Author Topic: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???  (Read 11150 times)

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bkdubs123

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Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« on: June 18, 2011, 11:31:04 AM »
The Shadowcaster


"This vast, dark dimension, a coffers holding limitless power, has remained largely unknown and untapped for centuries. I stand on the precipice of this abyss, staring deeply into forces so old that stars uncountable have winked out before their unravelling dark, and I am in control. Of myself and of these potent energies. What other mage can make such a boast?"  - Dorian Strange, Dark Human Shadowcaster.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

For reference, and to lessen confusion, keep in mind that serial numbers have been filed off here. Mysteries are what used to be Invocations according to the Warlock. Spells are what used to be Mysteries according to the Shadowcaster. This is because the way mysteries used to work was retarded and incredibly restrictive, so I just made them spells and that seems to correct a large amount of problems.

After that, trying to keep some of the flavor, I felt at-will shadow powers could still definitely be called mysteries, thus I changed the name of the ability from invocations to mysteries. This Shadowcaster's Mysteries work almost exactly like a Warlock's invocations worked.

Most of the old mysteries (that are now spells) have been altered, sometimes dramatically, so it helps to have Tome of Magic open and to check out the changes made when evaluating this class.


LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Mysteries
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st+0+0+0+2Apprentice Mysteries, Shadowblast 1d6
1
1
2nd+1+0+0+3Devil's Sight, DR 1/Cold Iron
1
2
3rd+2+1+1+3Shadowblast 2d6
2
21
4th+3+1+1+4Deceive Item
2
32
5th+3+1+1+4Shadowblast 3d6
3
321
6th+4+2+2+5Initiate Mysteries, DR 2/Cold Iron
4
332
7th+5+2+2+5Shadowblast 4d6
4
4321
8th+6/+1+2+2+6Sustaining Shadow
5
4332
9th+6/+1+3+3+6Shadowblast 5d6
5
44321
10th+7/+2+3+3+7DR 3/Cold Iron
6
44332
11th+8/+3+3+3+7Greater Mysteries, Shadowblast 6d6
7
444321
12th+9/+4+4+4+8Imbue Item
7
444332
13th+9/+4+4+4+8Shadowblast 7d6
8
4444321
14th+10/+5+4+4+9DR 4/Cold Iron
8
4444332
15th+11/+6/+1+5+5+9Shadowblast 8d6
9
44444321
16th+12/+7/+2+5+5+10Master Mysteries
10
44444332
17th+12/+7/+2+5+5+10Shadowblast 9d6
10
444444321
18th+13/+8/+3+6+6+11DR 5/Cold Iron
11
444444332
19th+14/+9/+4+6+6+11Shadowblast 10d6
11
444444433
20th+15/+10/+5+6+6+12Umbral Lord
12
444444444

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any; taken separately), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Magic Device.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Shadowcaster is proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with shields.

Spells: A Shadowcaster casts arcane spells in the same way a Wizard does. He knows each spell on the Shadowcaster spell list (given below), but must prepare a number of them for the day, a process which requires 1 hour of meditation. Given his pseudo-supernatural connection with his spells, a Shadowcaster may cast his spells while wearing light armor without risking arcane spell failure.

His bonus spell slots per day and the saving throw DCs of his spells are determined by his Charisma modifier. A Shadowcaster must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + spell level to prepare or cast any spell.

At 4th level and every four levels there after a Shadowcaster may add any spell with the [Shadow], [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] descriptors to his spell list so long as it has a spell level no higher than his highest available spell. Any [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] spell cast by a Shadowcaster gains the [Shadow] descriptor and deals half its damage (if any) as negative energy.

Shadowcaster Spell List
[spoiler]

* - These spells have been altered from their original state as printed in Tome of Magic (see spoiler after spell list).

1st - Bend Perspective (ToM)*, Black Fire (ToM)*, Carpet of Shadow (ToM)*, Caul of Shadow (ToM)*, Life Fades (ToM)*, Mesmerizing Shade (ToM)*, Nightshield (SC), Ray of Enfeeblement, Shadow Binding (SC), and Voice of Shadow (ToM)*.

2nd - Afraid of the Dark (ToM), Bolster (ToM), Congress of Shadows (ToM), Darkfire (SC), Flesh Fails (ToM)*, Resist Energy, Shadow Cache (SC), Shadow Skin (ToM)*, Sight Eclipsed (ToM)*, and Thoughts of Shadow (ToM).

3rd - Clinging Darkness (ToM)*, Dancing Shadows (ToM), Dispel Magic, Flicker (ToM), Gaseous Form, Shadow Vision (ToM)*, Umbral Touch (ToM)*, and Waves of Fatigue.

4th - Aura of Shade (ToM)*, Curtain of Shadows (ToM), Greater Life Fades (ToM)*, Languor (ToM)*, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Storm (ToM)*, Step Into Shadow (ToM), and Unveil (ToM).

