Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2011, 09:37:49 PM »
Socialist.

Sorry no, I'm technically Marxist, but it's close enough.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2011, 09:59:21 PM »
Aren't you the guy who thinks Monks are better than Wizards?
No, I just live in the real world. For instance, I hit the small town cafe up before 2pm, why? Cus free fries and a drink during lunch. I can tuck that money away for tomorrow's meal or maybe some ice cream.

Sobolev, Mix, Nin, the expert, you guys are the people that head there at 3:30 and pay extra for the sides. And that's all there is to it.

Do you have a problem with discussing for pages about the viability of min/maxing various D&D classes on a forum dedicated to min/maxing various D&D classes?

If so I think you might be lost.
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2011, 09:59:32 PM »
Aristocrat has the proficiencies that saves maybe two feats, and diplomacy skills. Probably wouldn't hold up under any optimization at all, but being able to use a reach weapon and heavy armor is going to whup the monk for a few levels.

The Aristocrat has a very solid skill list which opens up the possibility of being a pseud-face for the party, scout (with both listen & spot) and finally if we pumps some points into one or two knowledge skills we can get a nice bonus to combat through Knowledge Devotion.

The only problem with the Aristocrat (besides a lack of class abilities) is that the Marshal class is better in every way.

With that said though I could build a very legitimate Aristocrat build though given a little bit of time.

EDIT: Something like this might work well.

The Aristocrat: Male Middle-Aged Human Aristocrat 5/Beast Heart Adept 1; CR 6; Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 6d8; hp 32; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10; Base Atk +3; Grp +3; Atk +6 melee (1d6+3/18-20x2; rapier) or +7 ranged (1d8+3/x2; 100ft.; longbow); SQ Monstrous Companion (Pegasus); Monster Empathy (+3); Monster Handler; AL LN; SV Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +6; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Bluff +6 (5 ranks +1 cha), Craft (Weaponsmithing) +7 (3 ranks +3 int +1 specialized), Diplomacy +14 (9 ranks +1 cha +4 synergy), Forgery +8 (5 ranks +3 int), Handle Animal +12 (9 ranks +1 cha +2 animal affinity), Intimidate +14 (9 ranks +1 cha +2 synergy +2 apprentice: soldier), Knowledge (Arcana) +8 (5 ranks +3 int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +8 (5 ranks +3 int), Knowledge (Local) +12 (9 ranks +3 int), Listen +5 (5 ranks +0 wis), Ride +14 (9 ranks +1 dex +2 synergy +2 animal affinity), Sense Motive +8 (8 ranks +0 wis), Speak (Common, Draconic, Dwarven & Elven) and Spot +5 (5 ranks +0 wis); Collector of Stories, Never Outnumbered; Animal Affinity, Apprentice (Soldier), Knowledge Devotion, Leadership, Mounted Archery and Mounted Combat.
Traits and Flaws: Specialized (Craft: Weaponsmithing); Frail & Vulnerable

or this.

The Gilded Blade: Male Human Aristocrat 3; CR 3; Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 3d8+6; hp 24; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10; Base Atk +2; Grp +4; Atk +7 melee (1d6+5/18-20x2; rapier); AL LN; SV Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3; Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Bluff +5 (5 ranks +0 cha), Diplomacy +12 (6 ranks +0 cha +6 synergy), Knowledge (Local) +10 (6 ranks +2 int +1 specialized +1 absent minded), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +6 (5 ranks +2 int -2 specialized +1 absent minded), Perform (Weapon Drill) +9 (6 ranks +0 cha +1 BaB +2 combat expertise), Read/Write/Speak (Common, Dwarven & Elven), Sense Motive +6 (6 ranks +0 wis) and Tumble +8 (6 ranks +2 dex); Collector of Stories; Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip and Knowledge Devotion
Traits and Flaws: Absent Minded & Specialized (Knowledge: Local); Murky-Eyed & Shaky
Variants: City-Slicker (Web; Cityscape)


« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 11:10:20 PM by dark_samuari »

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2011, 12:44:40 AM »
Do you have a problem with discussing for pages about the viability of min/maxing various D&D classes on a forum dedicated to min/maxing various D&D classes?

