Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217730 times)

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lans

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #440 on: July 14, 2011, 01:36:47 AM »
Next up-Warrior

And for the season finale the monk will take on the truenamer
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #441 on: July 14, 2011, 03:35:30 AM »
So we've gone from trying to beat Batman to failing against NPC classes, how the mighty have fallen.

Sigh. If I were to start a "commoner vs wizard" thread, would the mere existence of such a thread mean the wizard sure must be a sucky class? Thought so.

@JaronK: Maybe I am missing something here. Please do me a favour and show to me how you think a typical fight of a 12th level adept with his animated zombie hydras would play out vs a, say CR 12 dragon.

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:42:49 AM by Sir Giacomo »

Solo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #442 on: July 14, 2011, 03:42:57 AM »
I'm sure it'd be better than trying to incapacitate the dragon with Stunning Fist. Man, would that suck, given a dragon's typically huge fort save.

Or grappling it. Grappling a dragon would be a pretty bad idea as well.

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weenog

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #443 on: July 14, 2011, 03:45:27 AM »
Sigh. If I were to start a "commoner vs wizard" thread, would the mere existence of such a thread mean the wizard sure must be a sucky class? Thought so.

If the wizard got generous concessions and the commoner was assumed to be denied his best class features any time they made the wizard look bad, and the wizard at his best were still struggling to even get the commoner to notice him, let alone be as useful as the commoner, and the wizard supporters were making excuses every time the commoner outdid the wizard instead of showing a wizard that could get the job done, then yes, that would mean the wizard must be a sucky class.

Good luck setting up a thread that looks like that.
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #444 on: July 14, 2011, 07:04:53 AM »
Sigh. If I were to start a "commoner vs wizard" thread, would the mere existence of such a thread mean the wizard sure must be a sucky class? Thought so.

If the Commoner kept winning?  Yeah.

Quote
@JaronK: Maybe I am missing something here. Please do me a favour and show to me how you think a typical fight of a 12th level adept with his animated zombie hydras would play out vs a, say CR 12 dragon.

- Giacomo

Well, dragon fights are often in large lairs, so I'd try to hit him with a Web when he's near a wall to cause him to stop flying (and, due to stalling, make him fall).  Then the hydras could attack him.  Or maybe metamagic'd Scorching Rays if that wouldn't work (12d6 damage from touch attacks hurts, and with the right metamagic it could be impressive... it's not enough to kill on its own but it could certainly support a party in such an attack).  Maybe he'd just buff the party's stats.  After all, this is a caster, and thus has options... the Hydras are more for taking out ground based opponents (but you knew that, that's why you picked a flier).  The Hydras are just the effects of one of his spells.  And then once the dragon is dead, I'd animate him, since dragons make for awesome animated dead (see the Draconomicon rules for their special stuff with regards to animate dead).  I'd probably make him a Zombie, because evidently I didn't have any flying undead at the time.  So now I have a nice flying zombie dragon mount with an insane number of hitpoints, making the character even stronger.  That's always fun.

So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon?  A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12).  You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version?  How would they do it?  How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #445 on: July 14, 2011, 07:41:26 AM »
Also, dragons are some of the toughest monsters ever published due to their amazing racial HD. Even casters, who have not prepared against dragons can have serious problems with them.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #446 on: July 14, 2011, 08:42:52 AM »
So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon?  A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12).  You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version?  How would they do it?  How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?

JaronK

How would a leveled up expert from that same thread do?

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #447 on: July 14, 2011, 09:17:59 AM »
So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon?  A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12).  You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version?  How would they do it?  How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?

JaronK

How would a leveled up expert from that same thread do?

Probably better than the monk(not by much though; I still expect it to lose and badly). At least the expert (assuming we're talking about the necropolitan with psionic minor creation and the bat mount) has a way to fly and some credible ranged threat(poisoned crossbow bolts). The monk is basically a sitting duck for strafing runs with the breath weapon due to lack of a credible ranged threat and flight.

These being said, the fact that both classes would probably lose horribly(vs one of the most powerful creatures for their CR mind you) is a very poor indication of their relative power level. A 12th level optimized wizard (or any other tier 1 class for that matter) can most likely completely obliterate a 12 level tier 3 and below. That doesn't mean all tier 3 and below classes are  relatively equal in power.


Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #448 on: July 14, 2011, 11:27:54 AM »
The best expert from that thread would visit the white dragon in a dream ... and convert it to the worship of Bahamut.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #449 on: July 14, 2011, 01:52:46 PM »
How would a leveled up expert from that same thread do?

One of the Experts would just convert the Dragon to his side before the fight even started via Lucid Dreaming.

