Author Topic: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).  (Read 6525 times)

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RavenWard

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Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« on: June 18, 2011, 04:41:10 AM »
Starting off my request for build advice with a pun.  Hopefully this works.   :D

I'm playing a cleric in my friend's 3.5 game, and the Bone Knight caught my eye.  I lurked for a bit and put together a 1st-level character with a fair amount of potential, but wanted to run it piece-by-piece by all of you and see what you think.

For race, I looked and realized that nobody had hit upon the idea of applying the Lesser Planetouched template to the Zenythri from MM2.  It seemed, from a battle cleric perspective, to be a no-brainer.

Our point buy is ridiculously downright obnoxiously crazy-go-nuts large.  52-point buy.  I've chosen Str 20, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 14.

For a deity, I was allowed to create something of my own so long as it wasn't something too far from something that already existed.  I used Halmyr from Complete Warrior as a base, adding an undeath element, a bastard sword as a favored weapon, and moving up to LG to create The Undying Lord, a demigod of tactical warfare that emphasizes truly endless patience and long-term views.  My DM is pretty cool when it comes to making things up so long as it has a delicious flavor to its fluff.

That brings me to...

Athanasius
LG Lesser Zenythri Cloistered Cleric of The Undying Lord 1
Domains:  Knowledge, War, Planning

Feats:  (Bonus) Weapon Focus/Proficiency [Bastard Sword]
(Bonus) Extend Spell
Practiced Spellcaster (cleric)
Skill Focus [Concentration]
Persistent Spell
Flaw:  Implacable
Flaw:  Shaky

Skills: Concentration 4 ranks
Craft (armorsmithing) 4 ranks
Craft (weaponsmithing) 4 ranks
Jump 1 rank
Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2 ranks
Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks
Spellcraft 4 ranks

Why cloistered cleric?  The way I figure, the initial sacrifice of hit points and base attack are compensated for by my high stats now, and later on by spells and class features.  Plus, the extra skill points let me meet the requirements for getting all of this by level 7:

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Bone Knight 1

Why Church Inquisitor at level 4?  For the Inquisition domain, and so I can trade its useless granted power away (along with the Knowledge domain's granted power) for Power Attack and Mounted Combat at level 5, allowing me to qualify for Prestige Paladin much more easily and getting some really nice spells on my list early.

For feats, I'm figuring on picking up Knowledge Devotion at level 3, and Shielded Spellcaster at level 6.  I also know what other feats I want to fit in there later(DMM: Persist, Planar Touchstone, Leap Attack, etc).

My real issue is once I've qualified for both Ordained Champion and Bone Knight, how should I progress them?  Should I run Bone Knight until I get the bucket of immunities then switch back to Ordained Champ, or fill out Champ right away?  Or really, would this build even pass muster on this board?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 04:52:52 AM by RavenWard »

dark_samuari

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 05:48:30 AM »
Or really, would this build even pass muster on this board?

I wouldn't be too alarmed with the strength of the build, Cleric into Bone Knight is almost never a bad choice...

Regarding some of your choices I really like the flavor of the Undying Lord but have to ask if Skill Focus (Concentration) is really needed? I also don't know what type of character you are going for but I always hate to see a character without at least one social-based skill but if you are going for a war-scholar it might work.

Mixster

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 07:44:04 AM »
If dragon magazine is allowed, Troll-Blooded is THE feat for bone knights.

Consider that the undying lord also encompasses slavery (or freed slaves in case he is good9, and thus favors the spiked chain as his weapon.

I would run bone knight until 4, where you get the first immunities, then run ordained up to 4, before you lose the last advancement to casting, then I'd finish Bone Knight.

When you can basically choose the weapon you want, there is no reason whatsoever to choose bastard sword.

Consider adding a few levels of radiant servant to the mix, it's a pretty good way to get a few more domains, as well as all martial weapons.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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JaronK

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2011, 08:21:49 AM »
IIRC you convert paladin levels for getting mounts when you become a Bone Knight, so I'd try to fit a second PrC Paladin level in there, and maybe even take the Holy Mount feat.

JaronK

RavenWard

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2011, 02:41:33 PM »
Regarding some of your choices I really like the flavor of the Undying Lord but have to ask if Skill Focus (Concentration) is really needed?


Ah, forgot to add that we have a house rule that Skill Focus [Concentration] is a substitute for Combat Casting as far as meeting feat pre-req's.  I wouldn't bother making the investment to pick up Shielded Spellcaster later otherwise.

If dragon magazine is allowed, Troll-Blooded is THE feat for bone knights.

Consider that the undying lord also encompasses slavery (or freed slaves in case he is good9, and thus favors the spiked chain as his weapon.

I would run bone knight until 4, where you get the first immunities, then run ordained up to 4, before you lose the last advancement to casting, then I'd finish Bone Knight.

When you can basically choose the weapon you want, there is no reason whatsoever to choose bastard sword.