If so I think you might be lost.  :drums
It's less of min/max various class as dump on the Monk by ignoring Skill Prodigality (hell idk if it's official material really), over evaluate DCs (fast fact, if your bonus is high enough to pass on a 20, UMD gives a 50/50 shot of success for all out of combat spells, also it's only 21sp to pay someone else to train an animal to attack), blatantly ignore every other Monk Class features (and ACFs), and whine about books whilist taking Iaijitsu Focus (another fun fact, a monk can take ex-wep-pro(quickrazor) and use them just as well as an expert, and still have the option to fof which becomes superior later on). Heck, at this point a Monk can trade Improved Evasion (which you guys think isn't worth crap so no loss) to remain in a perpetual Blinked state (which halves area damage anyway), and thanks to MiC rules he ripped the Ethereal Reaver's ability and doesn't suffer a miss chance him self, sure it got laughed at because a handful of devils/demons have True Seeing but there is more creatures lacking it then you'll ever get to fight anyway. Blink does some other fun stuff, 50% chance to ignore traps, ignore locked doors, flight (oh yes, it gives it), and even Lifesight can't negate the entire penalty. But omg, Skill Prodigy is unheard of and pretty much replaces the Expert, banhammerz it immediately then talk about how this is optimizing various classes.

And for what I have no idea. I wasn't kidding when I said picking on the Monk is a horrible out of date joke. And by joke, I mean it never was one. Sure you don't know what to do with him, I don't know what the heck to do with a Truenamer but you don't see me complaining. But at least he has some stuff, and continued to get stuff that was better than what he had, and at the end of things is still a viable two level dip. On the other hand, a Fighter makes a better archer than a Ranger and the Druid never stopped outshining them both. The Paladin has watched the Cleric gain more and more ways to emulate every reason you would want to be a paladin while still maintaining virtually full casting. The one useful thing given to the Barbarian (lion totem) did breath some life in his corpse, but then we remembered Psychic Fighter & Martial Adapts so really we just forgot about Anthromorphic Animals since they were 2HD investments. Has anyone here even played a Marshal past level 1? A Samurai? What about a Ninja? From my stand point, you guys are Monk bashing for no other reason than to Monk bash. It has nothing to do with optimization, nothing to do with addressing who gets what, and it's not even about ragging on poor classes. It's needless unwanted arguing over crap, see also the concept of trolling each other.

If you don't like my random comments in your bullshit thread, get over it. Hijacking it would only serve to better it and I haven't even gone that far, yet.
Now watch two supernatural monks beat the crap out of eat other and smile.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2011, 09:35:22 AM »
Do you have a problem with discussing for pages about the viability of min/maxing various D&D classes on a forum dedicated to min/maxing various D&D classes?

If so I think you might be lost.  :drums
It's less of min/max various class as dump on the Monk by ignoring Skill Prodigality (hell idk if it's official material really), over evaluate DCs (fast fact, if your bonus is high enough to pass on a 20, UMD gives a 50/50 shot of success for all out of combat spells, also it's only 21sp to pay someone else to train an animal to attack), blatantly ignore every other Monk Class features (and ACFs), and whine about books whilist taking Iaijitsu Focus (another fun fact, a monk can take ex-wep-pro(quickrazor) and use them just as well as an expert, and still have the option to fof which becomes superior later on). Heck, at this point a Monk can trade Improved Evasion (which you guys think isn't worth crap so no loss) to remain in a perpetual Blinked state (which halves area damage anyway), and thanks to MiC rules he ripped the Ethereal Reaver's ability and doesn't suffer a miss chance him self, sure it got laughed at because a handful of devils/demons have True Seeing but there is more creatures lacking it then you'll ever get to fight anyway. Blink does some other fun stuff, 50% chance to ignore traps, ignore locked doors, flight (oh yes, it gives it), and even Lifesight can't negate the entire penalty. But omg, Skill Prodigy is unheard of and pretty much replaces the Expert, banhammerz it immediately then talk about how this is optimizing various classes.

And for what I have no idea. I wasn't kidding when I said picking on the Monk is a horrible out of date joke. And by joke, I mean it never was one. Sure you don't know what to do with him, I don't know what the heck to do with a Truenamer but you don't see me complaining. But at least he has some stuff, and continued to get stuff that was better than what he had, and at the end of things is still a viable two level dip. On the other hand, a Fighter makes a better archer than a Ranger and the Druid never stopped outshining them both. The Paladin has watched the Cleric gain more and more ways to emulate every reason you would want to be a paladin while still maintaining virtually full casting. The one useful thing given to the Barbarian (lion totem) did breath some life in his corpse, but then we remembered Psychic Fighter & Martial Adapts so really we just forgot about Anthromorphic Animals since they were 2HD investments. Has anyone here even played a Marshal past level 1? A Samurai? What about a Ninja? From my stand point, you guys are Monk bashing for no other reason than to Monk bash. It has nothing to do with optimization, nothing to do with addressing who gets what, and it's not even about ragging on poor classes. It's needless unwanted arguing over crap, see also the concept of trolling each other.

If you don't like my random comments in your bullshit thread, get over it. Hijacking it would only serve to better it and I haven't even gone that far, yet.
Now watch two supernatural monks beat the crap out of eat other and smile.