5th - Break Enchantment, Echo Spell (ToM)*, Ghost Dragon's Breath1, Pass Into Shadow (ToM), Shadow Evocation, Warp Spell (ToM)*, and Waves of Exhaustion.

6th - Feign Life (ToM), Forbiddance, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Flesh Fails (ToM)*, Power Word Blind, and Voyage Into Shadow (ToM).

7th - Dark Soul (ToM)*, Ephemeral Image (ToM), Finger of Death, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Truth Revealed (ToM), and Umbral Body (ToM)

8th - Far Sight (ToM), Flood of Shadow (ToM), Greater Shadow Evocation, Shadow Plague (ToM)*, Soul Puppet (ToM), and Tomb of Night (ToM)*

9th - Army of Shadow (ToM)*, Consume Essence (ToM), Ephemeral Storm (ToM), Reflection of Things to Come (ToM), Shadow Surge (ToM)*, Shadow Time (ToM).

Altered (ToM) Spells
[spoiler]
Army of Shadow - Summon 4d6 Shadows (MM), 2d6 Wights (MM), 1d6 Elder Shadow Elementals (ToM), and 1 Nightcrawler (MM). The rest is as normal.
Aura of Shade - As normal + Creatures that attack the affected creature with non-reach weapons area dealt 1d6 cold damage. Creatures grappling with the affected creature are dealt 6d6 cold damage per round.
Bend Perspective - As normal except that you may switch the viewpoint as a free action up to twice per round (even when it's not your turn) and doing so doesn't reduce the duration.
Black Fire - Loses the [Cold] descriptor. Gains the [Fire] descriptor. Area is up to five 5ft squares and up to five extra 5ft squares per four caster levels. The damage is Fire and caps at 5d6 (minimum 1d6). While the spell is in effect you may spend a move action on your turn to rearrange the spell's area. The rest is as normal.
Carpet of Shadow - Area is a 20ft radius spread. Any creature that passes through an affected square must succeed on a Fortitude save or be sickened for 1 round. The rest is as normal.
Caul of Shadow - Duration is 10 minutes/level. For the duration you also gain a +6 bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks. The rest is as normal.
Clinging Darkness - Creatures in the area of the spell when it is cast and creatures that later enter that area are dealt 1d6 cold damage per round even if they successfully save. For the duration of the effect, any creature that failed its initial save against the spell must continue to make saves against the Immobilized condition even if they are no longer within the area. The rest is as normal.
Dark Soul - Duration is 1 minute/level. When you focus the shadow energies on one living creature and that creature fails its save you control it as if via Dominate Monster. The rest is as normal.
Echo Spell - You may echo a spell or mystery of any level, up to the highest level of spell you are capable of casting. The rest is as normal.
Flesh Fails - Deals 4 Strength damage and 4 Dexterity damage and 2 Constitution damage. The rest is as normal.
Greater Flesh Fails - Deals 2d4+4 Strength damage, 2d4+4 Dexterity damage, and 1d4+2 Constitution damage.
Life Fades - No saving throw. Victim is Fatigued until it rests for 8 hours and the effect can stack with itself. The rest is as normal.
Greater Life Fades - No saving throw (see text). Range changes to Touch, Target changes to Creature Touched. Victim is Exhausted until it rests for 1 hour, then it is Fatigued. If the touched victim is already Exhausted it may make a Fortitude saving throw to avoid falling Unconscious for 1d4 hours. If the save fails the victim is Exhausted after it awakens.
Mesmerizing Shade - Duration 1d6+1 rounds. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Plague - Not much like Incendiary Cloud at all. As Solid Fog except that each round creatures within are dealt 4d6 cold damage and must succeed on a Fortitude save to avoid gaining 1 negative level each round. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Skin - As normal except that the Duration is 1 round/level.
Shadow Storm - Loses the [Electricity] descriptor, range increases to Long (400ft +40ft/level). The storm deals 1d6 cold damage per level (max 20d6). It deals no electricity damage (but it is shot through with red bolts of negative energy). Targets must succeed on a Will save to avoid being Frightened for 3 rounds (if primary target) or being Shaken for 3 rounds (if secondary targets). The rest is as normal.
Shadow Surge - Duration changes to 1d4 rounds. The rest is as normal.
Shadow Vision - As normal, except that all creatures (not just you) have total concealment with respect to the subject.
Sight Eclipsed - As normal, except that Range changes to Touch, Target changes to Creature Touched.
Tomb of Night - As normal, except that the creature gains 1d4 negative levels in addition to taking Constitution damage if it fails to escape.
Umbral Touch - As normal, except omit entirely the paragraph discussing how the spell occupies one of your hands. That is all rubbish and no longer applies. Oh, and the Slowed effect lasts 1d4 rounds.
Voice of Shadow - Duration changes to 1 round/level. The rest is as normal.
Warp Spell - As normal, except that if you succeed on the opposed check you may gain control of the spell rather than counter it, assigning its range, area, targets, and all other parameters as if you cast it yourself. If you choose to counter the spell you recall a single spell you had prepared that day but already cast as if using a Pearl of Power. You may only recall spells in this way that you consider supernatural abilities (see Mysteries).[/spoiler]