Consider adding a few levels of radiant servant to the mix, it's a pretty good way to get a few more domains, as well as all martial weapons.

This is very helpful!  Thanks for the advice on how to stagger the levels.

As far as using the spiked chain, one of the caveats my DM put out there was based on the strength of my deity's domains, I had to choose a martial weapon.  I haggled to get a bastard sword in there, which means that I can eventually just use a really big one in two hands.

Troll-Blooded...I like that being a Bone Knight will eventually eliminate the drawback of the feat, plus the fact that OMG regen, but getting up there is going to be a tremendously painful exercise considering we're doing a lot of overland travel.  Also, taking Toughness for any reason just doesn't sit well with me.  If I were starting at a higher level, it'd be an easy choice.  However, right now I just don't like it.

Radiant Servant requires access to the Sun domain, which simply won't happen.  I'll get martial weapons from the other classes anyway.

IIRC you convert paladin levels for getting mounts when you become a Bone Knight, so I'd try to fit a second PrC Paladin level in there, and maybe even take the Holy Mount feat.

JaronK

That's a viable option if I don't finish the ending with Ordained Champ.  Otherwise I'd lose a fourth caster level, which means no 9th-level spells for me.  And that's forty cakes terrible.

What it looks like so far is this:  Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champ 1/PrC Paladin 1/Bone Knight 4/Ordained Champ 2/Bone Knight 6/XX 2.  The last two levels should be...what?  I'm thinking about just finishing out Ordained Champion, but I'd love to hear other options.  Maybe that second level of PrC Pally and something else, or a couple levels of Contemplative for slippery mind.  I'm open to suggestions.

Bigtuna

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 11:33:43 AM »
ACF Divine magician. If you are going for Ordanied cham you might as well pick up some nice spells to channel.

Prestige paladin adds paladin spells to your class list - if they are still paladin spells - then battle blessing - cast as a swift action.

if you are going for DMM - consider putting more in cha.
If dragonlance is accepted dymanic priest allows you to use cha as your casting stat (not DC though). Which makes prestige paladin 2 and option for divine Grace. - Sure you loose a CL (which goes against the rules off optimization) BUT you are not starting at level 20 you have to fight your way through all those levels and cha to saves will mostlikely save your bacon more than once.

And other option is prestige paladin 2 + serenity (drag. com) which makes turn undead, divine grace (and i think smite as well) wis based.
Now Cha is a dump stat - add to dex or int instead :-)

Losing lvl 9 spells - well ask your self what are your cha? A caster or a fighter? If you are primary a caster why did you pick Bone knight? If you are a bad ass fighter with a cool armor - then loosing a Cl here and there is acceptable...

And finally - prestige paladin has to be good - good clerics channel positive energy. Bone knights have to channel neg. energy (rebuke undead)
options:
1) Ask the Gm nicely - seems like and option in your case
2) prestige paladin of tyrrany/slaughter - but now you EVIL.
3) Drop prestige paladin, get to the bone knight immunities faster...


Ivory Knight

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 01:07:08 PM »
Sun Domain could be gained from Knight of the Raven(Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), which is a pretty cool undeadhunting PrC in it's own right.
Otherwise, you might want to look into Tome of Battle(for Crusader & Ruby Knight Vindicator).

In your current build, you have Cloistered Cleric 3, going to 4 will get you +1 BaB.
If you can fill the requirements(IIRC Skillfocus: Knowledge religion can be bought as treasure from a magical location), Divine Oracle 2 for 1 more Domain(if you get it before taking Ordained Champion, that may be 1 more combat feat and would free up your Knowledge domain to be traded for the devotion feat) and what amounts to Evasion in heavy armor could be a good investment.

If you have the turn attempts to use it often, consider taking Awesome Smite(Complete Champion).

Bigtuna

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 01:50:02 PM »
forgot one:

4) be good, be lawfull good even, take prestige paladin lvl 1-2, do something really EVIL, (i'll leave how up to you, but if happen to travel with a necromancer protecting some small child and then abandon it so it's killed and posible rising as a slaymate could be usefull) - thus making your turn undead to rebuke. Lose cl + paladin abilities - then take bone knight 1 - that should restore your paladin abilities.

 

Bard

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Re: Working myself to the Bone (Knight).
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 03:58:16 PM »
With those stats and a build like that it might be worth getting the second level of Prestige Paladin, that way you get a nice bonus on saves.
Considering your stats also I'd get the Serenity feat from the Dragon Compendium that lets you use Wisdom instead of Charisma for all paladin powers, including turn undead for the cleric too, that way you get AT LEAST a +4 to all saves and you can drop Charisma to 10, increasing Dexterity.
An increase dexerity will help for your AC (even the worst kind of heavy armor has a +1 dex bonus allowed, that becomes +3 if it's Mithril), also will let you focus on AoO a bit more if you feel like it.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]