I find these threads both interesting and amusing.  Also we all know some classes are worse than others.  It's just trying to be illustrated and some people are stubborn.  I also mentioned nearly all of the ACFs you mentioned (I think I neglected Simple Monk because I think it's pretty bad.  It's still a step in the right direction, but it's not like you actually GET anything from it.)

Also, Skill Prodigy wasn't ignored.  It was called out as being obscure and probably not allowed usually, but then allowed.  It just doesn't magically give you all these skills.  It gives you the ability to get the skills if you have the Int, and then Charisma to make them function.  Which usually you don't.  I swear it's like you don't even read this thread.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 09:37:08 AM by Sobolev »
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2011, 01:48:37 PM »
SorO as a rule doesn't read, he just makes stuff up.

And yeah, Skill Protegy wasn't banned.  It was pointed out that trying to use it (which meant pumping Int on a class that already needs Str, Dex, Wis, and Con) was a terrible idea in addition to the fact that it was obscure and setting specific (when the build in question already required a different setting).  This point was proved when Giacomo tried to use it... and as a result had to dump Strength and Wis.  And even that was at Int 14... before that he'd been talking about Monks with Int 18 using the feat.  The resulting build Giacomo made proved the point... he was Str 6, had pitiful combat abilities, as well as pathetic defenses.  He had a few Monk abilities which were handy but all the optimization was done ignoring them, so they weren't well utilized.

The objection wasn't "OMG you made a Monk too powerful" it was "you're not trying to optimize a Monk, you're trying to optimize everything but the Monk class, so that won't prove how strong Monks are... and you still made a pathetic character."

JaronK

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2011, 05:07:35 PM »
Jesus, either I caught a troll or you are just new or dense.

This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.
Count averages. Monks tend to be so fucking bad that they cannot invest too much money towards their initiative.

Quote
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?
Why would he have the exact spells? Because all the best ones are so damn good there is no point in taking anything else. Why take Fireball if you can take Glitterdust? Also, the Monk has no way of going through Obscuring mist, class feature-wise.

Quote
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?
Sadly, Monks are not exactly better in combat.

Quote
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.
And now let us have a look at the PHB. Does the Monk have UMD? No, hence he loses.

Quote
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.
Indeed, not everybody flies. Monks are a perfect example. One of the reasons they have their ass kicked.

Edit: Don't I feel like a retard now. Just typed this answer and saw the thread spanned multiple pages. You guys have been fast. Damn...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 05:09:41 PM by Tshern »

Handy Links

BlackAngelika

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2011, 05:17:10 PM »
That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...

Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 05:20:57 PM by BlackAngelika »

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2011, 05:47:19 PM »
Don't worry, theres always the Commoner to laugh at.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Halinn

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2011, 06:20:28 PM »
Don't worry, theres always the Commoner to laugh at.

What, and ignore chicken infested shenanigans? Nah, I say, scorn the aristocraft most.

Shiki

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Mindraped
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2011, 06:23:24 PM »
^The Warrior... An Aristocrat actually get skills.
"An ally of truth."

Soundtrack of the week:
Kagamine Rin - Antichlorobenzene (ft. Kagamine Ren)

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2011, 06:26:05 PM »
That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...

Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead

No one forced you to read the thread.

The point is that the monk is being totally outclassed by NPC classes. This thread is for educational and entertainment purposes....making this edutainment.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2011, 06:49:57 PM »
Don't worry, theres always the Commoner to laugh at.

What, and ignore chicken infested shenanigans? Nah, I say, scorn the aristocraft most.

Aristocrat can do quite a bit if focused in their construction.

BlackAngelika

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2011, 06:59:46 PM »
That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...

Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead

No one forced you to read the thread.
Monk is tier 5, Adept is tier 4, sooo... you're proving, what again?

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2011, 07:50:09 PM »
That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...

Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead

No one forced you to read the thread.
Monk is tier 5, Adept is tier 4, sooo... you're proving, what again?
An opportunity for me to tell him about the wild monk and it's general awesomeness.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2011, 08:53:39 PM »
Speaking of variants ... there is one and only one (egad geometry language) variant for Adept.
Eberron Adept gets one domain on it's list, without adding a slot.
That opens up more domain list fun and games.
There is a "flaw" that should have been called an ACF.
Forlorn takes away the Familiar, and gives a bonus Feat in return.
Not bad.



Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.

Huh?

 :P ;)
[spoiler][/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2011, 09:06:55 PM »
Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2011, 09:21:45 PM »
Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)


Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.

6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2011, 11:06:35 PM »
Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)


Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.

6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2011, 11:37:23 PM »
Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)


Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.

6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).
Pluh-ease.

Take 1gp, craft 2gp.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]