The less silly Expert would at least be flying around doing poison strafe runs... with the Dragon's high Fort Save, that would be tough to land, but the Expert at least can be a threat and if he gets lucky with a poison shot he'd do some serious damage.  The Dragon has a +17 fort save, and by level 12 the Expert can afford a +1 Splitting Longbow of Assassination (using Lesser Bracers of Armor for proficiency, they're cheap) to raise save DCs, plus he'd likely be using Sinmaker's Surprise at this point (since he could have Master of Poisons by then so the acid damage isn't a problem, and he'd like the better save DCs than Black Lotus).  If someone cast Greater Magic Weapon on him the save DCs for his poison would be 29, otherwise it's 25.  He'd have four attacks, but have trouble hitting (he's just an Expert, after all), though a 28 isn't impossible to hit.  But if he landed a dose of his poison it would deal 2d6 con damage, which averages at 7, thus reducing the dragon's further saves and meaning he'd have a chance.  Also, since the dragon has 21 HD, a single poison hit would effectively do 63 hp of damage in addition to the 3d6 acid damage.  If he got lucky he could take the dragon down really fast this way... if his first hit lands poison, all the rest become more likely, and every successive hit increases the chances even further.   Three poison hits would kill the dragon outright, so he's got a decent shot.  Heck, it's theoretically possible that he just kills the dragon in the first round, though that would require hitting three times and the dragon failing a save three times (technically with amazing rolls two hits could kill the 21 con dragon, but that seems even more far fetched).  Note that the dragon could take down the Expert very quickly... his saving grace is that he's attacking from a distance so he can avoid full attacks while delivering his own, and his mount is a lot more maneuverable (most likely, as I expect he's got a better mount by level 12.  Desmoderu Warbat at the very least).

Note that I think a well made Monk could be useful too... but not the stupid skillmonkey ones that Giacomo made.  You'd need someone that could be a threat to fliers and had the mobility to actually deal with the dragon (or the ranged attacks to do it).

JaronK

ninjarabbit

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #450 on: July 14, 2011, 04:26:47 PM »
Poison use was my first idea for fighting the dragon.

Heck the adept (or expert) could buy a scroll of minor creation for 700 gps and use it to get 30,000 or so doses of black lotus extract (3d6 con initial damage, 3d6 con secondary damage, DC 20) for 7 hours, enough for the adept and his undead to last the whole adventuring day. Sooner or later the dragon is going to have a bad roll and you could put the extract in vials so it become a ranged touch attack and the dragon only has a touch AC of 9 so it won't be hard to spam throwing poison between yourself, your familiar, and any undead or animals (like apes) capable of throwing things.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #451 on: July 14, 2011, 04:35:44 PM »
Heck the adept (or expert) could buy a scroll of minor creation for 700 gps and use it to get 30,000 or so doses of black lotus extract (3d6 con initial damage, 3d6 con secondary damage, DC 20) for 7 hours, enough for the adept and his undead to last the whole adventuring day. Sooner or later the dragon is going to have a bad roll and you could put the extract in vials so it become a ranged touch attack and the dragon only has a touch AC of 9 so it won't be hard to spam throwing poison between yourself, your familiar, and any undead or animals (like apes) capable of throwing things.

The Expert build in question actually used Hidden Talent to get Psionic Minor Creation, which is what he was using to get the Sinmaker's Surprise.  He could do Black Lotus, but I think the higher DC (24 instead of 20) is an important advantage against a monster with such a high Fort save.  Sinmaker's Surprise is also vegetable based, doing 2d6 Con/2d6 Con and also does 1d6 acid damage for three rounds when it hits.

But good point about using touch attacks... this character could have a few vials if he wanted to go that route.  I think SS is contact, though I'm not sure... I know Black Lotus is.  Personally, I'd rather keep a decent amount of distance between the Expert and the Dragon, just because I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of attacks!

Note that nothing stops the Adept from putting poison on the mouths of the hydras if he's using a similar trick.  9 poison attacks really hurts.

JaronK

Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #452 on: July 14, 2011, 05:13:55 PM »
Sinmaker's Surprise is injury 24 or ingested 18.

weenog

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #453 on: July 14, 2011, 05:16:44 PM »
Note that nothing stops the Adept from putting poison on the mouths of the hydras if he's using a similar trick.  9 poison attacks really hurts.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #454 on: July 14, 2011, 05:19:03 PM »
Since Hydras are undead, you could theoretically apply it like a lacquer.

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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #455 on: July 14, 2011, 05:22:10 PM »
Exactly.  Just paint it on.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #456 on: July 14, 2011, 06:17:51 PM »
I demand an image of this. I can only pray that Sinmaker's Surprise is some ridiculous color, like hot pink or fluorescent orange.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #457 on: July 14, 2011, 06:48:50 PM »
I demand an image of this. I can only pray that Sinmaker's Surprise is some ridiculous color, like hot pink or fluorescent orange.
Fire and pinstripes.

And skulls too, but those are natural.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #458 on: July 14, 2011, 07:11:10 PM »
... late Thank You to Lyca.


I demand an image of this. I can only pray that Sinmaker's Surprise is some ridiculous color, like hot pink or fluorescent orange.

Best I can google fast and click the I Feel "Lucky" Button too ... PG-13 rated.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #459 on: July 14, 2011, 07:38:53 PM »
... late Thank You to Lyca.
So in appreciation you show me girls?

C'mon, man! What'd I ever do to you?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]