Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Sir Giacomo]

I mean seriously, to pick a random critter, how about a Skeletal Storm Giant?  Made by someone with Desecrate and Corpse Crafter, we're talking about something with 19d12+76 (199 hp), Str 43, Dex 20, an attack set of +23/+18 with his Greatsword for 4d6+24 or two slams and two claw attacks at +23/+23/+18/+18 for 1d6+16 and 1d8+8 respectively,  or two Composite Longbow shots at +12/+7 for 3d6+16, initiative +9, AC 21 (with the default Breastplate, it could go up), Immunity to cold as well as most Fort saves and a bunch of other things, DR 5/Bludgeoning, and saves of Ref +11, Fort +6, and Will +11.  Plus he can be healed indefinitely by a single casting of Black Sand, or by a Necrosis Carnex.  And if you have random other gear he could use (for example some of the treasure he came with) you can let him use it until you're at a place where you can sell it.

Now, notice how much more durable that guy is than any of the Monks you've made (and note that 10HD critters turned into Zombies are generally even more durable).  Either these guys are totally survivable, or you're admitting that your Monks all have an extremely high fatality rate.  Which is it?

12th level monk in the legendary fighter thread

Out of curiosity, how much do the Monks you like to make spend in charges off wands per encounter?  It's more than that per encounter, isn't it?

[Sobolev]

[spoiler]

I mean seriously, to pick a random critter, how about a Skeletal Storm Giant?  Made by someone with Desecrate and Corpse Crafter, we're talking about something with 19d12+76 (199 hp), Str 43, Dex 20, an attack set of +23/+18 with his Greatsword for 4d6+24 or two slams and two claw attacks at +23/+23/+18/+18 for 1d6+16 and 1d8+8 respectively,  or two Composite Longbow shots at +12/+7 for 3d6+16, initiative +9, AC 21 (with the default Breastplate, it could go up), Immunity to cold as well as most Fort saves and a bunch of other things, DR 5/Bludgeoning, and saves of Ref +11, Fort +6, and Will +11.  Plus he can be healed indefinitely by a single casting of Black Sand, or by a Necrosis Carnex.  And if you have random other gear he could use (for example some of the treasure he came with) you can let him use it until you're at a place where you can sell it.

Now, notice how much more durable that guy is than any of the Monks you've made (and note that 10HD critters turned into Zombies are generally even more durable).  Either these guys are totally survivable, or you're admitting that your Monks all have an extremely high fatality rate.  Which is it?

12th level monk in the legendary fighter thread

Out of curiosity, how much do the Monks you like to make spend in charges off wands per encounter?  It's more than that per encounter, isn't it?

[/spoiler]
The fact that "half of all of your encounters providing viable skeletons" isn't enough skeletons for you blows my mind.  You don't think HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU FIGHT BEING A REASONABLE SKELETON is enough?

I sort of agree on Monk vs Lone Skele, but your example of fighting an Adept leaves out that at that level Adepts have See Invisibility, at that level Adepts can just Polymorph in to something that flies and leave, at that level Adepts could have Stoneskin, at that level the Adept might have concealment from Deeper Darkness (this depends on the situation), at that level the Adept probably has a Handle Animal pet as well, at that level the Adept has Invisibility, at that level the Adept has a familiar, possibly an improved familiar, Adepts are Wisdom casters so they might have a somewhat okay spot (enough to beat a monk who doesn't actually have a fair number of points in Hide but probably not enough for someone maxing it) , and oh yeah:

D&D is not a pvp game.  Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.  

[SorO_Lost]

D&D is not a pvp game.  Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.

+1.

The role of tracker/assassin/scout/melee/w/e < dude with 6th level spells.
Unless we're talking warmage, his spell list sucks.

[snakeman830]

D&D is not a pvp game.  Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.

+1.

The role of tracker/assassin/scout/melee/w/e < dude with 6th level spells.
Unless we're talking warmage, his spell list sucks.

So does the Healer, but at least they provide a valuable service (just not one to devote a full character to).

[Midnight_v]

D&D is not a pvp game.  Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.

I have to agree with you Soblev...

There have been several times in several threads that I've suggested this the one that really hops to mind is that "A litlle lock build for you" when were were talking about that fighter vs a druid, and I recall thinking "Your trick is really good", but once you start bringing extra-actions to the table, there's very few single tricks that compete.

[ninjarabbit]

Here's what a 12th level adept brings to the table just with his class abilities:

-the ability to cast up to 4th level spells from a pretty decent list, plenty of combat and utility applications there
-up to 48 HD of undead, again plenty of combat and utility applications
-a familiar, way too many potential good things it can do for a short list
-possibly a pretty good animal via handle animal skill, again plenty of combat and utility applications

The simple fact is a monk cannot match that action economy or usefullness to a party just with his class abilities alone.

[Sir Giacomo]

The fact that "half of all of your encounters providing viable skeletons" isn't enough skeletons for you blows my mind.  You don't think HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU FIGHT BEING A REASONABLE SKELETON is enough?

It is not enough because I think I have shown that vs CR 12 challenges these skeletons (or even zombies) do not last long enough to be a viable, affordable tactics.

