Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 175694 times)

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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #680 on: July 21, 2011, 03:12:16 PM »
Getting a white dragon in his lair is very hard. They would probably have winding ice filled tunnels that would be impossible to follow them in without average or better flight, and the ability to suddenly turn about and attack anyone that attempts to follow it but can't stand the assault. As well as a nice deal of spells, like Silent Image & others to make it harder to follow him.

If he does fly down and try to eat a random member of the minion flock, the Dragon is kindda fucked. But why he would do that, is still beyond me.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #681 on: July 21, 2011, 03:27:13 PM »
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.

Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat.  Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard.  That might work great.

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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #682 on: July 21, 2011, 03:38:17 PM »
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.

Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat.  Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard.  That might work great.

JaronK

Remember to have him yell orders at random all the time.

A properly played white dragon would probably use hit and run tactics against groups. Hide behind a silent image, in an icy filled ceiling tunnel entrance, fire off a breath weapon. Move back and knock lose some rocks that stop pursuers. Come in through the side of another tunnel, and fly past while snatching up a straggler from the group, before moving through a tunnel in the other side.

Attacking a group sporting multiple wizard looking guys and a bunch of zombie hydras directly just seem to rash for an ambushing creature.

But I'm very much up for DM'ing a fight against a Brass Dragon, which I find even better. I will roll the treasure for it randomly, and anything in there it can use it will use, the rest will be in a pile. I'm up for both of you facing off against it.
Alternatively I can do two CR 11 dragons working in a tag team instead. Which would be a bigger problem for both of you IMO.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #683 on: July 21, 2011, 03:50:16 PM »
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.

Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat.  Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard.  That might work great.

JaronK

Remember to have him yell orders at random all the time.

A properly played white dragon would probably use hit and run tactics against groups. Hide behind a silent image, in an icy filled ceiling tunnel entrance, fire off a breath weapon. Move back and knock lose some rocks that stop pursuers. Come in through the side of another tunnel, and fly past while snatching up a straggler from the group, before moving through a tunnel in the other side.

Attacking a group sporting multiple wizard looking guys and a bunch of zombie hydras directly just seem to rash for an ambushing creature.

But I'm very much up for DM'ing a fight against a Brass Dragon, which I find even better. I will roll the treasure for it randomly, and anything in there it can use it will use, the rest will be in a pile. I'm up for both of you facing off against it.
Alternatively I can do two CR 11 dragons working in a tag team instead. Which would be a bigger problem for both of you IMO.

2 x CR 11 = CR 13
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #684 on: July 21, 2011, 04:02:31 PM »
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #685 on: July 21, 2011, 04:05:22 PM »
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.

Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat.  Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard.  That might work great.

JaronK

Remember to have him yell orders at random all the time.

A properly played white dragon would probably use hit and run tactics against groups. Hide behind a silent image, in an icy filled ceiling tunnel entrance, fire off a breath weapon. Move back and knock lose some rocks that stop pursuers. Come in through the side of another tunnel, and fly past while snatching up a straggler from the group, before moving through a tunnel in the other side.

Attacking a group sporting multiple wizard looking guys and a bunch of zombie hydras directly just seem to rash for an ambushing creature.

But I'm very much up for DM'ing a fight against a Brass Dragon, which I find even better. I will roll the treasure for it randomly, and anything in there it can use it will use, the rest will be in a pile. I'm up for both of you facing off against it.
Alternatively I can do two CR 11 dragons working in a tag team instead. Which would be a bigger problem for both of you IMO.

2 x CR 11 = CR 13

Right, Cr 10 it is then. A pair of Juvenile Silver Dragons?

JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)

A bunch of dominated threats the adept has met earlier? Like that Mind flayer from three caves back and those two Troll archers. And the Cleric who decided he wanted to take on the horde of undead coming his way?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 04:07:11 PM by Mixster »
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #686 on: July 21, 2011, 05:29:46 PM »
Just to bring it up, Necrotic Domination is Humanoids only.  Necrotic Tumor (which works on anything) is 7th level, so the Adept can never get it.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #687 on: July 21, 2011, 05:32:10 PM »
Just to bring it up, Necrotic Domination is Humanoids only.  Necrotic Tumor (which works on anything) is 7th level, so the Adept can never get it.
And yet ND works on dragons if JaronK can find ways to turn the dragon humanoid. Via, say, Polymorph (which, wonder of wonders, the adept has!).
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #688 on: July 21, 2011, 06:23:56 PM »
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)

Once again, due to having Mother Cyst he can dominate random people he's fought (anyone who was grappled and pinned by his other minions so he could land the effect, anyone knocked to between -1 and -9hps, etc).  So, likely there's a few PC classed folks wandering around with this Adept... whatever sorts of things he's been fighting.

As for the dragon, by real plan is to animate him once he's dead. 

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #689 on: July 21, 2011, 07:01:48 PM »
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)

Once again, due to having Mother Cyst he can dominate random people he's fought (anyone who was grappled and pinned by his other minions so he could land the effect, anyone knocked to between -1 and -9hps, etc).  So, likely there's a few PC classed folks wandering around with this Adept... whatever sorts of things he's been fighting.

As for the dragon, by real plan is to animate him once he's dead. 