1New Spell!
[spoiler]
Ghost Dragon's Breath
Evocation (Compulsion) (Shadow) [Cold] [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Shadowcaster 5
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 120ft cone emanating from you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: No

You open your mouth and release a howling wave of dark energy dealing damage to creatures in the area as if they were struck by your Shadowblast. Creatures damaged in this way are entitled to Will save to avoid being Blinded and Deafened (permanently) and Confused for 1 round per level, but a successful save does not reduce the damage dealt.

You may omit any number of 5ft squares from the area of Ghost Dragon's Breath.
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Mysteries: In addition to casting spells, a Shadowcaster unravels arcane Mysteries, tapping inexhaustible supernatural powers. At first level a Shadowcaster knows a single Apprentice Mystery (see the lists below) he learns an additional Mystery as detailed in the Mysteries column of the table above.

A Shadowcaster may use his Mysteries at will. The saving throw against any Mystery is made against DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Charisma modifier. A Shadowcaster's Mysteries do not allow spell resistance. Like his spells, a Shadowcaster must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + spell level to use any Mystery.

At any level when a Shadowcaster learns a new Mystery he can also replace a Mystery he already knows with one of the same or a lower grade (the grades of his Mysteries are Apprentice, Initiate, Greater, and Master).

Unlike normal supernatural abilities, a Shadowcaster's Mysteries have somatic components and can be disrupted (Concentration checks may be made to avoid disruption). Mysteries that mimic a spell's effects gain somatic components if they didn't have them before and lose any other components they normally have, but otherwise retain all normal costs and qualities. A Shadowcaster's Mysteries are subject to arcane spell failure.

When a Shadowcaster gains a level in any prestige class that advances arcane spellcasting he adds his levels in that class to his Shadowcaster levels to determine his Mysteries known and the highest grade of Mysteries he is able to learn.

Starting at 6th level may a Shadowcaster learn Initiate Mysteries, and his 1st level spells are considered supernatural abilities for all situations in which it would be advantageous (but not is situations where it would be a disadvantage). These spells are still prepared as normal, and they still take up spell slots. They have a casting time of 1 standard action (or less), they automatically overcome spell resistance, and have a save DC of 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Charisma modifier. They gain somatic components if they didn't have them before, but lose any other components they previously had. They may be disrupted as normal and otherwise retain all normal costs and qualities.

Starting at 11th level he may learn Greater Mysteries, and his 2nd level spells are considered supernatural abilities.

Starting at 16th level he may learn Master Mysteries, and his 3rd and 4th level spells are considered supernatural abilities.

Shadowcaster Mystery Lists
[spoiler]
Apprentice - Baleful Utterance, Beguiling Influence, Breath of the Night, Call of the Beast (CM), Darkness, Eldritch Glaive (DM), Eldritch Spear*, Entropic Warding, Frightful Blast, Hammer Blast (CM), Leaps and Bounds, Miasmic Cloud, Otherworldly Whispers (CM), Scalding Gust (DM), Sickening Blast, Spiderwalk, Summon Swarm

* - Eldritch Spear changes the range of your Shadowblast to Long (400ft + 40ft/level).

Initiate - Baneful Blast (CM), Beshadowed Blast, Brimstone Blast, Charm, The Dead Walk, Dread Seizure (DM), Eldritch Chain, Eldritch Line (DM), Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Frightful Presence (DM), Hellrime Blast, Hungry Darkness, Voidsense, Walk Unseen, Wall of Gloom, Weighty Utterance (DM)

Greater - Aura of Flame (DM), Bewitching Blast, Caustic Mire (CM), Chilling Fog (DM), Chilling Tentacles, Enervating Shadow, Hellspawned Grace (CM), Hindering Blast (CM), Noxious Blast, Repelling Blast, Tenacious Plague, Vitriolic Blast, Wall of Perilous Flame, Warlock's Call

Master - Binding Blast (CM), Dark Discorporation, Dark Foresight, Eldritch Doom, Energy Immunity (DM), Path of Shadow (DM), Retributive Invisibility, Steal Summoning (CM), Utterdark Blast
[/spoiler]

Shadowblast (Su): Before a Shadowcaster has cast even his first mysteries he develops a more crude, but no less infinite, power, his Shadowblast. With his Shadowblast, a Shadowcaster attacks foes with eldritch power, using baleful energy to deal damage and scour foes with negative effects.

Shadowblast is a ranged touch attack with medium range (100ft +10ft/caster level) that deals 1d6 damage at 1st level and an additional 1d6 damage every two levels after 1st. Anytime it would be advantageous to do so a Shadowblast deals either cold or negative energy damage (though undead never regain hit points from a Shadowblast), but otherwise it deals untyped damage from raw supernatural power.