I sort of agree on Monk vs Lone Skele,

Thank you. I hope that JaronK will also get convinced.

but your example of fighting an Adept leaves out that at that level Adepts have See Invisibility,

They do not have it up permanently; it lasts only 120 minutes. They CAN cast it when they suspect, but spot and listen are not among their class skills and see invisibility is no help at all vs a class using hide and move silently. Even with +6 WIS at level 12, have the familiar nearby for alertness, use cross-class full ranks and masterwork items, plus a +5 item, it may not be enough vs a monk able to surprise charge from 100ft away (-10 to spot/listen).

at that level Adepts can just Polymorph in to something that flies and leave,

They could, but only 1/day

at that level Adepts could have Stoneskin,

at that level the Adept might have concealment from Deeper Darkness (this depends on the situation),

It really does.

at that level the Adept probably has a Handle Animal pet as well,

at that level the Adept has Invisibility,

Again, only not up permanently and needs to be cast first. Ah, and the monk also has it (even in an improved invisibility version since he stays invisible when attacking).

at that level the Adept has a familiar, possibly an improved familiar,

Adepts are Wisdom casters so they might have a somewhat okay spot (enough to beat a monk who doesn't actually have a fair number of points in Hide but probably not enough for someone maxing it) ,

See above

and oh yeah:
D&D is not a pvp game.  Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party. 

[Sobolev]

I feel the need to start at the beginning with you, on an unrelated note.

Do you understand why a monk straight up loses to someone casting Entangle?

Edit: Also, I don't know why you "Ehhhhh" to the Adept having an animal companion, as well as skeleton minions.  Possibly more than one.  That's what he can do.

[Sir Giacomo]

No, please explain it to me. Although, before doing so remember that entangle is not on the adept spell list.

Meanwhile, also...

Here's what a 12th level adept brings to the table just with his class abilities:

-the ability to cast up to 4th level spells from a pretty decent list, plenty of combat and utility applications there
-up to 48 HD of undead, again plenty of combat and utility applications
-a familiar, way too many potential good things it can do for a short list
-possibly a pretty good animal via handle animal skill, again plenty of combat and utility applications

The simple fact is a monk cannot match that action economy or usefullness to a party just with his class abilities alone.

All of this is a good idea - and adepts this way can make decent BBEGs with minions.
But in an adventuring group going against CR 12 encounters?
I feel, when used actively for combat, the losses in animated dead, animals and familiars are over time too expensive for the adept to uphold. It looks good in theory when the adept, say, is astride a warbeast bat and with 48 HD undead marching underneath and his owl familiar scouting ahead meet the first CR 12 encounter. But after that? What even about the rest of the day? Will the rest of the group be OK with such an army accompanying them?

I dunno. What do the others think?

- Giacomo

[weenog]

Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit.  I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that.  It gives you away to new readers, man.

[SorO_Lost]

Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit.  I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that.  It gives you away to new readers, man.

But...

[Solo]

I find it humorous that Sir Giacomo thinks the Adept will only have Polymorph 1/day when even his UMD using monks have partially charged wands of it so they can use Polymorph on every encounter.

Something similar could be said for his comments on Handle Animal as well.

Incidentally, when it comes to Undead doing stuff, do we all agree that you can use them as a source for power, like wind in a windmill?

[JaronK]

Sure, only it's more regular than a windmill... it's really more like a watermill.  Interestingly enough, the ancient romans had automated factories powered by rivers, which were used to grind grain.  I imagine similar technology could easily exist in a D&D world, and the ability to put such factories anywhere would make them more widespread and help them adapt the technology to other things (such as powering grinding wheels, raising mechanical elevators, etc).  Really, I'd think it would lead to assembly lines, since repetitive simple tasks is what mindless undead do best.

JaronK

[Solo]

Even if not, you could always hire a bunch of gnomes or dwarves to make a machine that would do the repetitive simple tasks using the power of the undeadmill.

[JaronK]

I'd imagine it would be Kobolds.  They're so used to making traps anyway, so the idea of "weight or a lever pull causes X interesting thing to happen" would probably really fit well within their cultural ideas.  Of course, they wouldn't necessarily want to help anyone that's not a dragon... I imagine an industrial undead based Kobold society could be really cool in a campaign world.

JaronK

[Solo]

So they'd be like the Morlocks.

[X-Codes]

I'd imagine it would be Kobolds.  They're so used to making traps anyway, so the idea of "weight or a lever pull causes X interesting thing to happen" would probably really fit well within their cultural ideas.  Of course, they wouldn't necessarily want to help anyone that's not a dragon... I imagine an industrial undead based Kobold society could be really cool in a campaign world.

JaronK

I once thought about a society where kobold first-level Clerics and Dread Necromancers were common, and that they take the Improved Turning feat such that they could each command 2 random 1 HD Humanoid skeletons (orcs if they could get their hands on them).  These would be bought from higher-level kobolds casting the appropriate spells, and then said skeletons would serve as bodyguards or menial labor.  The result would be a little bit of nanobots starting at a very early level.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit.  I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that.  It gives you away to new readers, man.

Well, .... Speaking to plants may not appear to be that powerful. It is the tongues/speak with animals/speak with plants combined with diplomacy that is quite useful I think. Certainly equivalent to a 5th level spell if you ask me.

But I start to see...people run out of arguments, so the usual lulz set in. Ah, well...will go to bed again.

Yeah, keep those animated-dead-based economies ideas coming.

- Giacomo

[Sobolev]

Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit.  I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that.  It gives you away to new readers, man.

But I start to see...people run out of arguments, so the usual lulz set in. Ah, well...will go to bed again.

- Giacomo

Every one of your posts has a sentence like this in it.

No one is running out of arguments, you fail to disprove or convince anyone of pretty much anything.  People just tire of repeating themselves.

[Solo]

Or just get ignored.