Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Sir Giacomo]

Alright. Lets's take a look here:

On Sneaking and Surprise: You do not have the Darkstalker feat. The dragon has Blindsense. You cannot sneak up on it under any circumstances once you enter the radius of it's Blindsense, so you have no chance of surprising it. You do still get the 50% miss chance if you are invisible. I do agree the dragon cannot and would not bother to hide from you.

On Initiative: As I mentioned in the previous post, the dragon has Nerveskitter, this is a first level spell which grants +5 to Initiative. As it has 7 or 8 feats which can't really help it much (Beyond the obvious Multiattack, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Recover Breath and Entangling Exhalation or other metabreath) it could take improved init as well to make it's modifier +9.

Yes, in that particular case, with improved initiative and that spell up, the dragon is on par with the monk in initiative. Still, as I outlined, the monk will be able to perform quite well EVEN IF he loses initative.

On Tactics: Your Reflex save starts off at +11. The basic DC for the Dragon's breath weapon is 25, giving you a 13/20 or 65% chance to fail. Because you gave up your Evasion, you are always going to take some damage, so even if you pass you take half damage and are Entangled from it's Entangling Exhalation feat for the next 1d4 rounds, and it recharges it's breath in 1d4-1 rounds. With the -4 Dex from entangled, your Reflex and AC both drop by 2, as do your attack rolls, and your movement speed is cut in half.

At this point the Dragon can merely keep flying 250 feet up, fly down within 50 feet of the ground, breathe, and fly back up every time it can breathe until you die.

Even without blink, the monk could dimension door out of the web, and then at a 200ft charge rain do his snap kick/double stun shtick. Or he readies a partial charge when the dragon gets near to breath, exchange double snap kick attack for one breath weapon. Dragon does not win this exchange.

You don't seem to have any ranged or flying options that can reach it at 250ft.

Alternatively, he can Grapple you at +39 to which your bonus while enlarged is, assuming use of the Torc, +24.

Largely a non-issue due to blink.

Also for his trip, He has a +8 from Str, +12 from size, +8 from size and +4 from having more than 2 legs (as described in Trip so 20 yes, but why in the hell would he ever be walking? He's a dragon in an open cave, you can't trip something that is flying, and with Flyby Attack he never needs to touch the ground. He can hover 15 feet up and still hit you with every attack.

In one full round attack, either of you is going to be doing an enormous amount of damage to the other. Your damage is superior, but he has significantly more attacks, is much more resilient, and finds it much easier to hit you. A Huge dragon's attack action with multiattack is: Bite/2 Claws/2 Wings/Tailslap, +27/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25. Let's Power Attack for 9, hitting you on everything but a 1 for a total of 2d8+17, 2(2d6+13), 2(1d8+13), 2d6+21. 4d8+4d6+90, which almost double (avg. 124) kills you in one full attack action, so you likely die even with your 50% miss chance. There is a reason people don't like going toe to toe with dragons.

On Party Assistance: Everything you mentioned: Stunning Opponents, teleporting allies, sneaking, battlefield control, and Diplomacy can be done equally or better by the Adept using his skills or the proper spells which exist on his spell list.

How did you get this impression? The adept has no teleporting on his spell list, is the worst sneaker trying to be sneaky that I ever saw, and his zombies control nothing in the dragon`s case, they cannot even trip. Also, where is the stunning ability of JaronK`s adept? And what DC would that have?

His stuns and possible use of poison is a good idea, but can only target one saving throw (Fortitude) which is the strongest save on all monsters on average after CR 8. The Adept can target Reflex (Web for example) Fort and Will, thereby selecting the opponent's weakest save to strike, giving him more tactical options. You have very little to counter a flying opponent with ranged attacks.

It is entirely possible that you could kill this dragon in single combat. However, not nearly as easily as JaronK's adept can (2 touch attacks against AC 8), and it would require much more on you getting lucky with a few significantly important dice rolls / being in an area tailored to support you and not the dragon.

[TenaciousJ]

• And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.

One feature of the adept vs. the entire monk class.  That monk has no answer to the tactics laid out for the dragon.  The adept does.  I'll show this thread to any of my players who are inexperienced enough to want to play a monk, and tell them to have another character sheet ready.

[Lycanthromancer]

And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.

One feature of the adept vs. the entire monk class.  That monk has no answer to the tactics laid out for the dragon.  The adept does.  I'll show this thread to any of my players who are inexperienced enough to want to play a monk, and tell them to have another character sheet ready.

And it's one feature that costs very little. Use the spell one day (with a few hundred gp in gems) and keep the benefits until they are killed.

[Sobolev]

I'm lost on why SG's monk moves 100ft a round, level 12 monks only get +40, which is only 70.  Perhaps an item I overlooked, or possibly some exaggeration on his part.