A Shadowblast is not subject to spell resistance and though there is no saving throw to reduce or resist the damage dealt by a Shadowblast if a spell or mystery would add a special effect to it there may be a saving throw associated with that effect.

Devil's Sight (Su): At 2nd level a Shadowcaster's expertise with the mysterious shadow behind all magic grants him several advantages when dealing with other spells and magical effects.

  • First, he gains Darkvision out to 60ft and may even see within magical darkness.
  • Second, he is able to detect the presence of and the direction to any magical auras or spells being cast within 5ft per class level.
  • Third, he adds his class level to Spellcraft checks made to identify a spell, either as it is being cast or one that is already in effect. He may identify any spell within 5ft per class level regardless of whether he interacts with it or has line of sight to its effects.
  • Finally, if the Shadowcaster isn't flat-footed, he may attempt to counterspell a spell identified within 5ft per class as it is being cast once per round without having readied an action to do so. If he does, he gives up his standard action in the next round.

Damage Reduction (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Shadowcaster's body becomes fortified with dark magic granting him Damage Reduction 1/cold iron against attacks. This DR increases by 1 at every fourth level after 2nd. At 10th level his DR may only be overcome by magical cold iron weapons. At 18th level his DR may only be overcome by epic cold iron weapons.

Deceive Item (Ex): 4th level. As Warlock.

Sustaining Shadow (Su): Beginning at 8th level a Shadowcaster no longer needs to eat, sleep, or breathe. He gains a +4 bonus to saving throws against magic Sleep effects, but he must still meditate for 4 hours before he is able to prepare his spells. Additionally, the Shadowcaster regains hit points from negative energy as an Undead creature, but responds to Cure spells and positive energy as normal.

Imbue Item (Su): 12th level. As Warlock.

Umbral Lord (Su): At 20th level a Shadowcaster's very being is suffused with raw supernatural power and his mastery over the shadow of all spells has grown to unsurpassable heights. This grants him a variety of abilities and bonuses.

  • His type changes to Outsider and his native plane becomes The Plane of Shadow. Within the Plane of Shadow his DR doubles and he gains Fast Healing 10. If the Shadowcaster is ever slain his body disperses into wisps of black smoke and fades away. Within 24 hours the body appears at a random location within The Plane of Shadow and 24 hours after that he is resurrected as if by True Resurrection. A Shadowcaster's resurrection can be prevented by any means that normally interfere with True Resurrection such as a Barghest's Feed attack or similar effects, or by a Wish or Miracle spell cast while touching the body.
  • At will, as a swift action, he may transform himself into a Nightwalker or an Elder Shadow Elemental as if via a Shapechange spell.
  • Finally, whenever he successfully counters a spell, the unfortunate victim must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Shadowcaster level + Shadowcaster's Charisma modifier) to avoid being Dimensional Anchor'd (as the spell) and Immobilized for 1d6+1 rounds, and Paralyzed for 1 round.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 02:50:29 PM by bkdubs123 »

oslecamo

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 12:28:28 PM »
So let me see if I get this straight.
-You considerably pimped up the warlock.
-You considerably pimped up the shadowcaster.
-You put togheter the pimped versions.
-Then you threw in some more stuff just in case.

Definetely erring on the strong side. This is you're a fullcaster, plus one at-will mystery per level, plus much stronger eldritch blast, plus can automatically detect nearby traps, counterspell as an immediate action. And then UMD backup and craft any item in the game.

You do cast out of two stats, but meh, geting int to 19 won't be too hard and then you just worry about Cha.

And then considering you're even giving it the stronger shadow spells like Shadow Time that are even better than their core spell counterparts, well, this is tier 1 out of the bat. The only weak point I can see with this is that you don't want to multiclass so you can keep geting mysteries and at least imbue item.  Meanwhile you dominate caster battles as you can always find them with auto-magic detection and then counterspell as immediate action to make sure you get ahead on the spell battle, while half your attacks will count as Su abilities so they're extra hard to stop.

Heck, you even made sure to give it most of the strongest spells. Polymorph check, teleport check, gate check, alter self check, feels like I'm reading the spellbook of a pimped wizard. Making teleport and poly some levels higher is interesting, but hardly makes a diference when you've still got plenty of powerfull spells at the right levels and then still get almost all the best high level stuff. And whatever you don't get out of the bat you can craft.

bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 12:50:53 PM »
So let me see if I get this straight.
-You considerably pimped up the warlock.
-You considerably pimped up the shadowcaster.
-You put togheter the pimped versions.
-Then you threw in some more stuff just in case.

Totally all facts.

Quote
And then considering you're even giving it the stronger shadow spells like Shadow Time that are even better than their core spell counterparts, well, this is tier 1 out of the bat.