JaronK

I'd expect a higher than average number of rogues with this guy.  Necrotic Cyst is a Fort save, Necrotic Domination is a Will save, rogues are bad at both... and they tend to fail hard when they go up against tough undead.  Disguise and Bluff as class skills and they have loads of skill points to invest, don't rely on heavy armor either, they might be able to carry off pretending to be wizards if instructed to.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #690 on: July 21, 2011, 10:37:36 PM »
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)

Once again, due to having Mother Cyst he can dominate random people he's fought (anyone who was grappled and pinned by his other minions so he could land the effect, anyone knocked to between -1 and -9hps, etc).  So, likely there's a few PC classed folks wandering around with this Adept... whatever sorts of things he's been fighting.

As for the dragon, by real plan is to animate him once he's dead. 

JaronK

I'd expect a higher than average number of rogues with this guy.  Necrotic Cyst is a Fort save, Necrotic Domination is a Will save, rogues are bad at both... and they tend to fail hard when they go up against tough undead.  Disguise and Bluff as class skills and they have loads of skill points to invest, don't rely on heavy armor either, they might be able to carry off pretending to be wizards if instructed to.

Im sure he has the Expert from the other thread dominated :)
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #691 on: July 21, 2011, 10:43:06 PM »
Nope, that guy was undead, and thus immune.  Maybe he got the Monk though.  That guy's will save was really low due to dumping Wis, IIRC.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #692 on: July 21, 2011, 11:53:45 PM »
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
I think we should bring this up again: The real test is how these guys contribute to a party.  The 1 v 1 fantasies are a tangent designed to prove that an Adept *can* contribute (he's got something like a 10% chance to kill the dragon on his own, so with a full party of ECL 12 characters he'll definitely be able to do something), and gives an indecisive result as to whether the Monk can contribute (the monk loses 100% of the time, so this test doesn't tell us how effective he might be if given the cover of a group).

Nobody is saying that it's even at all likely that an Adept can solo a dragon of equal CR, just that he makes the dragon work for his meal.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #693 on: July 22, 2011, 04:21:12 AM »
Even if the zombies were all the adept had, and they couldn't hit anything ever, he'd still be contributing to some degree.  Lots of people like something big, tough, and expendable to hide behind, or at least to provide cover from AoOs while they approach.  The monk isn't very big without sucking up to the wizard (or burning wealth on pretending to be one), he isn't very tough ever, and being a PC he'll bitch about being reminded he's expendable.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #694 on: July 22, 2011, 05:11:43 AM »
Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #695 on: July 22, 2011, 05:19:54 AM »
Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #696 on: July 22, 2011, 10:38:17 AM »
Even if the zombies were all the adept had, and they couldn't hit anything ever, he'd still be contributing to some degree.  Lots of people like something big, tough, and expendable to hide behind, or at least to provide cover from AoOs while they approach.  The monk isn't very big without sucking up to the wizard (or burning wealth on pretending to be one), he isn't very tough ever, and being a PC he'll bitch about being reminded he's expendable.
I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).
-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.
-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.
-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!

So really, the adept has been allowed so much plain munchkinery that's he's plain invincible. Not even pun-pun could beat him with all the rule breaking he's allowed in this thread.


Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?
So let me see if get this, you're arguing that you can tear up chunk of flesh from a zombie, that is a mountain of animated flesh, and the zombies are just as fine as before?

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #697 on: July 22, 2011, 11:02:39 AM »
I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).
-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.
-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.
-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!

-Nobody said that, only that falling didn't provoke attacks of opportunity
-It's detectable, if the dragon actually spends a full minute observing. New will saves are allowed if the dominated person is being made to do something that is against their nature, not just something they don't like.
-Not unbeatable disguise rules, but using the actual disguise rules means that at a distance, the dragon most likely can't discern that one of the dominated entities is disguised to look like a cleric controlling the zombies.
-The undeads get to keep the abilities that animating them allows them to keep
-Unconscious targets are considered willing.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #698 on: July 22, 2011, 11:04:08 AM »
WARNING: Do not attempt to facepalm in response to oslecamo's post.  A facepalm of appropriate magnitude would crush the skull of an elephant.

I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
Between teleporting and soft cover, it's not hard to move in a way that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).
It's not homebrew, it's in Libris Mortis.  You don't get a new will save every time you are commanded to do something you don't like, you get a new will save every time you are commanded to do something against your nature (and killing shit isn't against a Hydra's nature).  Nobody is saying that the Dragon can't make a DC 15 Sense Motive check to figure out that the creatures are dominated, they're saying that it takes an entire minute that leaves the dragon vulnerable to attack. 

-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.
Spotting through a well-made disguise that the user takes 20 to make is hard, RAW.

-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.
Actually, this specific build is using a different spell to mass up thralls.  I have no idea what you're talking about, here.

-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!
Helpless = willing.

So really, the adept has been allowed so much plain munchkinery that's he's plain invincible. Not even pun-pun could beat him with all the rule breaking he's allowed in this thread.
Cry more.  You're acting like an idiot, and remaining willfully ignorant of the rules, even as they are explained to you.

Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?
So let me see if get this, you're arguing that you can tear up chunk of flesh from a zombie, that is a mountain of animated flesh, and the zombies are just as fine as before?
Yes, they are.  HP are an abstract.  It's not like a zombie needs it's internal organs anymore, anwyay.

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #699 on: July 22, 2011, 12:13:20 PM »
From the SRD text of Aniamte Dead:

Quote
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

What this means exactly is up to the DM, but I'd treat a corpse that's missing internal organs (as in has a hole inside) but is fine otherwise as ''mostly intact'.

EDIT: even by looking at the default zombie picture in the MM: the thing is missing one hand, one eye and at least part of it's lower entrails (the left side of the lower torso can be seen as empty).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:19:00 PM by LordBlades »