Also, JaronK assumes going to the monster's lair, because that's what you do in Dungeons and Dragons.   You enter Dungeons, and fight Dragons.  It's not called "Ambush by Dragons While Wandering Around"

[Sir Giacomo]

1) It can be any item, but some of the abilities you can add to it have prerequisites. You seemingly just tried to ignore that
2) They're not saying that the monk is winning because it is heavily optimized. They are arguing that the monk is losing, in spite of being more optimized.
3) They do not have the same effect. See the quote I provided earlier, where it says that you still have to pay for it.
4) The zombies have higher AC and hit points. They also have damage reduction. These zombies would lose alone against the dragon, but the point is not if the animate dead spell can defeat it, but if the adept, including said castings of animate dead can. Given that the zombies have a fair impact on the tactics of the dragon (it probably the loses the option of going within reach of the adept and full-attacking him), it might happen.

[SorO_Lost]

This thread lowers your IQ by 1 point for every page that you read.

You should remember that the next time I make an ass of my self.

I heard mention of JaronK's Adapt and Gia's Monk battling a CR 12 dragon. Did it happen yet? No? Can it be a CR 12 Steel Dragon using just as many rule abuses as them? I'm bound to have a gish build somewhere...

[TenaciousJ]

I wonder what kind of dragon lives to that age and hasn't spent any of its accumulated wealth (that's what dragons do, right?) on at least stealth-proofing its lair to the point that mundane sneaking doesn't work so easily.  Is this monk disabling traps and preventing magical detection too to retain the element of surprise?

EDIT: I'm not even going to tell them "Monks suck."  I'm going to ask them to read with a critical eye because any half-intelligent person is going to see that "the best monk player ever" cannot convince anyone the class is worthwhile as written.

[Shinzen]

Even without blink, the monk could dimension door out of the web, and then at a 200ft charge rain do his snap kick/double stun shtick. Or he readies a partial charge when the dragon gets near to breath, exchange double snap kick attack for one breath weapon. Dragon does not win this exchange.

Blink reduces the damage, but Entangling Exhalation is not about damage. Lets put the math in here, 7d6/2 = 31.5/2= 16 damage. Plus another 1d6 per round for the next (average 2) rounds. It's not a Web. The Entangling Exhalation feat entangles you for 1d4 rounds, not an area, you the target. You cannot blink to escape it, and it lowers your movement speed preventing your Winged Vest from reaching the height the dragon can spring attack from. So once you have taken any damage from the breath weapon, you can be kited to death. But you don't even need to be, the above damage reduces your HP below the threshold of being killed by 50% of the damage from a single full attack action.

Also, when you attack, your two attacks have a 30% (21) and 55% (16) chance of missing the dragon, even if he is flat footed. You likely miss at least one of your attacks per round, giving the dragon the same 50% damage reduction you have. Decisive Strike gives you a single attack as a full round action, doing 24d6+20 averages out at 104. 70% of which is 72. It takes you on average 3.5 rounds to kill this dragon. It kills you in 1-2. You can't win a straight up punching match without some luck.

You can in fact Blink out of the Grapple, which does make that part obsolete. However, if you lose initiative you do not have Uncanny Dodge. As such, on your first round of combat, you are flat footed, meaning you cannot take an Immediate Action to activate your Blink ability in response to the Dragon's attack, and therefore explode.

I would not (and it would be in my opinion a dick move) to make targeting opponents' saves require a knowledge check. It is fairly common sense in a world such as this that the guy in armor probably can't dodge well, the guy dodging around a lot and sneaking probably isn't tough, and the raging barbarian probably doesn't have a lot of self-control.

You keep mentioning "I would do X" or "If I was DMing I would do Y" but that doesn't matter. What you would do does not have an effect on how powerful the monk is in a neutral setting. I am ruling based on pure numbers, I don't care about metagaming at this point, we are running numbers. You can make a house rule that you can't go to the bathroom without a Knowledge: Bowels check, but it doesn't effect class balance on a global scale.

JaronK's ray has only a 55ft range, yes. But the dragon has to be within 50 feet to effect him with anything. A readied action from JaronK can put a beam in the dragon's face if he was to try. Regardless of being Entangled. He also still has over 2000 gp left which is plenty for a couple of scrolls or items which can use "Assay Spell Resistance" to make both rays unstoppable.

In your case, if you are Entangled, you have no way of reaching the dragon. And if you use your surprise round to charge, you did not Enlarge, and cannot trip the dragon at all even if we assumed you could trip a flying opponent (which is kind of silly, and I've never read anything which said you could. I'd like a link.) Also if you did not Enlarge, you do about 33% less damage, making killing the thing a 5-7 round affair.

Also, where are you getting a +9 Initiative? You have 4 from Improved and no Dex.