I'm not sure it even reaches Tier 2 to be honest, but I'll listen to arguments.

Quote
Meanwhile you dominate caster battles as you can always find them with auto-magic detection and then counterspell as immediate action to make sure you get ahead on the spell battle, while half your attacks will count as Su abilities so they're extra hard to stop.

You dominate "caster battles" against strictly core, non-PrC'd Wizards that remain within 5ft per Shadowcaster level of you while you throw spell slot after spell slot of Dispel Magic at them. Yes. Remember that without piles of Dispel Magic lying around your counterspelling is still going to be limited unless you build for it. And, no, a Wand of Dispel Magic won't work since you can't activate the wand as part of the immediate action Devil's Sight affords you.

Quote
Heck, you even made sure to give it most of the strongest spells. Polymorph check, teleport check, gate check, alter self check, feels like I'm reading the spellbook of a pimped wizard. Making teleport and poly some levels higher is interesting, but hardly makes a diference when you've still got plenty of powerfull spells at the right levels and then still get almost all the best high level stuff. And whatever you don't get out of the bat you can craft.

And yet a Wizard will still have several more of those spells per day and he'll have the more powerful versions of them. Not to mention all the dozens of other clearly Tier 1 spells out there that completely wreck reality and snap the game in half. I definitely made the conscious decision to give him some of the more powerful spells. I also made the conscious decision to NOT give him most of the seriously insane spells. But of course, I haven't slept in a looooong time, so I may be missing something here. I'm just not seeing the untouchable, multiverse-shattering power of a Tier 1 class here. Maybe a Tier 2.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 12:52:48 PM by bkdubs123 »

oslecamo

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2011, 01:10:48 PM »
Quote
Meanwhile you dominate caster battles as you can always find them with auto-magic detection and then counterspell as immediate action to make sure you get ahead on the spell battle, while half your attacks will count as Su abilities so they're extra hard to stop.

You dominate "caster battles" against strictly core, non-PrC'd Wizards that remain within 5ft per Shadowcaster level of you while you throw spell slot after spell slot of Dispel Magic at them. Yes. Remember that without piles of Dispel Magic lying around your counterspelling is still going to be limited unless you build for it. And, no, a Wand of Dispel Magic won't work since you can't activate the wand as part of the immediate action Devil's Sight affords you.
Voracious dispelling mystery (with damage to boot) at low-medium levels, then at higher levels caster's lament. Heck you put them there yourself!

Also I must point out non-PrC'd core wizards are still t1. :p

Quote
Heck, you even made sure to give it most of the strongest spells. Polymorph check, teleport check, gate check, alter self check, feels like I'm reading the spellbook of a pimped wizard. Making teleport and poly some levels higher is interesting, but hardly makes a diference when you've still got plenty of powerfull spells at the right levels and then still get almost all the best high level stuff. And whatever you don't get out of the bat you can craft.

And yet a Wizard will still have several more of those spells per day and he'll have the more powerful versions of them.
Wait, how is the wizard geting more spells per day? He could specialize I guess, but he still needs to spend slots on utility stuff, while the shadowcaster can simply use his misteries for utility and then use his actual spell slots for the best spells.

Not to mention all the dozens of other clearly Tier 1 spells out there that completely wreck reality and snap the game in half. I definitely made the conscious decision to give him some of the more powerful spells. I also made the conscious decision to NOT give him most of the seriously insane spells. But of course, I haven't slept in a looooong time, so I may be missing something here. I'm just not seeing the untouchable, multiverse-shattering power of a Tier 1 class here. Maybe a Tier 2.

Ok, then take a look at the druid. The druid has relatively few of the super spells, but since it has two other powerful abilities backing him up (animal companion and wildshape), he gets to be tier 1. The shadowcaster similarly gets several key spells, and then gets the mysteries and other goodies which I would rank at least as strong as animal companion+wildshape.

Now compare to the sorceror, the hallmark of t2. The sorceror can learn some of the best spells, and... That's it. He doesn't get multiple at-will powers to back him up, he can't craft any item in the game, he doesn't get UMD and has lower HD, skill points, Bab and saves than this class just to add insult to the injury. Yet the sorceror is still pretty damn powerful, again more than enough for T2.

bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2011, 01:25:00 PM »
Quote
Meanwhile you dominate caster battles as you can always find them with auto-magic detection and then counterspell as immediate action to make sure you get ahead on the spell battle, while half your attacks will count as Su abilities so they're extra hard to stop.

You dominate "caster battles" against strictly core, non-PrC'd Wizards that remain within 5ft per Shadowcaster level of you while you throw spell slot after spell slot of Dispel Magic at them. Yes. Remember that without piles of Dispel Magic lying around your counterspelling is still going to be limited unless you build for it. And, no, a Wand of Dispel Magic won't work since you can't activate the wand as part of the immediate action Devil's Sight affords you.
Voracious dispelling mystery (with damage to boot) at low-medium levels, then at higher levels caster's lament. Heck you put it there yourself.

lol, good point. Which I did do on purpose now that I think of it. Anyway, it's still a smokescreen because no "real Wizard" is going to fight the guy that close. He'll erase him from existence from orbit. Or from his own demiplane.

