flaw)       
      Deflect Arrows   [free to thri-kreen]
      Improved Initiative (MonHum)
      Multi-Weapon Fighting (Ranger 2)
      Martial Stance (9)   (assassin's stance)
      Weapon Finesse (1)
      Shadow Blade (3)
      Superior Unarmed Strike (6) (+4 to unarmed attack progression)
      Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw)
      Monk unarmed attack progression (swordsage unarmed variant)

[Ubernoob]

Strength of 12 means BCM is a waste of time.  Just take 7 levels of swordsage:
1) MWF
3) Shadow Blade
6) Weapon Finesse
9) Adaptive Style

You get *actual* pounce next level anyway.

[Nodaisho]

What do you mean, actual pounce? The 5th level maneuver pouncing charge? No BCM means less health and less to hit on off-hand attacks, but also means more skill points. Now... should I go straight through swordsage til 17, when I would dip for more BAB, or should I take some PrCs?  Kensai is attractive to me still, solely because of the enhancing natural attacks thing, but I have no idea what I would take, which tells me I should stick with swordsage, get more maneuvers. If I did that, though, I could take int down from 13 (15 before mod), and take strength to 14 before mod, which would put me at 16, +3 to damage, would that make BCM worth it? If I put the stats in dex instead, I would have 23 dex instead of 22, I'm thinking go with the strength.

So... MonHum2/Swordsage5/BCM2? Stats would be at 16str, 22dex, 16con, 10int, 16wis, 4cha before magic (likely to raise the dex and wis, for extra armor, attack, and damage)

edit: And wow, I am really liking the cloak of deception maneuver, greater invisibility for a round in a swift action? Yes please.

[Ubernoob]

BCM isn't worth it.  +2 to hit is really fucking marginal.  Full str to off hand is worthless unless you were already STR based.  If you want pure damage:
MH 2/ Rogue 4/ Swordsage 2/ Lion Totem Barbarian 1
1) MWF
3) Wpn Finesse
6) SUAS
9) Shadow Blade

[Nodaisho]

Okay, I was wondering if it would be worth it, but if not, just go straight swordsage, I guess.

Still going to go with higher str, either 14 or 16 depending on if I need an extra skill point/level.

I am getting an AoMF for magical damage, from looking through stone dragon a bit, it looks like there are a good amount of strikes that can get through DR, will that be enough, or will I need to find a way to bypass DR in some other way?

I'm planning on being at least somewhat the stealthy guy, a collar that gives HiPS and armor that gives concealment at will mean I can be the fucking predator (sadly sans shoulder mounted cannon), so long as the person trying to find me doesn't beat my hide checks I am making with a +21 modifier before magic. I guess the pure damage build has plenty of skill points in 6 levels, but I like the additional versatility I get from maneuvers.

[Ubernoob]

The more attacks you make the more DR hurts.  The stone dragon prevents full attacking (your whole point) and jumping/moving.  Try and stay away from stone dragon.