@ Tenacious: I tend to agree, hell he's got no Hide in Plain Sight ability, and the chamber the dragon is in might not have any cover, I'm not seeing how he's always getting the drop on it.

[Bozwevial]

Also, where are you getting a +9 Initiative? You have 4 from Improved and no Dex.

The Warning enhancement. Unfortunately, since the item familiar in question isn't a weapon, it can't have that enhancement applied to it. It can't have any enhancement attached to it, in fact, since it's an amulet and not a weapon, piece of armor, or shield. So the monk's initiative bonus is only +4.

[Shinzen]

Also, where are you getting a +9 Initiative? You have 4 from Improved and no Dex.

The Warning enhancement. Unfortunately, since the item familiar in question isn't a weapon, it can't have that enhancement applied to it. It can't have any enhancement attached to it, in fact, since it's an amulet and not a weapon, piece of armor, or shield. So the monk's initiative bonus is only +4.

Ah, I see. Warning is specifically weapon only, as are most of the weapon enhancements for a flat money cost (I would not allow Everbright on that thing to give you acid immunity for that little) but an Amulet of Natural Attacks can be given enhancement bonuses to attack and weapon special abilities that replace +1's.

[Bozwevial]

Ah, I see. Warning is specifically weapon only, as are most of the weapon enhancements for a flat money cost (I would not allow Everbright on that thing to give you acid immunity for that little) but an Amulet of Natural Attacks can be given enhancement bonuses to attack and weapon special abilities that replace +1's.

Hmm. True. I'd still argue that you can't apply the Warning enhancement from the item familiar ability, though, since the necklace is a wondrous item.

[weenog]

Ah, I see. Warning is specifically weapon only, as are most of the weapon enhancements for a flat money cost (I would not allow Everbright on that thing to give you acid immunity for that little) but an Amulet of Natural Attacks can be given enhancement bonuses to attack and weapon special abilities that replace +1's.

Hmm. True. I'd still argue that you can't apply the Warning enhancement from the item familiar ability, though, since the necklace is a wondrous item.

I thought the only DM judgment calls that matter here are SG's.  They're all he has to cling to after cheating his ass off and still losing.

If this guy had a boner for fighters instead of monks I'd swear he was Aelryinth.

[X-Codes]

Final assessment: The Adept can potentially solo the dragon, nevermind contributing to a group, and the monk needs the rest of his party to buy him enough time to self-buff for 2-3 rounds before he's got a 70% chance to skillsteal the dragon, or a 30% chance to cost the party 5k worth of diamonds... again.

It's kind of hard to believe that there's only a single tier of difference between the two.  You'd think it would be a 3 and a 5 or a 4 and a 6 competing here.

[weenog]

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.

If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.

[Kajhera]

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.

If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.

Quick, go find someone who can drag a Commoner down two tiers!

[X-Codes]

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.

If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.

Quick, go find someone who can drag a Commoner down two tiers!

8 Con and the Toughness anti-feat.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.

If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.

Quick, go find someone who can drag a Commoner down two tiers!

8 Con and the Toughness anti-feat.

There's also the flaw and the trait which reduce your hp by one such that you can get 0 hp at every level, which means if you perform ANY action that requires effort you fall unconscious and begin dying.

[SorO_Lost]

Warning
At no point in this thread am I commenting in regard to Gia's builds. Telling me I'm wrong because Gia is an idiot is fruitless.

Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.

This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.

If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.

Best comment in this thread so far.

Why?

Ok, CR 12 White Dragon right?
Stats: 241HP, AC 28 (T9, FL28), +27/+22/+22/+22 melee (2d8+8, 2d6+4, 1d8+4), 7d6 [Cold] Breath Weapon and 1st level spells.

My Monk (posted awhile back, the one with the failed idea of Waithstrike Fukimi-Bari Poisoning)
Stats: 100HP, AC -20 (or w/e, who cares. AC blows goats), +27/+27 melee (3d10+54, 2 neg levels, +1d4 force, +1d6 good, +1d4 piercing), immunity to [Cold], and has a 50% chance to ignore spells and maintains full-concealment against the dragon.

...Said Monk is ECL 9, spent less than half it's WBL, no Distance/Throwing enhancement shenanigans, can UMD/Freddy up some death and could kill the dragon in a single turn 99% of the time. Srsly, you need to make comments like super trapped lair or optimized dragon for things not to simply be a write off. idk what Gia's monk is pulling, but I'm pretty sure its getting it's ass kicked despite being three levels higher given Gia's lack of care towards using charging, ACFs in general, accounting for races, and won't even bring him self to use enhancement shenanigans even if the people he is arguing against supports it.

[Lycanthromancer]

That doesn't mean Giacomo is any less wrong.