Quote
Quote
Heck, you even made sure to give it most of the strongest spells. Polymorph check, teleport check, gate check, alter self check, feels like I'm reading the spellbook of a pimped wizard. Making teleport and poly some levels higher is interesting, but hardly makes a diference when you've still got plenty of powerfull spells at the right levels and then still get almost all the best high level stuff. And whatever you don't get out of the bat you can craft.

And yet a Wizard will still have several more of those spells per day and he'll have the more powerful versions of them.
Wait, how is the wizard geting more spells per day? He could specialize I guess, but he still needs to spend slots on utility stuff, while the shadowcaster can simply use his misteries for utlity and then use his actual spell slots for the best spells.

A solid enough point. I'd call the Wizard and Shadowcaster somewhat "even" here. The Wizard's utility spells are way more efficient and campaign dictating than a Shadowcaster's utility Mysteries, but still the Shadowcaster has some effects that would be very difficult for a Wizard to match.

Quote
Not to mention all the dozens of other clearly Tier 1 spells out there that completely wreck reality and snap the game in half. I definitely made the conscious decision to give him some of the more powerful spells. I also made the conscious decision to NOT give him most of the seriously insane spells. But of course, I haven't slept in a looooong time, so I may be missing something here. I'm just not seeing the untouchable, multiverse-shattering power of a Tier 1 class here. Maybe a Tier 2.

Ok, then take a look at the druid. The druid has relatively few of the super spells, but since it has two other powerful abilities backing him up (animal companion and wildshape), he gets to be tier 1. The shadowcaster similarly gets several key spells, and then gets the mysteries and other goodies which I would rank at least as strong as animal companion+wildshape.

A Druid is Tier 1 because it has Wildshape. Without it the Druid would be Tier 2 at best. It's that good. I don't know that I'd call the mysteries + other goodies = to Wildshape (without even considering Animal Companion).

Quote
Now compare to the sorceror, the hallmark of t2. The sorceror can learn some of the best spells, and... That's it. He doesn't get multiple at-will powers to back him up, he can't craft any item in the game, he doesn't get UMD and has lower HD, skill points, Bab and saves than this class just to add insult to the injury. Yet the sorceror is still pretty damn powerful, again more than enough for T2.

I was thinking of the Sorcerer. Comparing the two, a Shadowcaster has more spells known but from a more restrictive spell list, fewer spells per day, and he must prepare his spells. To compensate for prepared casting and fewer spells per day he has not-quite-as-awesome-as-spells mysteries which are at-will and some goodies. A well-optimized Sorcerer will still feast on a well-optimized Shadowcaster's soul without a single scratch to show for it, but in a more modest-optimization game all of the goodies I gave to the Shadowcaster probably do push it too far.

I'll look into nerfing it a bit (but not overly much).

EDITS: Okay, some changes made. Scaled the Mysteries known back down to normalish progression. Scaled the Shadowblast damage from d8s back to normal. Changed the casting from divine to arcane. Got rid of the really powerful part of Sustaining Shadow. Oh, and I took Dispel Magic, Warp Spell, Greater Dispel Magic, and Mage's Dysjunction off of the spell list. I think that's it for now.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 01:43:50 PM by bkdubs123 »

oslecamo

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2011, 02:02:54 PM »
A Druid is Tier 1 because it has Wildshape. Without it the Druid would be Tier 2 at best. It's that good. I don't know that I'd call the mysteries + other goodies = to Wildshape (without even considering Animal Companion).
On the expert vs monk thread it was said if a class could do nothing but wildshape, it would be tier 4. The warlock is tier 4. Thus I believe it's a safe bet to say wildshape is roughly worth vanilla warlock abilities. But the shadowcaster is geting pimped warlock abilities. Animal companion is worth a feat (wild cohort).

EDITS: Okay, some changes made. Scaled the Mysteries known back down to normalish progression. Scaled the Shadowblast damage from d8s back to normal. Changed the casting from divine to arcane. Got rid of the really powerful part of Sustaining Shadow. Oh, and I took Dispel Magic, Warp Spell, Greater Dispel Magic, and Mage's Dysjunction off of the spell list. I think that's it for now.
Loss of the dispels in spell form really doesn't matter that much as you'll want to pick the dispelling mysteries for counterspelling goodness. Mage's disjuction was probably the weakest 9th level spell on the shadow caster's list as it destroys your loot. The only significant debuff in there is knowing 8 less mysteries, but see above.


bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2011, 02:38:38 PM »
On the expert vs monk thread it was said if a class could do nothing but wildshape, it would be tier 4. The warlock is tier 4. Thus I believe it's a safe bet to say wildshape is roughly worth vanilla warlock abilities. But the shadowcaster is geting pimped warlock abilities.

I don't know who said this, but I don't quite buy it. Yes, with a baseline of "average optimization" (which for argument's sake we'll say that the "average optimizer" doesn't take a single feat that improves Wild Shape) a Commoner with a logical Wild Shape progression is Tier 4. Now that same Commoner that takes a few feats to improve his Wild Shape and synergize with it so as to produce a "build" should kick enough ass to compare favorably to a Warblade. With serious optimization it will outperform said Warblade handily and be able to pull ridiculous stuff like turn into fucking Dragons and Beholders.

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Animal companion is worth a feat (wild cohort).

This is just untrue. Not only does Wild Cohort provide a noticeably weaker companion at all levels, the real difference is that it doesn't have Share Spells.

Quote
Loss of the dispels in spell form really doesn't matter that much as you'll want to pick the dispelling mysteries for counterspelling goodness. Mage's disjuction was probably the weakest 9th level spell on the shadow caster's list as it destroys your loot. The only significant debuff in there is knowing 8 less mysteries, but see above.

While I disagree with a significant amount of the quote, you still make a valid point in there. Perhaps I'll cut the counterspelling mysteries after all and return the counterspelling spells to their proper places.

EDITS: Gutted the spell list and trimmed the mysteries lists. Should be at a much more tolerable power level now.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 03:47:48 PM by bkdubs123 »

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2011, 06:25:31 PM »
Bkdubs123... I wish you would not have changed your class based on the feed back of one poster.
Especially when its not a poster on the orignal thread. . .
Especially when its a poster who has a problem with optimization and caster power in general.
Now you've been denied the oppurtunity to hear arguments to the contary.
Really too bad.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
Quote
   And then considering you're even giving it the stronger shadow spells like Shadow Time that are even better than their core spell counterparts, well, this is tier 1 out of the bat.   
This illustates this is someone who's never used a shadow caster and at this point is just poorly theory crafting.
I'll let everyone in on a little secret. . . Shadow Time is not good...
Why? Because the shadow caster nor this shadow caster doesn't have anytricks to use those extra rounds.
  He can't gate something in, his summons aren't good, there is no forcecage, nor acid fog, nor anything that really can take advantage of that situation at all. He uses that spell to flee, now he could umd up wizard spells, but hell, thats not even worth considering because we can get anyone to be a badass umd user.

Quote
On the expert vs monk thread it was said if a class could do nothing but wildshape, it would be tier 4. The warlock is tier 4. Thus I believe it's a safe bet to say wildshape is roughly worth vanilla warlock abilities. But the shadowcaster is geting pimped warlock abilities. Animal companion is worth a feat (wild cohort).   
Also this... just  :looloo
  There's a lot wrong with that, but we shouldn't adopt as our own random things people say cause so often they're just spit balling or talking out of ignorance. Not Oslecamo perse but whoever orignally posited that idea.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 06:54:04 PM by Midnight_v »
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oslecamo

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2011, 06:37:27 PM »
I don't know who said this, but I don't quite buy it. Yes, with a baseline of "average optimization" (which for argument's sake we'll say that the "average optimizer" doesn't take a single feat that improves Wild Shape) a Commoner with a logical Wild Shape progression is Tier 4. Now that same Commoner that takes a few feats to improve his Wild Shape and synergize with it so as to produce a "build" should kick enough ass to compare favorably to a Warblade. With serious optimization it will outperform said Warblade handily and be able to pull ridiculous stuff like turn into fucking Dragons and Beholders.
Well yes but the warlock can also pimp himself and get fire giant skeletons and Charm a permanent super minion and other powerfull tricks of its own.

This is just untrue. Not only does Wild Cohort provide a noticeably weaker companion at all levels, the real difference is that it doesn't have Share Spells.
True that, altough in the web enanchments there's a  short fullcasting prc that unlocks share spells and some other benefits for your wild cohort.

EDITS: Gutted the spell list and trimmed the mysteries lists. Should be at a much more tolerable power level now.
Yeah now is definetely somewhere between tier 2-3. I quite like how it is now, great job!

bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2011, 01:14:39 AM »
This illustates this is someone who's never used a shadow caster and at this point is just poorly theory crafting.
I'll let everyone in on a little secret. . . Shadow Time is not good...
Why? Because the shadow caster nor this shadow caster doesn't have anytricks to use those extra rounds.

Well, in fairness, before I gutted the spell list this Shadowcaster had A LOT more tricks to use in those extra rounds.

Quote
He can't gate something in, his summons aren't good, there is no forcecage, nor acid fog, nor anything that really can take advantage of that situation at all. He uses that spell to flee, now he could umd up wizard spells, but hell, thats not even worth considering because we can get anyone to be a badass umd user.

And as a matter of fact, you should look at the changes made to the I'd say most of the shadow spells. Army of Shadows is now a lot better than it was. In Shadow Time he could theoretically "gate" in 16d6 Shadows, 8d6 Wights, 4d6 Elder Shadow Elementals, and 4 Nightcrawlers. He also can Acid Fog if he wants because by the time he's got Shadow Time he could have added Acid Fog to his spell list.

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At 4th level and every four levels there after a Shadowcaster may add any spell with the [Shadow], [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] descriptors to his spell list so long as it has a spell level no higher than his highest available spell. Any [Acid], [Cold], or [Fire] spell cast by a Shadowcaster gains the [Shadow] descriptor and deals half its damage (if any) as negative energy.

He still can't Forcecage but he can do the next best thing, an upgraded Tomb of Night. It's not as good as Forcecage, but that's alright in my opinion. Hopefully your opinion will change when you read through the many revisions I made to the shadow spells. Because I knew going into this that most the Shadowcaster's stuff was just so bad as to be unusable. So I changed over half its spells.

Quote from: Oslecamo
Well yes but the warlock can also pimp himself and get fire giant skeletons and Charm a permanent super minion and other powerfull tricks of its own.

Si. Which the Shadowcaster is able to take slightly greater advantage of through his half negative energy blasting (if he is so inclined).

Quote
True that, altough in the web enanchments there's a  short fullcasting prc that unlocks share spells and some other benefits for your wild cohort.

Now that I simply never realized. Huh.

Quote
Yeah now is definetely somewhere between tier 2-3. I quite like how it is now, great job!

I really like it too. I'll still listen to arguments to power it up if people think it's too lacking at this point, but between the changes made to several shadow spells and all of the awesomesauce elsewise I think this is just about done.

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2011, 01:41:07 AM »
I would play it over a warlock 9 times out of 10, and I fucking love warlocks (mainly because my namesake charrie is one). This is sexy, and could totally wind up replacing warlock for me in any given situation.

oslecamo

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2011, 09:41:47 AM »
One thing you may want to clarify is how this interacts with casting prcs. Do you advance both spellcasting and mysteries? What about shadowblast? Does he still learns new spells of acid/fire/shadow/cold every four levels? Personally I say it would be fair to advance spellcasting, mysteries and shadowblast, but you no longer learn the extra spells.

Tenebrus

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 02:22:18 AM »
Nice work.  I just took a glance at this and agree it may go a bit too far.  I suppose a philosophical argument is whether your goal is to make something competitive with other full casters or simply to rescue 2 very flavorful classes from the PC sewer.  I'm shooting for something closer to the 2nd option (looking for an enjoyable mid Tier 3) and it looks like you've assembled a capable high Tier 2 full caster able to compete, and arguably stomp, other full casters.

I look forward to reading more, and drawing up an enemy NPC to see how your fixes work.

bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 08:50:29 AM »
One thing you may want to clarify is how this interacts with casting prcs. Do you advance both spellcasting and mysteries? What about shadowblast? Does he still learns new spells of acid/fire/shadow/cold every four levels? Personally I say it would be fair to advance spellcasting, mysteries and shadowblast, but you no longer learn the extra spells.

There's actually a little bit more than that I need to clarify, but that's a good point. My ruling on it would be that casting PrCs would advance both the spell casting (including the acid/cold/fire/shadow spell additions) and mysteries, but it would not advance Shadowblast.

Nice work.  I just took a glance at this and agree it may go a bit too far.  I suppose a philosophical argument is whether your goal is to make something competitive with other full casters or simply to rescue 2 very flavorful classes from the PC sewer.  I'm shooting for something closer to the 2nd option (looking for an enjoyable mid Tier 3) and it looks like you've assembled a capable high Tier 2 full caster able to compete, and arguably stomp, other full casters.

I look forward to reading more, and drawing up an enemy NPC to see how your fixes work.

It started out as an attempt to simply "rescue 2 very flavorful classes for the sewer" as you nicely put it, but it evolved more or less as I worked on it. I think I would label this as Tier 2 and generally below a Sorcerer of equal level. It's quite powerful and capable of functioning in a wide variety of party roles. It gets powerful spells at all levels and has access to many different paths of optimization.

I have a few things to clarify, a nerf to Devil's Sight planned, and an added "switch mysteries out" clause to give the class some extra flexibility (which is always good). A couple questions for those who are interested:

1) I've been deliberating over whether or not to limit the "your spells become supernatural abilities" to 1st-3rd level spells or not. What you do you think?

2) Instead of making whole swaths of spells into supernatural abilities would it be more interesting to allow the Shadowcaster to take spells from his spell list as mysteries? IE: At 6th level he could learn any 1st or 2nd level spell from his spell list as an Initiate Mystery?

Tenebrus

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 02:12:13 PM »

Tenebrus

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Re: Shadowcaster + Warlock = Profit???
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 05:23:08 PM »
And the various versions of Shadowcaster for Pathfinder also seem good.